Replacing upper distributor bushing and related questions (CAP)

[patinated_imperial]

So I wanted to check the points gap on my Imperial ('66 - 440") for the first time. With the points on a lobe - they did not visibly open! The engine ran fine. It turned out the shaft in the distributor had a lot of play (I could get the point to open 3/64" (1mm) rocking the shaft back and forth.
Upon disassembly I discovered the upper bushing in the distributor had never been lubricated. The bushing was not rotated correctly, so the oil hole did not line up with the hole in the distributor body. 99% sure it is the original distributor and it has been like that from the factory. I managed to pull the bushing out by cutting an M14 thread in it (on the american continent you would have used a 9/16" as the FSM states). I am certainly not a machinist, but I was lucky enough to locate a piece of bronze and a 1/2" reamer and managed to make a new one. The bushing is 5/8" OD and 1/2" ID.
In the oil passage in the distributor body I found a piece of red felt/fabric (see picture below), which was hard to get out. I assume this is to release the added oil slowly, but the FSM does not mention it. Can anyone confirm that? I haven't put it back in yet.

This car was sold new in LA Calif (as a promo vehicle according to the tag), so it is the first year of the Cleaner Air Package - also known as CAP, which means it had a different carb and distributor. The only thing left of the CAP system is the distributor - I think that is why the clips for the distr. cap is painted green? the FSM mentions green tags on CAP. I also think this it why the thin spring is very thin.
So I followed the FSM for a CAP equipped car and set the initial timing to 5° ATDC. Revving it to 3000 rpm with vacuum advance connected back up advances the timing to a total 40° BTDC. The car drives fine - I think.... it is my first american 60ties car.
Any comments to this CAP distributor and my setup are very welcomed? Bad/good/know issues with CAP?

the turquoise punch is located in the oil passage - one can barely see the hole in the bushing:

Note the red felt piece removed from the bore:

Oil passages lining up now:

The green clips - possibly a CAP indicator?

 

[Turboomni]

@halifaxhops he will help you out. He does everything for these distributors and set up mechanical/vacuum advance, rebuilds, and new old stock point sets and condensors for sale. Good person to know if you run points. You sure look to be a machinist to me and welcome to the forum!

 

[mrfury68]

Welcome to the forum and very nice machine work.

 

[Timothy]

My two cents. I think you are using the wrong bushing. I believe you should be using an oilite (a bushing impregnated with oil) bushing. I never used a reamer on one either as the reamer can close the pours in the bushing. The felt is used to slowly release the oil into the bushing.

 

[Davea Lux]

The bushing you are using will work as long as you remember to give it a shot of oil every time you service the car. Bushings sometimes turned in the housing because they were lacking lubricant. Oilite bushings were one answer to the fact that almost no one bothered to lube the bushing. With a well worn bushing, you should also check the cam lobes on the distributor for wear as they might well be "rounded", ie. well worn, to where you might get erratic high rpm performance. You can check this with a digital caliper across two opposite lobes, they should all read about the same. The lobes wore out because a lot of techs did not bother to lube the lobes with a point replacement. The other part of a good distributor rebuild is to check the mechanical advance to be sure that the mechanism is free. Also check the vacuum advance diaphragm for leaks.

Dave

 

[CBODY67]

The later distributors did not use the external oil cup, so I guess they oiled the bushings from oil vapors from the crankcase? The upper bushing wears from the lateral force of the spring in the distributor points keeping the points' rubbing block against the distributor lobes. On an electronic distributor with no points, the shaft spins easily and without any apparent wear in that upper bushing, by comparison.

The lobes on the distributor shaft should be "sharp" rather than "rounded-off" (i.e., worn). If you really want to do things accurately (in orientation), then set-up a dial indicator to check the point gaps on each lobe. When I did that on a worn 440 6bbl distributor, I was amazed at the lobe-to-lobe variation. Few were exactly the same, so any point settings will relate to that ONE lobe only, which might be considered to be "representative", I guess.

