oliver
Senior Member
Farts?
How do you guys feel about Paris Banning Old Cars
- Thread starter TheFearlessFury
- Start date
Farts?
live4theking
Old Man with a Hat
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Liquid Propane
TheFearlessFury
Active Member
I'm pretty sure it's a type of propane, Don't let Hank hill hear you calling it fart gas.
So are the Europeans moving away from diesels then?
Carmine
Old Man with a Hat
LP gas is popular because it's an easy conversion from gasoline. Also cleaner and I assume cheaper.
The VW diesel scandal has done a lot to harm the rep of "clean" diesels worldwide. I hear electric is gaining in Europe now.
fc7_plumcrazy
Old Man with a Hat
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Hi Bob,
no, not really.
It is sometimes country specific.
In the Netherlands and Belgium LPG is pretty popular on classics, too due to high gasoline prices.
But if you are in Scandinavia you hardly find LPG at all.
In Germany, France, switzerland or England some modern cars are driving on LPG but nearly zero classics.
If so they were often bought in Netherlands or Belgium
Carsten
commando1
Old Man with a Hat
Seeing more and more fleets pounding the road with natural gas now.
Government LP vehicles are being brought in to the fleet. We even have an LP gas station to fill the tank.
commando1
Old Man with a Hat
What would be worse. Getting hit in an armored personnel carrier with diesel tanks or LP tanks...
I doubt that older cars will ever be restricted here in the U.S. for smog related pollution reasons. There will very likely be a phasedown of gasoline powered light duty vehicles as hybrids and then pure electrics and maybe a small but significant portion of fuel cell vehicles gradually increases in response to the 2025 fuel economy standards and even more tightening rules that will take place beyond that date in response to global warming concerns by the government (unless the Donald gets elected maybe). But lets face it, the internal combustion engine is old technology and there are better forms of motive power coming in the future that are more efficient and affect the world we live in less. And I won't mind if all the wars and conflicts in the middle east died down some as their oil is less important to more developed nations and I won't have to go to gas stations routinely with some of the options likely to come in the future.
Todays new vehicles are 98% cleaner in terms of smog pollution than 30 years ago. In fact, after about the first 20 seconds of warm up after a cold start, the emissions from the tail pipe are as clean as the background air, even here in Los Angeles. This dramatic reduction in smog pollution emissions has made it relatively useless to ban older cars in the U.S. in urban areas such as Los Angeles since the relatively few old cars that do pollute quite a bit, don't really dent the pretty clean air now. Manufacturing operations are the biggest culprit anymore, and that is where a lot of the focus is plus emissions from big rigs (but even new pollution control systems on those now are pretty effective).
And the Specialty Equipment Market Association (SEMA) is a big enough and powerful enough lobby that effectively curtails dumb moves like restricting the operation of old cars. The emission inventory improvements due to such a move would be miniscule anyway, so this kind of move is very unlikely IMO. Even the California Air Resources Board looked at this option more than a decade ago and rejected it because the emission benefits would be pretty useless. In Europe where diesels are common and tail pipe emission standards are sometimes 10 times what they are in the U.S., then maybe getting older cars off the road might help a bit, but still hardly worth doing. Europe would be much better off just adopting the U.S. tail pipe standards and really clean up the air. Focusing on old cars is just stupid by comparison.
Todays new vehicles are 98% cleaner in terms of smog pollution than 30 years ago. In fact, after about the first 20 seconds of warm up after a cold start, the emissions from the tail pipe are as clean as the background air, even here in Los Angeles. This dramatic reduction in smog pollution emissions has made it relatively useless to ban older cars in the U.S. in urban areas such as Los Angeles since the relatively few old cars that do pollute quite a bit, don't really dent the pretty clean air now. Manufacturing operations are the biggest culprit anymore, and that is where a lot of the focus is plus emissions from big rigs (but even new pollution control systems on those now are pretty effective).
