Number matching / date correct.. Please help me understand

Let's not continue to bastardize the term 'numbers matching'. It's not possible for pre 68 to be numbers matching as there are no numbers to match.

I wholeheartedly disagree. First off, the date codes for accessories and bolt-ons like carbs, water pumps, alternators, and more are critical to the "numbers-matching" game on pre-1968 Mopars. As well as the intake and exhaust manifolds and other parts. Having a manufacture date and part number before the SPD is usually good to meet "numbers-matching" criteria. The same thing exists for 1968-newer cars, too. The ONLY thing you have that is absolutely certain on the newer cars is the partial VIN on the pan rail and on the trans pad. BUT, just because those two may match, does not necessarily mean it's a "number's matching" car. Accessories matter, if you're shooting for a true N-M car.

I know for a fact that the engine and transmission in my '66 Coronet 500 are the original items off the assembly line with the car; as I bought the car from the original owner 42 years ago, and neither had ever been swapped out. The cast dates for both are three weeks prior to the SPD. Therefore, "numbers-matching". Just because you are looking at pre-1968 cars, doesn't mean "numbers-matching" doesn't exist. It most certainly does. See Post #18.
 
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I wholeheartedly disagree. First off, the date codes for accessories and bolt-ons like carbs, water pumps, alternators, and more are critical to the "numbers-matching" game on pre-1968 Mopars. As well as the intake and exhaust manifolds and other parts. Having a manufacture date and part number before the SPD is usually good to meet "numbers-matching" criteria. The same thing exists for 1968-newer cars, too. The ONLY thing you have that is absolutely certain on the newer cars is the partial VIN on the pan rail and on the trans pad. BUT, just because those two may match, does not necessarily mean it's a "number's matching" car. Accessories matter, if you're shooting for a true N-M car.

I know for a fact that the engine and transmission in my '66 Coronet 500 are the original items off the assembly line with the car; as I bought the car from the original owner 42 years ago, and neither had ever been swapped out. The cast dates for both are three weeks prior to the SPD. Therefore, "numbers-matching". Just because you are looking at pre-1968 cars, doesn't mean "numbers-matching" doesn't exist. It most certainly does. See Post #18.


No one is arguing against using date coded items for pre 68.

The term 'numbers matching' refers to engine and transmissions having stampings that match the VIN tag and, post '68, fender tags.

Your argument reinforces my point that people bastardize the term 'numbers matching'. They are two separate and unrelated concepts. Date coding is not numbers matching. One can have wrong date codes on numbers matching. One can have correct dates codes and not be numbers matching.

Numbers matching does not exist for pre 68 cars and that's OK.

There's no need to argue, rationalize or justify that concept.

There's no 'agree' or 'disagree' with me as it's not my definition.

The term numbers matching simply does not apply as it wasn't in existence at that time. That's allright.
 
"Numbers matching", yes it is overused and misused. It's like "Frame off restoration". I just laugh when I see that mentioned to a Mopar. (that is unibody) Often those monikers are used by people that don't have a clue. I also laugh at "restored" with a long list of modifications.
 
Some people are more obsessive than others, I'm one of them.

Very obsessive when it comes to vintage Mopars.

It's possible that some people have obsession envy, I personally see it all the time.

An ex long ago used to say "you love that car more than me", etc, etc... YMMV
 
this is where I get off the bus. :) good discussion..

my personal goal is "authenticity/originality", as bult vs. how I see it today, of the vehicle.

I use "numbers and letters" to help me determine the degree of authentticy and potential "rarity" I am seeking. those numbers I like to use include VIN's, dates, serial numbers, fender tags, broadcasts, production numbers, etc. to help me do that.

if all those numbers, and condition of the vehicle of course, make sense in relation to a PRICE, my goal of "authenticity/originality" verification is satisfied and my willingness to pay, or ask for, a premium is bolstered.

Deal still may not get done, but I still look for the "numbers logic" for a given car among other things.

I like to try to verify IF the parts on the car represent what was used when the car was built. If for example, the car that is otherwise running fine has a carburetor from another year OUT OF a range I would expect, I may try to find a carb that was WITHIN/REASONABLY NEAR the expected range.

In contrast, if the perfectly fine tailight lens is from a year of TWO earlier/later than the build-date, because the OEM used that same light across a couple of years, i would NOT try to find another lens.

Sometimes I couldn't give two sh*ts about the "numbers". Its nice, I like it, it runs great, and some of its parts are NOT EXACTLY what it was born with when it popped off the assembly line .. so what, I'm still in.