The main differences in the CAP distributors was that they had a lesser initial base timing setting than the non-CAP distributors, BUT after that initial "retarded" timing at lower rpms, by 2000rpm, things were supposed to be closer to what the non-CAP distributors were from then on up to the max rpm advance specs, iirc. In some cases for normal Chrysler B/RB distributors, the initial+2500rpm mechanical advance+vacuum advance can be in the 52 degree BTDC range. The 36-40 degrees BTDC "best total advance setting" normally mentioned is at WOT (when there is little-to-no vacuum advance), rather than at no-load part-throttle, fwiw.

The CAP carbs usually had a slightly higher hot base idle speed and capabilities to meet the 14.2 air/fuel ratio at hot base idle. Possibly some leaner low-midrange fuel calibrations, too? You can probably find a Chrysler MasterTech video on the system at MyMopar.

As long as you're using the OEM CAP distributor, use that initial base timing spec. Always set the point gap first, THEN the ignition base timing, in that order. The point gap/dwell can affect the base timing setting, so do the sequence I mentioned above to keep everything where it needs to be.

Thanks for the pictures and comments!
CBODY67

 

[halifaxhops]

OK That Bushing will work IF LUBRICATED. I would change the lower also has to be worn with the shaft off at top. The red felt roll goes into the passage and is covered by a Gitz cap (oil cap) to slowly lube the shaft and upper bushing, the lower one gets the oil from splashing up from the motor then lifted by the spiral cut on the shaft if that makes sense. Kind of typical the oil hole in the bushing did not align, the bushing was never "burnished" properly to the housing which locks them in and also aligns/polishes them, semi common issue. Green cap clips are a new one on me, usually just blued spring steel Hope it helps.

 

[Big_John]

If it were me, I'd replace the bronze bushing with the proper oilite. Yea, the bronze one will probably work if oiled regularly, an oilite bushing is only a few bucks.

I don't remember the length, so here's one that's longer (1 1/2") and it could be shortened... or find the right length. They are a standard size.
Oilite Bushing Bronze New 1/2 id x 5/8 od x 1 1/2 Brass bearing sleeve bush B60 | eBay

Or the 1" long, which is what I think the bushing is, but I don't remember.... Oilite Bushing Bronze 1/2 id x 5/8 od x 1 Brass bearing bush sleeve spacer B15 | eBay

 

[imperialman]

As someone that has spent 45+ years machining with much of it standing behind a lathe, nice work on the bushing.

 

[patinated_imperial]

I am very happy I found this forum! thanks to all who replied - if I have missed pressing the "thanks" rating.

Also thanks for the hints about Oilite. I know it as "self lubricating bronze" over here. Did not know it was a Chrysler invention (according to wikipedia)

The later distributors did not use the external oil cup, so I guess they oiled the bushings from oil vapors from the crankcase? The upper bushing wears from the lateral force of the spring in the distributor points keeping the points' rubbing block against the distributor lobes. On an electronic distributor with no points, the shaft spins easily and without any apparent wear in that upper bushing, by comparison.

The lobes on the distributor shaft should be "sharp" rather than "rounded-off" (i.e., worn). If you really want to do things accurately (in orientation), then set-up a dial indicator to check the point gaps on each lobe. When I did that on a worn 440 6bbl distributor, I was amazed at the lobe-to-lobe variation. Few were exactly the same, so any point settings will relate to that ONE lobe only, which might be considered to be "representative", I guess.

The main differences in the CAP distributors was that they had a lesser initial base timing setting than the non-CAP distributors, BUT after that initial "retarded" timing at lower rpms, by 2000rpm, things were supposed to be closer to what the non-CAP distributors were from then on up to the max rpm advance specs, iirc. In some cases for normal Chrysler B/RB distributors, the initial+2500rpm mechanical advance+vacuum advance can be in the 52 degree BTDC range. The 36-40 degrees BTDC "best total advance setting" normally mentioned is at WOT (when there is little-to-no vacuum advance), rather than at no-load part-throttle, fwiw.

The CAP carbs usually had a slightly higher hot base idle speed and capabilities to meet the 14.2 air/fuel ratio at hot base idle. Possibly some leaner low-midrange fuel calibrations, too? You can probably find a Chrysler MasterTech video on the system at MyMopar.

