help needed

marty koirtyohann

marty koirtyohann

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washington,mo.
i have a 72 nyb i rebuilt the 440 7 yrs ago i drove it all over to cruises & shows the motir has about 25-30 k on kit . i had a miss so we found the points distrubor had a bad bushiing so i replced i wih a all knew at cardone select unit . they said it ws 100% new pars , the 440 hasa double row /chain stiming set . ater the distrubror weput in now plugs wires now i have a bad problem its getting worse every day i drive it . it sounds like itd cutting out & today it acted like te electronis ignition was going bad as i poped through the crb . bit its a pointdistrubtori wil include a short vid i made & put on my YouTube channel then as i was pulling a hill it bucked so bad it allmost duied but when thr temp his 150 degrees its ok . i has mestumped here is ty vid of it starting this morning in the vid iam talking to my cousin rich hes a 68 y/o mechanic im stumoed coukd tye a1 cardone points xcondenser gie bad> i though they onemesseed wu whenisas hot?
 
First off, holy crap, English!

Second, usually the last thing you touched is the first thing to go bad. If you’re unsure of the distributor, send it out for a proper tuning to Joe White or Halifaxhops.

Check timing to make sure it is within spec. Make sure the hold down is tight as timing can change if it’s loose. Then make sure your ignition system is in good shape: rotor, plugs, wires condenser etc.

The vacuum advance is important as well. Make sure the advance moves when the rpms go up. This can be adjusted by sticking an Allen key into the vacuum nipple and turning accordingly.

Check initial timing without the vacuum canister plugged in, then set timing. Plug it back in and check total timing and adjust as needed for optimal.

Make sure you are using good quality gasoline whether 87 or 93 depending on if you have an E85 440 or E86 440.

Your best friend would be a service manual so you have the specs handy.
 
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Imperial_Eagle_72 said:
First off, holy crap, English!

Second, usually the last thing you touched is the first thing to go bad. If you’re unsure of the distributor, send it out for a proper tuning to Joe White or Halifaxhops.

Check timing to make sure it is within spec. Make sure the hold down is tight as timing can change if it’s loose. Then make sure your ignition system is in good shape: rotor, plugs, wires condenser etc.

The vacuum advance is important as well. Make sure the advance moves when the rpms go up. This can be adjusted by sticking an Allen key into the vacuum nipple and turning accordingly.

Check initial timing without the vacuum canister plugged in, then set timing. Plug it back in and check total timing and adjust as needed for optimal.

Make sure you are using good quality gasoline weather 87 or 93 depending on if you have an E85 440 or E86 440.

Your best friend would be a service manual so you have the specs handy.
Click to expand...
ok the timing is right we checked it when we put the distributor in that was about 150 miles ago (last month ) new cap rotr points & condenser ( the cap ,rotor, points& condendaor was all in the ditributor when we goy it . new plugs &wires last week but te points&condensor was included inth assembly . i wande if they wasa cheap set .i have 10 nos mopars but my cousin didnt put them on/in. i can't help but thnk cardone cut corers with te oints&dcondensor. i wsas rtold by the managr of a loal parts store thir house brand ones rJUNK HE WOULD NEVER USE THEM . HE BUYS HIS FROM A COMPETOR (NAPA) THATS NT SAUYING MUCH FOR OREILLY'S HOUSE BRAND. U WILL HAVE TO KNOW ONE TING ABOUT MY COUSIN RICH HE IS SO STRONG THAT WHEN HE TIGHTENS SOMETING I CAN'T move it , so im dsure the hold down bolt is tight., he dose auxo mechanics for the past 50 hrs a week for a living but he may had screwed up . i have no vaccunme canister it was removed before i go it . i has run 30k with out one so at cat be it,im useing 87 octane its only a 9-1 440
i rebuilt it to 71 specs with 90 cc heads . i was told that with the flat top pistons it would be 9+1i use to run 93 ethanol free gas but its tooo high for this poor guy to aford .
i would never use e85 gas in my motor the carb is a oem carter avs 750 carb , i was wandering f u ad ever seen a condensor go bad when the motor was cold? when the thermostat opens @150 it runs fine ! i thought the condensors wen bad when they r hot? i though maybe a ciol but they open up when they get ho? i have no idea how long the coil has been on it . the last owner put a pointless ignition system on it with a mopar performance "hot" higher voltage unit on i
my cousin things t may be a fuel starvation isse so he wants me to ga gas fitr (I dont think thas causes . but thank u for all te suggestions . i am a retired/disabled motor builder & shade tree mechanic . but im 70 y/o i a have forgotten somthing if the vaccine advance ibad the a1 Cardone thing is gong back ! i was Leary of it but it was the only choose we had for a point distributor we could ad gone ttoona mopar elctronic unit but i know ge issues ey have too i hsd point cars before bu its been yrs ago i hd a 73 polara & seveal 84-87 dodge trucks i allways carried a spair electronic control box wihb me & on more tan 1 time i had t change it on a parlking lot as it w=quitonnme . tisis strange . thanks again for all te subjections its not timing tht i know , its no a vacume issue caue it ony dode it cold . now unless its a shreaking base gaskert & as te motor warsm up it grows in size @ seals again
 