Whether or NOT is the kind vehicle where I KNOW when the time comes to transact on THAT vehicle, there are buyers/sellers that care about that stuff and knowing the "numbers" -- whatever they are -- is important in whatever their decision process is.

What the definitions actually mean? Dunno, don't care that much most of the time. I know some people do care and are very good at it - I even envy some of them and learn a lot too sometimes.

Only thing I care about is knowing what I like (can afford to buy, what I want for a vehicle, time/investment to put it together, etc.) :)

Adieu. good perspectives by all.
 
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Let's not continue to bastardize the term 'numbers matching'. It's not possible for pre 68 to be numbers matching as there are no numbers to match.

No one is arguing against using date coded items for pre 68.

The term 'numbers matching' refers to engine and transmissions having stampings that match the VIN tag and, post '68, fender tags.

Your argument reinforces my point that people bastardize the term 'numbers matching'. They are two separate and unrelated concepts. Date coding is not numbers matching. One can have wrong date codes on numbers matching. One can have correct dates codes and not be numbers matching.

Numbers matching does not exist for pre 68 cars and that's OK.

There's no need to argue, rationalize or justify that concept.

There's no 'agree' or 'disagree' with me as it's not my definition.

The term numbers matching simply does not apply as it wasn't in existence at that time. That's allright.
You are correct sir. Technically there are no VIN numbers to match. In that particular way, yes the term has been bastardized.
However, if one of the 99.99 percenters of the world asked if your original engined 67 GTX was #s matching ,, it would be far easier saying yes, as compared to saying your car is "date coded" conjuring up visions of finding a derelict scrap heap and spending years trying to find parts that falsely imply that the car is as the factory assembled it.

I guess I'm saying the term date coded, does not reflect the true originality of the car.

Not an argument, just discussion. I appreciate your knowledge and expertise!
 
No one is arguing against using date coded items for pre 68.

The term 'numbers matching' refers to engine and transmissions having stampings that match the VIN tag and, post '68, fender tags.

Your argument reinforces my point that people bastardize the term 'numbers matching'. They are two separate and unrelated concepts. Date coding is not numbers matching. One can have wrong date codes on numbers matching. One can have correct dates codes and not be numbers matching.

Numbers matching does not exist for pre 68 cars and that's OK.

There's no need to argue, rationalize or justify that concept.

There's no 'agree' or 'disagree' with me as it's not my definition.

The term numbers matching simply does not apply as it wasn't in existence at that time. That's allright.

Having proper part numbers that are date-coded to the SPD of the car is the very defiinition on "numbers-matching". Again, on 1968-later cars, the VIN is just that much more info to utilize. I guarantee that a guy the owns a "numbers-matching" 1970 GTX, for example, is going to have the correct date-matched carbs, manifolds, water pump, etc; to be a real, actual "numbers-matching" car. The engine and transmission alone DO NOT make for a "numbers-matching car, no matter how much you or anyone else says to the contrary. The carbs are stamped with a date two months after the build - the car is NOT N-M.
 
First off this thread is honestly meant to help me understand and not to offend / piss somebody off. That´s important to me since it´s not that hard to connect the dots to a fellow member who just found a date correct engine for his restoration project.

But I have been asking myself for a long time now, what´s the upside of having a date correct engine for a car if it´s not the one it left the factory with?
Does it increase the value? And if so, why?
To my understanding the most valuable form of a collector car is a survivor, that still sports it´s first paint job, interior and the numbers matching drive train.
And it´s either yes or no -> either numbers matching or not. If not, what does it help to have a date code correct block?


Yes. Far easier.

Easy is easy. Accuracy takes work.
And yes, to have an accurate and correct restoration, major and many minor components need to be the correct part and correctly date coded.

In fact, a majority of all the parts on your MoPar are dated. One can extrapolate therefore why date coded correct parts are important.

There really isn’t any room for argument here. Date code correct parts are correct for the car, anything else, simply isn’t.

That does not mean that you or anybody else needs to care about “numbers” or “date coded” parts, but the hobby has well established that both aspects are important to the hobby and to the correctness and therefore the value and originality of the vehicle, regardless if it’s a Pontiac, Plymouth, or a Porsche, Maserati or a MoPar.

Best regards!
 
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And yes, to have an accurate and correct restoration, major and many minor components need to be the correct part and correctly date coded.

In fact, a majority of all the parts on your MoPar are dated. One can extrapolate therefore why date coded correct parts are important.

There really isn’t any room for argument here. Date code correct parts are correct for the car, anything else, simply isn’t.