As long as you're using the OEM CAP distributor, use that initial base timing spec. Always set the point gap first, THEN the ignition base timing, in that order. The point gap/dwell can affect the base timing setting, so do the sequence I mentioned above to keep everything where it needs to be.

Thanks for the pictures and comments!
CBODY67

The lobes does not look worn to me.... I saw another thread here on the forum where a very rounded one was shown.
I think the car only has 54.000 miles despite it's rough outside apperance.
Thank you for info about the total timing reaching up to 52° BTDC. Makes me worry less about the 40°C I saw, which must have had a significant contribution from the vacuum. It did move around a bit, and I am wondering if it was the (cheap) points floating?
I did watch the master tech video and print the master tech booklet, thanks!
I set the points gap, when the distributor was still out of the car. So much easier! It is so easy to remove the distributor on this car, so I think I will set the points this way in the future.
Please don't give me too much hate for the cheap points - this was all I could get.

OK That Bushing will work IF LUBRICATED. I would change the lower also has to be worn with the shaft off at top. The red felt roll goes into the passage and is covered by a Gitz cap (oil cap) to slowly lube the shaft and upper bushing, the lower one gets the oil from splashing up from the motor then lifted by the spiral cut on the shaft if that makes sense. Kind of typical the oil hole in the bushing did not align, the bushing was never "burnished" properly to the housing which locks them in and also aligns/polishes them, semi common issue. Green cap clips are a new one on me, usually just blued spring steel Hope it helps.

View attachment 450520

View attachment 450521

thanks, and yes; I figured the purpose of spiral cut, and cleaned it thoroughly.

Read about burnishing in the FSM. Unfortunately I don't have access to that tool.
The lower bushing measured Ø0.5004" (Ø12,71mm) at it's bottom - so I let it be. I had to ream the upper bushing again after installation, so I did that through the lower one - as an attempt to make them concentric.

I read the carburetors for CAP had a green tag (and also that CAP specific vacuum valve, which controls distributor vacuum during engine braking). So I figured the green clips could to be to notify the Chrysler techs of the 60ties, that they were dealing with a CAP vehicle and had to set timing at 5° ATDC in stead of 12.5° BTDC...

If it were me, I'd replace the bronze bushing with the proper oilite. Yea, the bronze one will probably work if oiled regularly, an oilite bushing is only a few bucks.

I don't remember the length, so here's one that's longer (1 1/2") and it could be shortened... or find the right length. They are a standard size.
Oilite Bushing Bronze New 1/2 id x 5/8 od x 1 1/2 Brass bearing sleeve bush B60 | eBay

Or the 1" long, which is what I think the bushing is, but I don't remember.... Oilite Bushing Bronze 1/2 id x 5/8 od x 1 Brass bearing bush sleeve spacer B15 | eBay

Ok, so many people are mentioning Oilite, I can't ignore it .
You are correct, the bushing is 1" long.
Thanks for the links. I am in Europe in a country famous for taxes. If I order those bushings there is a high risk I will pay the minimum customs handling fee of approx. 18 usd on top of the shipping cost .
Maybe I will be lucky and find someone who can sell me a set of OE points and 2 bushings in one package from US or here in the EU.
The homemade bushing will however likely last years. Given the climate and the gas prices, the Imperial will probably not see more than 2000miles a year if even 1500.

 

[halifaxhops]

I have them if needed.

 

[patinated_imperial]

As someone that has spent 45+ years machining with much of it standing behind a lathe, nice work on the bushing.

Thanks . I (unfortunately) have a mostly desk job, but attended an "after-school youth club" as a teenager, where I learned to use a 1940-ties lathe in relation to moped and car repair. This was in the early 1990-ties, just a few years before everybody discovered it was dangerously inappropriate to let kids operate lathes. Those where the best years....
I can use the machines at work if I don't brake them and I occasionally take some advice from the real machinists.

 

[patinated_imperial]

I have them if needed.

Great! I will get in touch via PM within a few days.

