Stuck at the marina tonight, truck wont start

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  1. Wollfen

    Wollfen Old Man with a Hat

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    On Rockauto, they showed me this early type and the even earlier style used with a reluctor, since mine doesn't have a reluctor, I went with this hall effects sensor.
     
  2. Wollfen

    Wollfen Old Man with a Hat

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    Lately I have been weathering a storm of car breakdowns, the wifes 1999 Nissan Sentra, brake lights, turn signals and wipers have all died at once, arrrrrgh, I hate cars.
     
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  3. Davea Lux

    Davea Lux Old Man with a Hat FCBO Gold Member

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    Here is a generic tech article on Hall sensor diagnostics that might be of some use:
    www.brakeandfrontend.com/tech-feature-hall-effect-sensor-diagnostics/
    Trying to chase down the cause of electronic failures is always a PIA. Might want to take your OBD reader and see if there are any stored codes as well.
    Dave
     
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  4. Wollfen

    Wollfen Old Man with a Hat

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    Sadly, I only have an OBDII reader.
     
  5. Wollfen

    Wollfen Old Man with a Hat

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  6. Yeahrightgreer

    Yeahrightgreer Senior Member

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    Hey Gary,

    Glad you were able to get the truck home safe and sound and didn’t have to pay for a tow. Keep us updated if you’re able to figure it out.
     
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  7. Wollfen

    Wollfen Old Man with a Hat

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    Okay, fitted the new sensor today, truck started right up, I drove it for about 30 mins and no hiccups or stalls, seems good now.
     
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  8. Wollfen

    Wollfen Old Man with a Hat

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    All those systems shut down because of a single fuse it seems, a 75 Amp fuse.
     
  9. MoPar Maniac

    MoPar Maniac Well-Known Member

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    Your truck is your code reader. It is, after all, called On Board Diagnostics.
    Heard of the "key dance method" of code reading?
     
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  10. Yeahrightgreer

    Yeahrightgreer Senior Member

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    OBD II Standardization wasn’t required till 96 however each manufacturer often had its own way to diagnose problems.

    Your “OBD I” plug would need a special Chrysler code reader which you Wil never be able to find in 2020 however, you can do the “Key Dance” and it will tell you the diagnostic codes.



    1. Cycle the ignition key 3 times to ON-OFF-ON-OFF-ON within 5 seconds.

    2. You will notice the "check engine" lamp start to flash. Count the amount of times it flashes and record it. The number of flashes represents the code. There will be a slight pause between the flashes representing the first and second digits of the code. Longer pauses separate individual codes. For example, flash-flash-flash [pause] flash-flash represents code 32.

    At the very end, you will receive the code “55”. This essentially means diagnostic over. If this is all you get then you no error codes stored in the computer. This is the normal condition

    Remember, disconnecting the battery for periods at a time will clear the computer.

    Similarly, if you for instance had code “46: alternator output too high.” The computer will store that code for about 3-5 start ups after the last time it was in a output too high state. So if you’ve corrected the problem, and have driven the truck a bunch of times, the could be have cleared.

    (Some of these codes changed during the years from 84-96) so I would reference your service manual for specifics.

    CODE Descriptions

    11 Timing belt skipped 1 tooth or more from initial learned value, Intermittent loss of either camshaft or crankshaft position sensor, No crank reference signal detected during engine cranking
    12 Direct battery input to PCM was disconnected within the last 50 key-on cycles (normal)
    13 No change in MAP from start to run
    14 MAP sensor voltage too low
    15 No vehicle speed sensor signal
    17 Closed loop temp not reached or engine cold too long
    21 02s sensor problem (oxygen sensor), upstream or down stream
    22 Engine coolant temp sensor out of range
    23 Intake air temp sensor out of range
    24 Throttle Position sensor out of range
    25 Idle air control motor circuits, target idle not reached (+/- 200),vacuum leak found
    27 Injector control circuit
    31 Evap purge flow monitor failure or evap solenoid circuit
    32 EGR system failure
    33 A/C clutch relay circuit
    34 Speed control Solenoid circuits
    35 Rad Fan control relay circuit
    37 Torque converter clutch solenoid CKT or park/neutral switch failure
    41 Generator field not switching properly
    42 Fuel pump relay control ckt, Auto shutdown relay control ckt, No ASD relay output voltage at PCM, Fuel level sending unit volts out of range, Fuel level unit No change over miles
    43 Multiple/ single cylinder misfire
    44 Battery temp sensor volts out of range
    45 Overdrive solenoid shorted or open (automatic transmission only)
    46 Charging system voltage too high
    47 Charging system voltage too low
    51 Fuel system lean
    52 Fuel system rich
    53 Internal control failure
    54 No Cam signal at PCM
    55 End of error messages (If you get this only, no errors were found)
    62 PCM failure SRI mile not stored
    63 PCM Failure EEPROM write denied
    64 Catalytic Converter Efficiency Failure
    65 Power steering switch failure

    The Allpar site has a list of al the codes Chrysler Computer Codes, 1980s-1990s
     
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  11. MoPar Maniac

    MoPar Maniac Well-Known Member

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    OBD II vehicles will do it, also. If it has a digital readout odometer it will show the code as an alpha numerical readout, such as, "P0302", meaning misfire on cylinder 2.
     