And the Specialty Equipment Market Association (SEMA) is a big enough and powerful enough lobby that effectively curtails dumb moves like restricting the operation of old cars. The emission inventory improvements due to such a move would be miniscule anyway, so this kind of move is very unlikely IMO. Even the California Air Resources Board looked at this option more than a decade ago and rejected it because the emission benefits would be pretty useless. In Europe where diesels are common and tail pipe emission standards are sometimes 10 times what they are in the U.S., then maybe getting older cars off the road might help a bit, but still hardly worth doing. Europe would be much better off just adopting the U.S. tail pipe standards and really clean up the air. Focusing on old cars is just stupid by comparison.
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Wildaugust
Senior Member
I have an old issue of PHR from '73. It has two separate lists of the California emissions standards for both North American and foreign cars. The strangest thing is that they held the North American cars to a higher, tougher standard for the tailpipe test. That didn't seem very fair, but apparently that's how they did it back then. Vancouver, BC just ended their emissions testing program a little over a year ago. They said it had accomplished it's goal and was no longer needed. Ontario is another story though. If anything scary happens in Canada, it will probably start in that province.
I don't know how many pre-'97 cars there are in Paris, but it seems very silly to ban them, especially since several of them probably leave the road permanently every day anyway, due to engine and transmission failures, accidents, etc. I mean, probably more often than not, when a DD of that age needs a new engine or tranny, the owner just junks it and looks for another car to replace it. The replacement usually ends up being a bit newer.
I don't know how many pre-'97 cars there are in Paris, but it seems very silly to ban them, especially since several of them probably leave the road permanently every day anyway, due to engine and transmission failures, accidents, etc. I mean, probably more often than not, when a DD of that age needs a new engine or tranny, the owner just junks it and looks for another car to replace it. The replacement usually ends up being a bit newer.
70bigblockdodge
Old Man with a Hat
That would be the only way I would buy a newer truck, by the time they get the diesel emissions sorted I will be dead or retired.Seeing more and more fleets pounding the road with natural gas now.
Cash for clunkers is killing me in shopping for used cars, still a shortage of cars ( that I would consider) forcing the price too high. Guess I'm keeping my 189,000 mi trailblazer and 215,000 mi 300m at least till Tesla's cheaper car hits the streets.
commando1
Old Man with a Hat
You mean the Tucker?....
70bigblockdodge
Old Man with a Hat
I can't afford a Tucker.
commando1
Old Man with a Hat
The cheap Tesla IS the new Tucker.
Deposits taken on a car that the design is still in development and will cost more to operate than IC cars cuz they won't be allowed to use the free charging stations.
Fools. 350,000 fools. Drink the electric koolade.
70bigblockdodge
Old Man with a Hat
Charge it at night, rates are cheaper, no stopping at the super gas/convenience store waiting for a pump while everyone orders their lunch. No emission checks, and repairs by monkeys throwing parts at it, no cooling system to leak, no exhaust system with rusty studs that snap off in the exhaust manifold which it does not have, brakes last longer due to regenerative braking(charges as you stop), no fuel system to leak, pump fail, filter clog, no transmission with 950 speeds that cost $19,000 to repair. Basically everything we talk about on here will not be on those cars, so I guess the forum will be boring, more time for talking about BOOBIES though.
Sorry to say but cars that are being produced today are going the way of steam locomotives in the 40-50s too many parts and too much maintenance cost, Manny, Moe, and Jack charging $120/hr to change a alternator or a muffler(neither of which the Tesla even has). I love steam locomotives and I love Big Block cars also but as time marches on their practicality is less and less.
It will not happen overnight but it will happen. BTW this does not include Hybrids they are infinatly more complicated for very little return and a major problem to salvage when a diesel gets same mileage and is more enviromentally friendly at scrap time. Hybrids are a marketing exercise gone wrong, short sighted fix by mostly asian car companies that already have a lot of diesel experience everywhere around the world except for the stubborn North American market that is so fixated on a crappy fuel. Okay rant over
Sorry to say but cars that are being produced today are going the way of steam locomotives in the 40-50s too many parts and too much maintenance cost, Manny, Moe, and Jack charging $120/hr to change a alternator or a muffler(neither of which the Tesla even has). I love steam locomotives and I love Big Block cars also but as time marches on their practicality is less and less.