 

[Bvmarchisotto]

So I wanted to check the points gap on my Imperial ('66 - 440") for the first time. With the points on a lobe - they did not visibly open! The engine ran fine. It turned out the shaft in the distributor had a lot of play (I could get the point to open 3/64" (1mm) rocking the shaft back and forth.
Upon disassembly I discovered the upper bushing in the distributor had never been lubricated. The bushing was not rotated correctly, so the oil hole did not line up with the hole in the distributor body. 99% sure it is the original distributor and it has been like that from the factory. I managed to pull the bushing out by cutting an M14 thread in it (on the american continent you would have used a 9/16" as the FSM states). I am certainly not a machinist, but I was lucky enough to locate a piece of bronze and a 1/2" reamer and managed to make a new one. The bushing is 5/8" OD and 1/2" ID.
In the oil passage in the distributor body I found a piece of red felt/fabric (see picture below), which was hard to get out. I assume this is to release the added oil slowly, but the FSM does not mention it. Can anyone confirm that? I haven't put it back in yet.

This car was sold new in LA Calif (as a promo vehicle according to the tag), so it is the first year of the Cleaner Air Package - also known as CAP, which means it had a different carb and distributor. The only thing left of the CAP system is the distributor - I think that is why the clips for the distr. cap is painted green? the FSM mentions green tags on CAP. I also think this it why the thin spring is very thin.
So I followed the FSM for a CAP equipped car and set the initial timing to 5° ATDC. Revving it to 3000 rpm with vacuum advance connected back up advances the timing to a total 40° BTDC. The car drives fine - I think.... it is my first american 60ties car.
Any comments to this CAP distributor and my setup are very welcomed? Bad/good/know issues with CAP?

View attachment 450444

the turquoise punch is located in the oil passage - one can barely see the hole in the bushing:
View attachment 450452

Note the red felt piece removed from the bore:
View attachment 450450

View attachment 450451

View attachment 450449

View attachment 450448

View attachment 450447

Oil passages lining up now:
View attachment 450446

The green clips - possibly a CAP indicator?
View attachment 450445

Very good write up and thanks for sharing. I need to do this soon myself on a project.

 

[patinated_imperial]

Very good write up and thanks for sharing. I need to do this soon myself on a project.

Thanks, I left out a few details not to make it too long winded. But anyone who takes such a job on, will figure it out.
Upon further investigation I think I am going to put the CAP distributor on a shelf and go for a standard curved one - possibly an electronic. The spring in my non-adjustable vacuum canister is weak, so it advances already at 5"Hg and I think I have some light pinging at cruise. Since the carb anyway is not the original one for CAP, which should have given a leaner idle mixture and higher idle RPM, I don't want to keep working on something, that does not fit together.
If I lived in US or Canada, where access to oilite bushings and original quality contacts were plentiful, I would probably try to find a non-CAP distributor with points.

 

[C-440-300]

I have them if needed.

Sir!
I went to check on my '73 version disti and checked with brass feeler gauge, finding about .004" play (side to side) on the shaft. Thinking I had too wide a gap, I reduced it to what I *thought* was .008". Now(!) I know what that ticking sound is! Re-gapped at .010" and the tick was on one cylinder. Gapped at .012" and nice and quiet. I looked for any shavings/damage and saw none. Engine seems to run OK.
Do you know how much play I should allow?
Thank you (, and Thank You ) for your time!

 

[halifaxhops]

Sir!
I went to check on my '73 version disti and checked with brass feeler gauge, finding about .004" play (side to side) on the shaft. Thinking I had too wide a gap, I reduced it to what I *thought* was .008". Now(!) I know what that ticking sound is! Re-gapped at .010" and the tick was on one cylinder. Gapped at .012" and nice and quiet. I looked for any shavings/damage and saw none. Engine seems to run OK.
Do you know how much play I should allow?
Thank you (, and Thank You ) for your time!

My linit is .003 books is up to .005 but will definitely hit the reluctor if set tight.