That does not mean that you or anybody else needs to care about “numbers” or “date coded” parts, but the hobby has well established that both aspects are important to the hobby and to the correctness and therefore the value and originality of the vehicle, regardless if it’s a Pontiac, Plymouth, or a Porsche, Maserati or a MoPar.

Best regards!

Everyone agreed with that premise.
 
For 68 and later, it makes no sense to me to try and find a date correct block. Original is original. Not original is not original. Close is not original so who cares if the block is a month or three years off the SPD.

It seems to me like a majority of the collector car world disagrees with your position that date codes don’t matter, or “who cares” if dates don’t match up.

Casting dates, assembly dates, do matter even if the corresponding VIN on a replacement engine do not.
 
It seems to me like a majority of the collector car world disagrees with your position that date codes don’t matter, or “who cares” if dates don’t match up.

Casting dates, assembly dates, do matter even if the corresponding VIN on a replacement engine do not.

I, nor anyone for that matter, said anything that applies to your response in #29 or #31. Nothing was said about restoration components or anything similar. No one disagreed with #29 before or after #29.

I think if you will please reread post #1, the original question, and my following responses to that question, especially #22, you will better understand the topic at hand and what I've said.

If you need clarification on my position after that, please send me a PM.
 
Huh…okay…cool.

I’m pretty sure i don’t need any clarification, but thanks for the offer.

Best.
 
I've been in this hobby a long time, and things have changed as humans evolve, but in my mind a numbers matching car - when applicable - is block/trans casting match the VIN.

Production #'s of things like intake manifolds - maybe you have an Edelbrock Tarantula on that 440 instead of the silly pop and fart down the strip 6 Pack it came with, sorry folks, it's still a numbers matching car.

Edelbrock carb, race water pump housing, electric fuel pump, and racing tires and wheels, and it's still a numbers matching car if the block and trans are original to the car.

All those other numbers, water pump castings, brake master cylinder castings do not make a "numbers matching car" when applicable - and neither can they detract from a numbers matching car by their absence, beyond their actual value.

Post '68, if you had all of your ancillary bits correct for the year, carb #'s correct, distributor #'s correct, etc, etc, etc, and the block/trans don't match the VIN you have nothing "matching numbers" wise anyway.
 
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I've been in this hobby a long time, and things have changed as humans evolve, but in my mind a numbers matching car - when applicable - is block/trans casting match the VIN.

Production #'s of things like intake manifolds - maybe you have an Edelbrock Tarantula on that 440 instead of the silly pop and fart down the strip 6 Pack it came with, sorry folks, it's still a numbers matching car.

Edelbrock carb, race water pump housing, electric fuel pump, and racing tires and wheels, and it's still a numbers matching car if the block and trans are original to the car.

All those other numbers, water pump castings, brake master cylinder castings do not make a "numbers matching car" when applicable - and neither can they detract from a numbers matching car by their absence, beyond their actual value.

Post '68, if you had all of your ancillary bits correct for the year, carb #'s correct, distributor #'s correct, etc, etc, etc, and the block/trans don't match the VIN you have nothing "matching numbers" wise anyway.

Nope, I'll disagree with your assessment 100%, except the last statement. How about the rear axle? The date stampings on various interior pieces like the door cards, radio, and even the tag that shows when the upholstery was made? The heater unit in my '66 even has a date stenciled in it that is a week before the SPD. Having just the engine and trans match the VIN does not make for a NM car.
 
It may not be numbers matching, but it's as close as you're going to get.

Lots of Hemi cars had the Hemis robbed out of them.

When I went to my first big - Northwest Nationals - Mopar thingie, a very well known local collector buddy of mine had a '67 GTX - 1st year - Hemi 4sp car for sale - $1500 - turnkey car that he drove to the show, the car was straight as a pin, 4 speed, mint black interior, with 383 and 383/440 K member.

I love that body style and I've often regretted no buying that car - $1500 - was a lot of money then, and although you'd never find the numbers matching Hemi for it, unless you got real lucky, you could find one, and K member and put the car back to near original, and that's where block date codes come in.

The closer the better.

An interesting aside and I don't know if anyone knows the answer to this, but what if your engine blew up under warranty and Chrysler changed it out, would they stamp the VIN into the block like the original?
No. You would get a tag bolted to the engine stating it had been changed under warranty.
 
My buddy Ken H. is a local legend who bought his Metallic Green '69 Charger new, ordered will all the goodies sight unseen from Vietnam in '69.