It will not happen overnight but it will happen. BTW this does not include Hybrids they are infinatly more complicated for very little return and a major problem to salvage when a diesel gets same mileage and is more enviromentally friendly at scrap time. Hybrids are a marketing exercise gone wrong, short sighted fix by mostly asian car companies that already have a lot of diesel experience everywhere around the world except for the stubborn North American market that is so fixated on a crappy fuel. Okay rant over
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commando1
Old Man with a Hat
Here. Let's cover all our bases...
70bigblockdodge
Old Man with a Hat
I love this place!Here. Let's cover all our bases...
there was a great debate here.
in fact there is two option for classic cars here :
a classic car is a car older than 30 years.
1) you had it for a while or this is a french or european car, and the title ( carte grise ) is a " common title ". common title is for new cars with general rules ( technical vist every 2 years mainly ).
2) for the imports ( or on demand for other cars), you have no choices than the " classic car title " than french people always saw in a bad way. ( typical french way of thinking ). Now the only diffrence between the two titles is that the classic one gives a technical visit every 5 years for classic cars ( because they are less driven). But if you choose the classic title you can't get back to the normal title.
The classic title have a very large avantage for imports : you do not have to pass technical inspection on arrival, no conformity or else just the technical visit. Otherwise, having a title for imports would be either very very expensive, either impossible.
A lot of owners with nomal title thinks that one day, the governement will forbid to every classic title to run that is why they do not want this title. but since I remenber, that is the opposite that happened : no more restrictions to run, technical visit every 5 years ( ther was no technical inspection at all for classic before that was crasy ! ), you can keep the original plates format and colors.. and many more.
So in Paris and other big cities, classic titles won't be impacted by that, just old car with normal titles. the goal is to take away from the streets rollin coffins but this law does not aim classic car, but normal old cars that are not maintain. Classic cars are a collateral damage.
in fact there is two option for classic cars here :
a classic car is a car older than 30 years.
1) you had it for a while or this is a french or european car, and the title ( carte grise ) is a " common title ". common title is for new cars with general rules ( technical vist every 2 years mainly ).
2) for the imports ( or on demand for other cars), you have no choices than the " classic car title " than french people always saw in a bad way. ( typical french way of thinking ). Now the only diffrence between the two titles is that the classic one gives a technical visit every 5 years for classic cars ( because they are less driven). But if you choose the classic title you can't get back to the normal title.
The classic title have a very large avantage for imports : you do not have to pass technical inspection on arrival, no conformity or else just the technical visit. Otherwise, having a title for imports would be either very very expensive, either impossible.
A lot of owners with nomal title thinks that one day, the governement will forbid to every classic title to run that is why they do not want this title. but since I remenber, that is the opposite that happened : no more restrictions to run, technical visit every 5 years ( ther was no technical inspection at all for classic before that was crasy ! ), you can keep the original plates format and colors.. and many more.
So in Paris and other big cities, classic titles won't be impacted by that, just old car with normal titles. the goal is to take away from the streets rollin coffins but this law does not aim classic car, but normal old cars that are not maintain. Classic cars are a collateral damage.
Yes you have the same in germany the " umweltplakete " if i say it correctly.
In France every car must have a title ( carte grise ). this is a obligation. Only stolen car do not have one and if you do not have one the car is completely useless, you can't do anything with it. You can't put it to the garbage too ! the only solution if to cut it in tiny pieces and bring it to a metal recycling facility but otherwise you will need a title.
there may be athe case of very old ones ( ancêtres ) but you can have a titel with the FFVE the organism that take care of classic cars in france and delivers an attestation to have a title.
Paris is burning topic is locked... another attack today, 84 died by now...
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