 

[Gerald Morris]

The later distributors did not use the external oil cup, so I guess they oiled the bushings from oil vapors from the crankcase? The upper bushing wears from the lateral force of the spring in the distributor points keeping the points' rubbing block against the distributor lobes. On an electronic distributor with no points, the shaft spins easily and without any apparent wear in that upper bushing, by comparison.

The lobes on the distributor shaft should be "sharp" rather than "rounded-off" (i.e., worn). If you really want to do things accurately (in orientation), then set-up a dial indicator to check the point gaps on each lobe. When I did that on a worn 440 6bbl distributor, I was amazed at the lobe-to-lobe variation. Few were exactly the same, so any point settings will relate to that ONE lobe only, which might be considered to be "representative", I guess.

....

Those distributor cam lobes DO wear with a lot of variation! I make that a first priority to check when looking over a distributor now, having found the same thing you did when looking at some "well rounded" ones. Getting new (NOS) ones isn't impossible, though care must be exercised to insure it's meant for the right family of engine, as I learned. (Oh well, maybe if I get an old school /6 some day....) The Hopster has been enormously helpful in schooling me in the basics of working over the single point B block distributors, which has resulted in me having what I think is a lifetime supply of good ones to pop in on a tune-up. Having the 1966 FSM as a good reference also helps neophyte distributor rebuilders like Yours Truly quite a bit.

 

[Boydsdodge]

So I wanted to check the points gap on my Imperial ('66 - 440") for the first time. With the points on a lobe - they did not visibly open! The engine ran fine. It turned out the shaft in the distributor had a lot of play (I could get the point to open 3/64" (1mm) rocking the shaft back and forth.
Upon disassembly I discovered the upper bushing in the distributor had never been lubricated. The bushing was not rotated correctly, so the oil hole did not line up with the hole in the distributor body. 99% sure it is the original distributor and it has been like that from the factory. I managed to pull the bushing out by cutting an M14 thread in it (on the american continent you would have used a 9/16" as the FSM states). I am certainly not a machinist, but I was lucky enough to locate a piece of bronze and a 1/2" reamer and managed to make a new one. The bushing is 5/8" OD and 1/2" ID.
In the oil passage in the distributor body I found a piece of red felt/fabric (see picture below), which was hard to get out. I assume this is to release the added oil slowly, but the FSM does not mention it. Can anyone confirm that? I haven't put it back in yet.

This car was sold new in LA Calif (as a promo vehicle according to the tag), so it is the first year of the Cleaner Air Package - also known as CAP, which means it had a different carb and distributor. The only thing left of the CAP system is the distributor - I think that is why the clips for the distr. cap is painted green? the FSM mentions green tags on CAP. I also think this it why the thin spring is very thin.
So I followed the FSM for a CAP equipped car and set the initial timing to 5° ATDC. Revving it to 3000 rpm with vacuum advance connected back up advances the timing to a total 40° BTDC. The car drives fine - I think.... it is my first american 60ties car.
Any comments to this CAP distributor and my setup are very welcomed? Bad/good/know issues with CAP?

View attachment 450444

the turquoise punch is located in the oil passage - one can barely see the hole in the bushing:
View attachment 450452

Note the red felt piece removed from the bore:
View attachment 450450

View attachment 450451

View attachment 450449

View attachment 450448

View attachment 450447

Oil passages lining up now:
View attachment 450446

The green clips - possibly a CAP indicator?
View attachment 450445

Are you sure you know what you're doing?

 

[halifaxhops]

The bushing you are using will work as long as you remember to give it a shot of oil every time you service the car. Bushings sometimes turned in the housing because they were lacking lubricant. Oilite bushings were one answer to the fact that almost no one bothered to lube the bushing. With a well worn bushing, you should also check the cam lobes on the distributor for wear as they might well be "rounded", ie. well worn, to where you might get erratic high rpm performance. You can check this with a digital caliper across two opposite lobes, they should all read about the same. The lobes wore out because a lot of techs did not bother to lube the lobes with a point replacement. The other part of a good distributor rebuild is to check the mechanical advance to be sure that the mechanism is free. Also check the vacuum advance diaphragm for leaks.

Dave

One things with new bushings they should be burnished which locks them into the housing. I do not think he will have that issue though.