marty koirtyohann said:
ok the timing is right we checked it when we put the distributor in that was about 150 miles ago (last month ) new cap rotr points & condenser ( the cap ,rotor, points& condendaor was all in the ditributor when we goy it . new plugs &wires last week but te points&condensor was included inth assembly . i wande if they wasa cheap set .i have 10 nos mopars but my cousin didnt put them on/in. i can't help but thnk cardone cut corers with te oints&dcondensor. i wsas rtold by the managr of a loal parts store thir house brand ones rJUNK HE WOULD NEVER USE THEM . HE BUYS HIS FROM A COMPETOR (NAPA) THATS NT SAUYING MUCH FOR OREILLY'S HOUSE BRAND. U WILL HAVE TO KNOW ONE TING ABOUT MY COUSIN RICH HE IS SO STRONG THAT WHEN HE TIGHTENS SOMETING I CAN'T move it , so im dsure the hold down bolt is tight., he dose auxo mechanics for the past 50 hrs a week for a living but he may had screwed up . i have no vaccunme canister it was removed before i go it . i has run 30k with out one so at cat be it,im useing 87 octane its only a 9-1 440
i rebuilt it to 71 specs with 90 cc heads . i was told that with the flat top pistons it would be 9+1i use to run 93 ethanol free gas but its tooo high for this poor guy to aford .
i would never use e85 gas in my motor the carb is a oem carter avs 750 carb , i was wandering f u ad ever seen a condensor go bad when the motor was cold? when the thermostat opens @150 it runs fine ! i thought the condensors wen bad when they r hot? i though maybe a ciol but they open up when they get ho? i have no idea how long the coil has been on it . the last owner put a pointless ignition system on it with a mopar performance "hot" higher voltage unit on i
my cousin things t may be a fuel starvation isse so he wants me to ga gas fitr (I dont think thas causes . but thank u for all te suggestions . i am a retired/disabled motor builder & shade tree mechanic . but im 70 y/o i a have forgotten somthing if the vaccine advance ibad the a1 Cardone thing is gong back ! i was Leary of it but it was the only choose we had for a point distributor we could ad gone ttoona mopar elctronic unit but i know ge issues ey have too i hsd point cars before bu its been yrs ago i hd a 73 polara & seveal 84-87 dodge trucks i allways carried a spair electronic control box wihb me & on more tan 1 time i had t change it on a parlking lot as it w=quitonnme . tisis strange . thanks again for all te subjections its not timing tht i know , its no a vacume issue caue it ony dode it cold . now unless its a shreaking base gaskert & as te motor warsm up it grows in size @ seals again
Click to expand...
the timing is set pr the specs i have never heard of Joe White or Halifaxhops. now u r talign lots of$ witch i don't have . it ran great for 4 weeks
 
@halifaxhops is a vendor here specialised in ignition systems, he might be able to offer some help.

When you say that it runs fine when it warms up makes me wonder if it's a carb issue and not an ignition issue, just like your cousin. Maybe the choke isn't working properly?
 
I hear what sounds like an exhaust leak on the video. Manifold gasket?
A severe lean condition will cause one to pop through the carb so I’d check that as well. Double check for vacuum leaks.
Don’t shoot down every piece of advice these guys put out. It doesn’t cost anything to check the stuff they are telling you to check.
Starting from the basics work your way through the problem. Check compression, timing, ignition and fuel.
Take all the plugs out and do a compression check, this will tell you if you have a bent pushrod, wiped cam head gasket leak, or something of that nature. Inspect the plugs while you’re at it. Re-check the points gap or put another set in it, that’s cheap enough. Double check the timing,,, all of that stuff checks out and you’re still having problems??Move on to the carb. Remove it and rebuild it. There’s really nothing else to it. Good luck!
 
