Overbored 318 POLY engine trouble

mrb4511

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Hello to all:

Just wish I know more about the mechanics of the engine but here's a couple queitions to get me started. New rebuild of an ond 318.

Did a "break in" and after that it will start but won't run on it's own, pump gas pedal to keep running. (gas line shows gas pressure good). Engine acts like it just "runs outta gas", and if not pumped pedal it will not stay running.

Also, if gas pedal feathered, as RPM increases the engine will backfire, most times through carburetor.

Please help me figure this out. I need to know what to do, I think I can do it myself after that.
 
Check the firing order, and if that isn't found to be the problem, check the timing - make sure it's around 10* BTDC. If those both are fine, get a compression gage and take some cylinder pressure readings to verify it was put together properly.
 
idle mixture too lean. the backfire could be timing or also the accelerator pump too lean. What carb are you running?
 
If the engine runs and starts and has good fuel pressure, I think that as it will run when pumping the throttle that you have an overly lean carb due to a clogged carburetor jet or and idle circuit that is set much too lean. First locate the metering screws on the base of the carb and turn each of them out 1 turn. Will the car now idle? If it does, the idle circuit was your problem. If it still will not run, put the metering screws back where you found them.

On a 318 Poly engine you most likely have a Cater 2BBL carb (Might also be a Stromburg depending on the year). Disconnect the fuel line and remove the carb from the engine. Drain the fuel out and put the carb on a newspaper someplace where you have good lighting. Remove the top of the carb and check the float level, if that is ok, remove the float and shake it, if it has fuel inside, the float is bad and needs to be replaced. Next check the jets on the carb floor, a piece of debris may be clogging one or both of the jets. It is not uncommon to find a bunch of white or brown gunk on the floor of the carb due to degraded fuel. If there is a bunch of that stuff in there the carb should be cleaned and rebuilt.

Dave
 
If you got the engine installed and did the 30 minute cam break-in routine, that should mean that all is decently well with the "build" quality, I suspect.

IF when you let the rpm drop, THEN it wants to die, then that would indicate something's become awry in the carb's idle circuit, which richening the idle screw adjustment will not fix.

With the carb off the engine, when you're checking for the float issues mentioned, remove the venturis from the carb main body. When removed, the cluster should have some tubes hanging down from it, which sit in fuel from the float bowl (or a well connected to it). The small tubes are for the idle system, the larger ones with the holes in the side are for the main system. IF you did the 2000rpm break-in procedure, the main system is working.

For the smaller diameter tubes, there can be a drilled hole up inside that tube a little ways. That is termed the "low speed jet" in the carb section of the FSM. You might shoot some aerosol carb cleaner into it and liquid come out of the top of the cluster, but that doesn't mean it's totally open to specs! Take a bent-wire spark plug gap gauge and probe the tube, starting with the smallest wire and progress until resistance if felt with the larger wire gauge. Make sure the smaller wires "rattle around" in the rube. At some point, you might notice a little more resistance, which goes away with more pressure. Note that wire size. When you get to the wire that absolutely will not go, note that size too.

Then go to a hobby store and get a twist drill set. They usually have an assortment of sizes for the drills in the kit. Return to the carb's cluster and again probe the tube with the drill bits. When you get to the size that won't go, use the twist drill to enlarge the hole to that size, or the next largest size to "get brass". This will be the new size of the "low speed jet". Do each of the idle tubes. Spray cleaner through the holes for remove any brass from the "drilling" operations. Reinstall the cluster on the carb and the carb on the engine. The engine should idle reliably after that.

For more initial diagnostics, you can take some fine wire (like .010" diameter or so) and place a piece into the air bleeds on top of the cluster. These bleeds are an additional fuel curve calibration point. The smaller the hole/bleed, the richer the mixture will be, all other things being equal. Be sure to put a bend on the end of the wire not inserted into the bleed hole, to keep it from falling into the tube. You can start the engine and it will idle off of any residual carb cleaner in the idle tubes, but when that runs out, it'll die unless you raise the rpm enough to let the main system take over carb fuel metering. With that small wire in the idle bleed, fuel should drop into the air stream on that side of the cluster. Even with the restricted/clogged idle tube on the bottom of the cluster.

When I bought my '80 Newport 360 a good while back, we knew it would not idle once it came off the fast idle cam. As soon as it did, it died. Same if you backed out of the throttle running 60mph on the freeway and were slowing down for an off-ramp!

What I've described is how I finally got the engine to idle on its own. Both of the idle tubes had "accumulation" from fuel deposits in them. Enough so that idle fuel was compromised significantly. Idle mixture screw adjustments did nothing to help it, either. I looked in every Chrysler-related service manual I had, until I finally found an illustration of the idle/main tubes and where the "low speed jet" was indicated. Once I knew where to look, it helped greatly.