He's not totally right but the car helped him through it, both dreaming about it while in the sh*t, and later as he's been single his whole life, the car is his first and only love, his whole house and garage devoted to the car, wild racing parts all over the house, living room, bedrooms, closets ;]

He'd never street driven it much, just mostly drag racing with some insanely impressive slip times, and a garage queen it's whole life, never driven to commute.

By the time I met him, the interior was out, it had a fuel cell, Holley 120 GPM pump, some monster carburetion and headers, Centerlines, a spool, fiberglass front end.

We were virtually neighbors and he helped me with my Roadrunner project with his knowledge and garage space, then we became friends and we started doing movie nights, a bromance.

We had a Mopar club here he was a highly respected member of, and for someone to have told him his car wasn't numbers matching because it was modified would have been a joke, because even highly modified it was still a numbers matching car with the original block and trans.

Most of the cars in the club had performance modifications, just about anything you can imagine, and I showed my car in the B body Modified class, 3 show trophies, last one in 1991, 1st place in it's class. *

The modified class doesn't give a crap whether your engine is original or not, and plenty of cars in those classes are numbers matching, it's just that the owner prefers his performance and more importantly cosmetic mods.

All those other parts can be replaced back to original again, should you care to, but numbers matching means something matching a VIN, when applicable, so we're talking block and trans casting here, nothing else.

Any axle housing, manifold, carburetor from a swap meet can be swapped back in to a car to make more "original", but the block and trans are the only two pieces that really matter.

Obviously with anything expensive - Rolex Subs, '59 Les Paul Flametops, 4sp Hemi Cuda Convertibles, you have to watch out for fraud, as there are ways to fraudulate such numbers. Fakes abound. There's more '59 flametops Les Paul floating around now than Gibson shipped, and if you can find their missing shipping ledger, they will pay $59,000 for it because of the dang counterfeiters still busy making more.

An X Ray would reveal if the area has been ground, welded, machined, and restamped like people did with the rare Singer Sewing Machine made WWII Colt 1911 sidearms, only 500 made. X Ray inspection to determine authenticity if provenance is unknown. At a certain price point it just becomes mandatory.


For the record, I'm not disagreeing with anyone here. This is been an open/closed subject for decades.


* The engine compartment got me the trophy, people barely looked at the body or interior, which was a little sad but probably good because I did the work myself with a backyard painter. ;]

Sent a bunch of stuff to the platers including fender bolts, pulleys, polished the radiator, it was stunning as well as balanced and blueprinted. Electric fans. Transgo Stage 3 on the street. Giant cam, Jan's 11.25:1 pistons, all used parts from local drag racers.

The .525/304 Isky bumpstick came out of local legend "Sugarbear" '69 Roadrunner race car turning impressive times with 300lb guy on board.

IMG_6895.JPG


People were begging me to take it to the strip, telling me "I needed to take it to the strip" and I refused, too pretty, a 383HP I spent two years building, no thanks.
 
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In 1988, I owned a truly spectacular, restored 1969 Dart GTS 440 car. One of 635 '69 M-code Darts built. It was on engine number FIVE (blew up two 440s and two 383s before the 440 in it was put in) over seven previous owners. Quite a run for a then-19-year-old A-body. It was hashed and thrashed before ending up with the guy who sold that car to me, who did an absolutely beautiful restoration. "Numbers-matching"? You tell me. The engine was a month before the SPD, and had its original automatic and 8-3/4" rear. The carb, alternator, water pump, exhaust manifolds, intake, and much, much more were all correctly dated to being molded by elves before the SPD of the 440 car.
 
In 1988, I owned a truly spectacular, restored 1969 Dart GTS 440 car. One of 635 '69 M-code Darts built. It was on engine number FIVE (blew up two 440s and two 383s before the 440 in it was put in) over seven previous owners. Quite a run for a then-19-year-old A-body. It was hashed and thrashed before ending up with the guy who sold that car to me, who did an absolutely beautiful restoration. "Numbers-matching"? You tell me. The engine was a month before the SPD, and had its original automatic and 8-3/4" rear. The carb, alternator, water pump, exhaust manifolds, intake, and much, much more were all correctly dated to being molded by elves before the SPD of the 440 car.

As '69 M Code Darts and Barracudas were package cars and built in batches, they did not follow normal SPD guidelines and had limited amount of fixed SPDs (4?) (think A12 cars, Superbirds and 70 Hursts). Meaning, that's probably not a good example to use as the SPD in and of itself doesn't track well with date coded parts as with cars whose SPDs change almost daily.

Patrick, no one has or is disputing the importance of date coded parts on cars and restoration. That's not what the thread was about.
 
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