Triple Pickle said:
I hear what sounds like an exhaust leak on the video. Manifold gasket?
A severe lean condition will cause one to pop through the carb so I’d check that as well. Double check for vacuum leaks.
Don’t shoot down every piece of advice these guys put out. It doesn’t cost anything to check the stuff they are telling you to check.
Starting from the basics work your way through the problem. Check compression, timing, ignition and fuel.
Take all the plugs out and do a compression check, this will tell you if you have a bent pushrod, wiped cam head gasket leak, or something of that nature. Inspect the plugs while you’re at it. Re-check the points gap or put another set in it, that’s cheap enough. Double check the timing,,, all of that stuff checks out and you’re still having problems??Move on to the carb. Remove it and rebuild it. There’s really nothing else to it. Good luck!
Click to expand...
YES IT DOSE I HAVE TO WAIT TOILL I CAN GETVINTO A BUDDY'S GARGUE TO TRY TO FIX IT . I WAS GOING TO PUT PERFERMANCT MANAFORDS ONIYT BUT TE HEAT SHEALD ON THE STEERING SHAFE WOULD NO PERMI ME TO USE TEM BUT I USED THE FACTIRY HIOLLOW NUTS ONTHE LOG MANAFOLDS UT I DIDNT PUT ANTI SEAZE ON THE STUDS NOWCAFTER7 YRS THE NUTS R RUSTED TIGHT . ITS A PROFEC FOR ANOYH TIME
 
marty koirtyohann said:
YES IT DOSE I HAVE TO WAIT TOILL I CAN GETVINTO A BUDDY'S GARGUE TO TRY TO FIX IT . I WAS GOING TO PUT PERFERMANCT MANAFORDS ONIYT BUT TE HEAT SHEALD ON THE STEERING SHAFE WOULD NO PERMI ME TO USE TEM BUT I USED THE FACTIRY HIOLLOW NUTS ONTHE LOG MANAFOLDS UT I DIDNT PUT ANTI SEAZE ON THE STUDS NOWCAFTER7 YRS THE NUTS R RUSTED TIGHT . ITS A PROFEC FOR ANOYH TIME
Click to expand...
After trying to read this, my head hurts. Wish I could help you.
 
marty koirtyohann said:
ok the timing is right we checked it when we put the distributor in that was about 150 miles ago (last month ) new cap rotr points & condenser ( the cap ,rotor, points& condendaor was all in the ditributor when we goy it . new plugs &wires last week but te points&condensor was included inth assembly . i wande if they wasa cheap set .i have 10 nos mopars but my cousin didnt put them on/in. i can't help but thnk cardone cut corers with te oints&dcondensor. i wsas rtold by the managr of a loal parts store thir house brand ones rJUNK HE WOULD NEVER USE THEM . HE BUYS HIS FROM A COMPETOR (NAPA) THATS NT SAUYING MUCH FOR OREILLY'S HOUSE BRAND. U WILL HAVE TO KNOW ONE TING ABOUT MY COUSIN RICH HE IS SO STRONG THAT WHEN HE TIGHTENS SOMETING I CAN'T move it , so im dsure the hold down bolt is tight., he dose auxo mechanics for the past 50 hrs a week for a living but he may had screwed up . i have no vaccunme canister it was removed before i go it . i has run 30k with out one so at cat be it,im useing 87 octane its only a 9-1 440
i rebuilt it to 71 specs with 90 cc heads . i was told that with the flat top pistons it would be 9+1i use to run 93 ethanol free gas but its tooo high for this poor guy to aford .
i would never use e85 gas in my motor the carb is a oem carter avs 750 carb , i was wandering f u ad ever seen a condensor go bad when the motor was cold? when the thermostat opens @150 it runs fine ! i thought the condensors wen bad when they r hot? i though maybe a ciol but they open up when they get ho? i have no idea how long the coil has been on it . the last owner put a pointless ignition system on it with a mopar performance "hot" higher voltage unit on i
my cousin things t may be a fuel starvation isse so he wants me to ga gas fitr (I dont think thas causes . but thank u for all te suggestions . i am a retired/disabled motor builder & shade tree mechanic . but im 70 y/o i a have forgotten somthing if the vaccine advance ibad the a1 Cardone thing is gong back ! i was Leary of it but it was the only choose we had for a point distributor we could ad gone ttoona mopar elctronic unit but i know ge issues ey have too i hsd point cars before bu its been yrs ago i hd a 73 polara & seveal 84-87 dodge trucks i allways carried a spair electronic control box wihb me & on more tan 1 time i had t change it on a parlking lot as it w=quitonnme . tisis strange . thanks again for all te subjections its not timing tht i know , its no a vacume issue caue it ony dode it cold . now unless its a shreaking base gaskert & as te motor warsm up it grows in size @ seals again
Click to expand...
It doesn’t matter if a part was made 50 years ago or 50 days ago you should always double check. Parts can be junk. It sounds like the old distributor was fine except for the bearing and that’s where the issue started.