IF the timing chain was not installed exactly right, it could be "one tooth off". IF the engine runs better as you rotate the distributor to advance the timing by one wire's notch on the distributor cap, then it could be that the timing set is "one tooth off". KInd of a pain to deal with and fix. Ir aril won't run exactly right with the distributor turned, but it can indicate where the problem is, IF that's the issue.

I noticed you mentioned "overbore" in the subject line. A .030" overbore is pretty normal to get to fresh metal in the cylinder walls. It should have NO bearing on the issues you mentioned, by observation.

From my own experiences on my'80 Newport's BBD Carter 2bbl, you could well have something similar on your carb. Did this issue just start?

Keep us posted,
CBODY67
 
Changed carburetors tonight and now the car will run but still backfires. I think it may be "under carbureted". I'll tell you that this engine was over bored by .090 inch and has a 4" stroke Scat crank. I followed that with a pretty "thumpy" hydraulic cam and lifters.

That said, I am looking for between 350 HP and 400 HP from this engine. I think we may be onto something here. What makes me say that is so many times "lean" conditions mentioned in posts above. May be that I hadn't taken into consideration on this engine.

If I'm right, I think I need to put WAY larger jets into this carb or just get a new carburetor.
(I remember putting a small breather onto the old 2 barrel carb. it wouldn't run right at all 'til I put a larger diameter breather on it. Problem solved there. Seems it was choking out with the smaller diameter)

What do you folks think about that attack. Yes I could go inexpensive and rebuild this carburetor or 'do the right thing' and go with a new carb. with correct CFM for such an engine. How does someone find out the CFM of a carburetor, or determine just how many CFM are needed here? I'd sure like yur input.

Later mrb4511
 
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I can do that.
How 'bout I get one in the morning.
Gettin' kinda late here now.
Thanks for thinkin of that too.
 
maybe... initiate the backfire a couple of times, then pull a sparkplug and take a pic of it too. post that here.
 
Can't find any leaks, yet.
Carb is the one I pulled last night. 8007 then 1545 on front Horn. Plug is a Autolite R45S.
Carb Fire shows just that at last.
Exhaust_backfires in that mov. None from carb.
Forum said Mov files too big.
I'll try to PM you them.

First show Carb backfire at the last and Second you hear all backfires come from exhaust.

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Autolite R45S.JPG
 
i wonder if thats actually a backfire or a crazy misfire. Looks way rich. I think that your problem is carburetor adjustment, just from looking at the plug. The choke was off and the engine warm?
 
No YouTube account
Maybe it would go through email account but then you'd need to accept "attachment".
it might just be enough to say what is needed from the pictures of the plug. Plug shows rich.

But now I am really confused - Lean - Rich just which way to go.
I think I'll try to close the metering jets at the front bottom of the Edelbrock, back them off ONE turn and see what happens.

Stay tuned
I'm gonna do that right now.
 
Cam break in doesn't take much aside from it running faster than 1800rpm. That wont indicate much. So now it's a 400" engine with a crappy camshaft. One does not ever buy a camshaft for sound...
It shouldn't backfire out the carb. Chances are that is a spark issue. It should rev clean, whether it's got a 2bbl or Dominator. Check the firing order and timing first. Once those are good - move on to the carb. It shows rich on the plug. Pig rich. So if there is a lot of unburnt fuel in the exhaust system, it can ignite in the system and pop. That's not an exhaust problem. It's an unburnt fuel problem. A retarded camshaft would also cause that condition. Hence the timing, then carb, then compression test.
BTW - cool idea on the build overall. I might do it differently but the approach is awesome.
 
ok look. on the edelbrock there are a couple of things. the two screws on the front are for idle only! get the engine up to temp, then really slowly turn one in til the engine gets a stumble and starts running rough. then back out 1/4 turn. then do the same with the second screw. that should give you a good idle to begin.
its possible your idle and jetting is rich but your accelerator pumpshot is too lean. that usually causes the backfire.
 
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It is relatively easy to tune by sparkplug color. look at this picture. The top part of the porcelain can be a light grey/brown color that would show you your idle. the Jetting is only for cruise and shows in the middle area of the porcelain, you want this close to clean white but at the same time the bottom area around the ground strap needs to be light grey or blackish. This would be only for cruise. One you have your idle adjusted okay, get in the car and try to drive it maybe just out of the driveway and see if it stalls when you give it some throttle. If it backfires through the carb or stalls out, you gotta work on the pumpshot! Dont worry, you will get this sorted out!
 
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