twostick
Senior Member
An 11.75" FMJRB-body type disc would be head and shoulders above stock 64 11" drums and were engineered to stop a car of similar weight to a 64 Chrysler.
Kevin.
Kevin.
WANTED Disc brakes
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saylor
Senior Member
after switching from front drums to discs i would do the swap on any car i ever own ever 1st thing no question.
try not to die -
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try not to die -
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twostick
Senior Member
It's not quite exactly the same, as a 64 300 is not a C-body so none of the usual spindle options apply.
Kevin
Sorry. I didn't realize the two cars would be that different.
Recently read a letter in Hemmings Muscle Machines where the guy talked about the lining quality. I would bet the available new linings are sub-par... the drums should be pretty good brakes for their period. I would love to see a real comparison test done between the different linings available and NOS linings. In my early days, I remember some cheap brakes not stopping the then newer FWD stuff. I always stuck to top quality brand name stuff after that. Recently, IDK, I spent too long away from the older stuff and just worked on newer or parts available cars in the dealers... I really only realized how F-ed up this all is adding up what I've seen over the past year.
I should be right, but I admit I have not researched it enough and the parts quality is probably making me wrong about the drums. Since I don't have a test mule... Apologies to any who feel harmed.
In the last decade, there has been a real change in the aftermarket brake business. Bendix quit, the EPA has some regulation against copper and metallic linings. Ceramics were once either high end or gee whiz... pretty much substituted in the lining mix for older metallic brakes. The cheapest crap mix seems to be the stuff used for classics... I would say don't trust that any of the old systems with obsolete low selling parts are going to be exactly what they should be, at least until you have tried them.
I should be right, but I admit I have not researched it enough and the parts quality is probably making me wrong about the drums. Since I don't have a test mule... Apologies to any who feel harmed.
In the last decade, there has been a real change in the aftermarket brake business. Bendix quit, the EPA has some regulation against copper and metallic linings. Ceramics were once either high end or gee whiz... pretty much substituted in the lining mix for older metallic brakes. The cheapest crap mix seems to be the stuff used for classics... I would say don't trust that any of the old systems with obsolete low selling parts are going to be exactly what they should be, at least until you have tried them.
fury fan
Old Man with a Hat
Cantflip - I wasn't referring to you specifically earlier about talking someone out of discs, there were other comments about it also.
I wonder how much the asbestos helped the old brake linings to reduce brake fade. Theoretically modern chemistry should be an improvement, however some things the EPA bans will never be equaled (remember Chloridane for keeping bugs our of your house?).
For a 65-72 car OEM discs should be a no-brainer for safety. For this 64 it's a little tougher to find the right parts to retrofit, but afterward it will be the same sensible decision to make. Unless you never drive in traffic, city streets, over 45mph, and/or have complete control of everything in your world.
And I agree 100% with that, lining material plays a huge role into how well those ole drum brakes will work. Yes, you can have inferior quality with a disc pad also, but the disc is a more effective brake, so still superior.
I wonder how much the asbestos helped the old brake linings to reduce brake fade. Theoretically modern chemistry should be an improvement, however some things the EPA bans will never be equaled (remember Chloridane for keeping bugs our of your house?).
For a 65-72 car OEM discs should be a no-brainer for safety. For this 64 it's a little tougher to find the right parts to retrofit, but afterward it will be the same sensible decision to make. Unless you never drive in traffic, city streets, over 45mph, and/or have complete control of everything in your world.
Thanks fury fan. A couple days ago I would have claimed, and to an extent still will, the original drums were ok brakes for their day. Before the wider availability of discs, the difference would have shown up in wet conditions or spirited/mountainous driving fade conditions. I would have agreed that newer brakes are superior, but upgrading to period correct discs is a lot of work for little rewards. I would have made final decisions around part availability, which for some of these cars is a major concern.
The evolution of everything brakes seems to have forgotten this tiny segment of the market. If all you can readily buy is garbage, it is going to be time to seek out a more custom solution. IDK if the smart money is on a small specialty relining company, a change to something with better options (and please make sure they are better), or maybe and upgrade incorporating more modern parts. Last I heard, Brembo didn't care about this market, so the kit systems out there are not directly from an manufacturer of OEM systems.
I think in the future we will have to be very careful here. The changes are not necessarily helping our favorite cars work properly. The "upgrades" may not really be an improvement either. Regardless, I think the cheap parts available from your favorite local store may become more of a hazard if the parts manufacturers dont use a high quality lining material.
Hydraulics are much easier, but so few seem to be interested in matching bore sizes. I think too many folks have either gotten lucky or screwed their brakes up worse by not thinking and researching a conversion all the way through. This really isn't a "see what bolts on" swap.
fury fan
Old Man with a Hat
I don't think we're in such dire straits now, I'd say the worst stages are behind us (as far as offshore sourcing and obsolescence anyway). I believe the aftermarket can be trusted to release safe-to-use parts to the parts stores.