Always recheck timing after changing anything on a carbureted engine. It doesn’t matter where you set it at before, things change and timing moves. If you are saying the distributor does not have a vacuum advance canister that is a huge issue for a street car.

I never said anything about E85 fuel, E85 is the low power 440, E86 is the hi power 440. If you run 87 in an engine that needs 93 then that also causes issues. It doesn’t matter if you can’t afford 93 - the engine doesn’t know and doesn’t care. It is built to run on a certain octane fuel, you an engine builder, as you claim should know that.

It doesn’t sound like everything is straight forward. It sound like a bag of plucked berries that you like put together as an engine. The stock carburetor on a 72 is not a Carter AVS, it is a Holley 4160.

You should check manifold vacuum and ported vacuum to see how much the engine makes cold and hot and to check strength of the vacuum signal that should be going to the distributor.
 
thethee said:
@halifaxhops is a vendor here specialised in ignition systems, he might be able to offer some help.

When you say that it runs fine when it warms up makes me wonder if it's a carb issue and not an ignition issue, just like your cousin. Maybe the choke isn't working properly?
Click to expand...
nope the chock is not on its the fist thing he checked . u c i have to rely on him i have a non operatable bad back condition if i bend over fender for 15 mins in in agany soo bad i hav to lay on a heating pad for a hr . it took me 4 months to rebuilt the 440 versis the 1 month it took me to build a rac400b motor in 1978
 
Many people changed out the "troublesome" Holley 4160s for Carter AVS, back then. Troublesome? The quality of the bowl gaskets and such were poor for Holleys of that vintage, so the AVS was the preferred "go to" replacement. Put them on, adjust them, and they would "run forever", whereas the Holleys needed a rebuild every year. Newer Holleys I've had did not have those issues. BTAIM

Additionally, "back-fires" and "spit-backs" through the carburetor have been know to ruin a Holley power valve, which will put the carb "on the power mixture" at all times. Another known issue with Holley 4bbls.

The Cardone brand has its quality control issues, by observati0on and the experiences of others in here. @halifaxhops is a member in here and specializes in distributors, their maintenance and rebuilds. IF I read things correctly, you replaced an electronic unit with a points unit? If so, then the next issue would be if the rubbing block on the points was lubricated when they were installed? As it used to run well, the unlubricated rubbing block (or a so-so brand of points), would cause the rubbing block to wear quickly and change the point adjustment, after several months of use. Which will THEN also change the base ignition timing, without moving the distributor body.

As to setting the timing, DO unplug and plug the vac advance line to the distributor to set the base timing. THEN rev the motor to see if the mechanical advance is working. Taking it to 4000rpm will be high enough to check for the max advance of the distributor + base timing. No need to adjust anything for that, for your purposes. IF you check the 4000rpm total advance with the vac advance hooked up and working, the total advance can be over 50 degrees BTDC, which is normal, but if you adjust it back to 38 degrees BTDC at that speed, then the base timing will be too low. So use only the base + mechanical (vac advance unplugged and plugged) to look at the total timing for the distributor you have. THEN recheck the base initial timing when done, THEN unplugging the vac advance line and reconnecting it back onto the distributor.

The problem with rebuilt distributors is that they are "will work" for the engine they are installed into. The factory specs go out the window, by observation. You get a more generic advance set-up than the OEM-model-specific set-up the factory distributor came with. The Mopar Perf electronic ignition distributors have a quicker advance curve, all in by 2000rpm, to help with drag racing performance, which is fine for the street use.

Hope y'all get things figured out,
CBODY67
 
CBODY67 said:
Many people changed out the "troublesome" Holley 4160s for Carter AVS, back then. Troublesome? The quality of the bowl gaskets and such were poor for Holleys of that vintage, so the AVS was the preferred "go to" replacement. Put them on, adjust them, and they would "run forever", whereas the Holleys needed a rebuild every year. Newer Holleys I've had did not have those issues. BTAIM

Additionally, "back-fires" and "spit-backs" through the carburetor have been know to ruin a Holley power valve, which will put the carb "on the power mixture" at all times. Another known issue with Holley 4bbls.

The Cardone brand has its quality control issues, by observati0on and the experiences of others in here. @halifaxhops is a member in here and specializes in distributors, their maintenance and rebuilds. IF I read things correctly, you replaced an electronic unit with a points unit? If so, then the next issue would be if the rubbing block on the points was lubricated when they were installed? As it used to run well, the unlubricated rubbing block (or a so-so brand of points), would cause the rubbing block to wear quickly and change the point adjustment, after several months of use. Which will THEN also change the base ignition timing, without moving the distributor body.

As to setting the timing, DO unplug and plug the vac advance line to the distributor to set the base timing. THEN rev the motor to see if the mechanical advance is working. Taking it to 4000rpm will be high enough to check for the max advance of the distributor + base timing. No need to adjust anything for that, for your purposes. IF you check the 4000rpm total advance with the vac advance hooked up and working, the total advance can be over 50 degrees BTDC, which is normal, but if you adjust it back to 38 degrees BTDC at that speed, then the base timing will be too low. So use only the base + mechanical (vac advance unplugged and plugged) to look at the total timing for the distributor you have. THEN recheck the base initial timing when done, THEN unplugging the vac advance line and reconnecting it back onto the distributor.

The problem with rebuilt distributors is that they are "will work" for the engine they are installed into. The factory specs go out the window, by observation. You get a more generic advance set-up than the OEM-model-specific set-up the factory distributor came with. The Mopar Perf electronic ignition distributors have a quicker advance curve, all in by 2000rpm, to help with drag racing performance, which is fine for the street use.

Hope y'all get things figured out,veryone gose tote local parts store & buys a reman)
CBODY67
Click to expand...
well my 4160 holey was junl i leaked everyplace it was cheaper to replace it with the avs (I go te avs free from a freind tha rauns a mopar resteration yard / & yes i know cardone isnt the bes bi=ut we was told the select line was dion @ a differnt place than the rest r done .
 
marty koirtyohann said:
well my 4160 holey was junl i leaked everyplace it was cheaper to replace it with the avs (I go te avs free from a freind tha rauns a mopar resteration yard / & yes i know cardone isnt the bes bi=ut we was told the select line was dion @ a differnt place than the rest r done .
Click to expand...
u c with my stoch point distrebuor i had a bad bushing in it & no one out here can replace themor even get parts to thrm& muy buddies yard is out of them i guess i will hav to break the bank & put a new ghrysler electronic one in if the cardione bushung is bad again they wuill not stanf behond it . cardunk is the only plce i can find one @ a reasonable price , bing on ssi disibility pennys r ight . i pmed te guy lested here & asked him what he would charg to re plce the bushng in mine then i will be surised if its und 100 bucks
 
Those Cardone distributors are OK, once you replace the CRAP condenser and points that come in them. I have one which I installed and ran for a year or so in 2018-19. The condenser totally failed 10 days after installation. I ran it a month recently, and the bushings seem more worn than I like, though maybe that's just me after getting one of Halifaxhop's reman Mopar jobs. I now have about half a dozen of the same model # and rebuilt two so far, and ran them. They run nicely too, with old NOS Mopar parts in them!

I probably will rebuild the Cardone one when bored some time...... with better parts.
 
Cardone is a decent rebuild but they set the curve to WORK in a spread of motors usually around ten years so can be great in one motor and a dog in another. I just strip them for parts since there is no number on them.
 
rags said:
absolute junk.
Click to expand...

Yes, but NEW junk.

Once one removes the cheap points and condenser, the cast case can serve well enough. I like little details like them making a couple flat surfaces to abet gripping the casting in a vice, an extra groove for an O ring to better seal it into the engine block too. They supply a cheap vacuum advance which gives a little modest advance when cruising, and a pretty standard and close to OEM mech advance, which worked nicely on a VatoZone Special rebuilt unit I got for $34.99 when I saw how the venerable unit that came with old Mathilda visibly wobbled as I spun the motor for a compression check.

I since learned to rebuild old distributors meant for mid 1960s B/RB engines, so will never need to rely on Cardone products again, but for a new owner, not familiar with tool or shop procedures, these sino-sloppo units can enable an engine to run decently until one can do better. The summer of 2018, I had a crew of 4-5 fellow agitators/canvassers who I ran out of Mathilda around town with a Car-DON'T mal-distributor. The condenser failed 10 days after installing the thing, but after that it saw us through to the November elections....
 
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