If anything, drum shoes may get harder to find in the future, but there will be specialists like Kanter that can probably be trusted to fill in gaps that arise.
FWIW -
I put 69-73-style discs on my 68 Fury perhaps 8 years ago, kept them as manual brakes, used a mid70s Dodge pickup mast cyl (those were available factory with MDB), stainless braided hoses and an aftermarket combination valve. Nothing really special in parts, but I did bed-in the front brake parts per some internet procedure.
I will say that it is 1 of the 2 best-stopping cars I have had in the last 15 years (including 5 DDs). The other contender was an 88 Dippy copcar, which I upgraded to the larger R-body rotors (again, no special parts and just bedding of pads). Both showed very aggressive/confident braking ability and could cause me a little bit of light-headedness during 35-0 of a heavy stop, and with excellent control, too. *Never* had a drum car stop that well, certainly not with good control due to the 1" travel of a PDrum booster.
So don't count out the OEM stuff, it can perform quite well.
If anything, drum shoes may get harder to find in the future, but there will be specialists like Kanter that can probably be trusted to fill in gaps that arise.
FWIW -
I put 69-73-style discs on my 68 Fury perhaps 8 years ago, kept them as manual brakes, used a mid70s Dodge pickup mast cyl (those were available factory with MDB), stainless braided hoses and an aftermarket combination valve. Nothing really special in parts, but I did bed-in the front brake parts per some internet procedure.
I will say that it is 1 of the 2 best-stopping cars I have had in the last 15 years (including 5 DDs). The other contender was an 88 Dippy copcar, which I upgraded to the larger R-body rotors (again, no special parts and just bedding of pads). Both showed very aggressive/confident braking ability and could cause me a little bit of light-headedness during 35-0 of a heavy stop, and with excellent control, too. *Never* had a drum car stop that well, certainly not with good control due to the 1" travel of a PDrum booster.
So don't count out the OEM stuff, it can perform quite well.
The Moffittman
Member
Alright guys.. Here's the answer for your drum brake problems. I've done this on my '64 Dart with 9" manual drums on all four corners, with excellent results. Make this a sticky.. I will do this to every drum brake car I buy from now on. The car stops hard and fast, plenty of pedal every time.. Combine the drilling instructions in the link with ATE 200 gold brake fluid and I promise you won't be disappointed
WPS:AMC:1963 Rambler American
WPS:AMC:1963 Rambler American
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bulldogchesty
Senior Member
twostick
Senior Member
11" rotor vs 11.75".
.810" thick rotor vs 1.25".
The 4 piston calipers are nice but the rest of the package is less capacity than Factory 11.75 brakes.
Kevin
Agreed... without researching...
4 pistons may allow more pressure to be applied... but losing cooling ability would start to take that away... if it exists... you would have to math the total area for pressures. The biggest thing I think would be availability of a better lining material. I am not shopping, so I will let somebody else crunch numbers and research parts.
fury fan
Old Man with a Hat
Agreed, some math is involved. However, with a smaller-dia rotor the braking torque is reduced, so larger pad/more pressure is required to compensate to match the OEM. That equals more friction and heat, and with a smaller/thinner rotor that is going to increase likelihood of rotor warpage. Now maybe Wilwood has done lots of CFD and designed the rotors for better shedding of that extra heat, but how to know?
Still better than a factory drumbrake, though.
Still better than a factory drumbrake, though.
twostick
Senior Member
Wilwood is mostly a drag car brake company.
That is to say light weight components designed to stop a car from high speed safely, once and then to the pits to cool.
I'm pretty sure most of their products come with a "not for street use" warning label.
Kevin
That is to say light weight components designed to stop a car from high speed safely, once and then to the pits to cool.
I'm pretty sure most of their products come with a "not for street use" warning label.
Kevin
fury fan
Old Man with a Hat
Agreed on Wilwood, that's where their start was. they had some kits that were listed as 'not for street use' and reportedly was because the caliper piston seals weren't adequate against rain and dust (and perhaps just to avoid liability). I believe they have streetable kits that solved that.
The rotor listed above looks like it's sized about the same as the 66-69 Kelsey A-B-body rotor, but I'm not an expert. I believe the C-body Budd rotor was also thinner than the 69-73 rotor, so would be interesting to know how those rotors held up against warpage.
The rotor listed above looks like it's sized about the same as the 66-69 Kelsey A-B-body rotor, but I'm not an expert. I believe the C-body Budd rotor was also thinner than the 69-73 rotor, so would be interesting to know how those rotors held up against warpage.
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