  12. 70bigblockdodge

    70bigblockdodge Old Man with a Hat FCBO Gold Member

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    Hall effect sensors, what a over engineered POS. Mopars had magnetic pick up trigger in the dizzy for 20 years. Easy to diag dead nuts reliable with 70s electronic tech.
    Well let's through that out for a energized electromagnet, that has 2 ways to fail and is very difficult to diag without piercing wires or wiring in a bunch of jumpers.
    Chrysler wonders why it keeps going out of business.
    For any auto engineers out there, learn this.
    Keep it simple.
     
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  13. 1970FuryConv

    1970FuryConv Senior Member

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    Hi Dave (and others)

    I have a 1990 W150 5.9L with same problem. I replaced Hall effect sensor in distributor 7/28/20. It lasted about a month. Truck is no start again. I replaced the distributor with a rebuilt Cardone unit. Still no start. Input voltage at distributor 9.03V at orange wire. 5.15V at sensor signal wire. 9.03 is 1 volt too high. 5.15 is in spec. Ground wire .2 ohms resistance. BTW, I think pulling the hall effect pickup, leaving electric connected, and checking with the feeler gauge is a great idea!!! Thanks for the article.

    For anyone else reading: I disagree that throttle body injection systems have a crank sensor and a cam sensor. I built this truck including the engine. Distributor hall effect pickup acts as crank and cam sensor. Separate crank and cam sensor came in with the Magnum V8 engines starting 1992 with 5.2 and 1993 with 5.9. Magnum V8 has sequential multi-port fuel injection, not throttle body injection.

    I checked for codes. It has a code for throttle body temp sensor voltage too high or too low. Nothing else.

    At this point, I have replaced ECM (SBEC) with reman, distributor with reman, spark plugs, wires, and ASD relay. I am getting .03V at ignition coil at immediately start up. ASD: I have battery voltage at input power and switch input power, ignition in run & start. No voltage at coil, no fuel at the 2 injectors. SBEC is not grounding ASD. Park/Neutral switch is grounded. I'll check the fuses and use the feeler gauge on the pickup. Any other suggestions are greatly appreciated. Thanks, Ben
     
  14. Davea Lux

    Davea Lux Old Man with a Hat FCBO Gold Member

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    Is the ASD cycling? If you do not have fuel to the injectors or power to the coil, the ASD is probably not being activated. The ECM should be getting signal from the Hall Effect sensor to activate the ASD so that fuel and power to the coil are active. As noted, check the fuses and be sure that the appropriate relays are also active. If this truck is one that had the black plastic box under the hood that holds the relays and fuses, those were famous for getting wet because the enclosure is not water proof. Not sure when the change was made, the older trucks have two relays mounted under the hinge on the driver side, one is the fuel relay, the other is the relay for ASD.

    If the wiring components have gotten wet somehow, they tend to corrode readily, especially if the contaminants contain road salt. Check for that as well. Cardone produces a lot of defective rebuilds, did the replacement distributor come with a new sensor or did you reuse the one that was in the truck?

    Dave
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2020
  15. 1970FuryConv

    1970FuryConv Senior Member

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    1) No fuse box in engine compartment.
    2) SBEC: mounts at front left corner against inside of fender. It has black plastic box around it.
    3) Will continue checking wiring.
    4) Cardone unit came with new Hall effect pickup. I turned the old pickup into NAPA and received a new one under warranty.
     
  16. Davea Lux

    Davea Lux Old Man with a Hat FCBO Gold Member

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    In that case, there are two relays under the driver side hood hinge, one is the fuel pump relay, the other is for the ASD.

    Dave
     
  17. Davea Lux

    Davea Lux Old Man with a Hat FCBO Gold Member

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    Photo attached.

    Dave

    Relay '90 Dodge.JPG
     
  18. 70bigblockdodge

    70bigblockdodge Old Man with a Hat FCBO Gold Member

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    Force feed it what it should need to run. Dump some gas down the throttle body if it lights your looking at fuel as the problem. If not chances are it's ignition related.
    Jump the ASD with wire. Don't leave it connected when not actively trying to start.
     
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  19. 1970FuryConv

    1970FuryConv Senior Member

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    Fuse Box. Only Fuse Box in 1990 W150
    Fuse Box ps.jpg
    This is my 1990 relay set up. ASD controls fuel pump, fuel injectors, and ignition coil. I replaced the ASD with Echlin AR611. Starter Relay: engine cranks well. .2 ohms resistance at park/neutral. Greased both connectors.
    Relays on Fender.jpg
    ASD: 30 is battery power. 87 is main output. 85 is switch input, battery power when ignition on or start. 86 is switch ground. I agree that SBEC (ECM) is not grounding 86. No voltage at ignition coil + at start up. No 87A.
    upload_2020-9-30_9-50-41.png
    IMG_20200923_164827.jpg
     
  20. 1970FuryConv

    1970FuryConv Senior Member

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    Hi Dave
    I think I have a dual problem of the system killing hall effect pickups and ASD not grounding, so no power at ignition coil, fuel injectors, or fuel pump.
    Put timing light on coil wire: no spark at start up
    Put voltmeter on ignition coil +, no voltage at start up.
    I can dump fuel in the throttle body until it's flooded, but with no spark I'm not going any where.
    I can use a paperclip to jump the ASD at the connector, unless you have a better suggestion on how to do it. Maybe a toggle switch to replace ASD if Hall effect pickup is OK?

    Also, do you recommend anyone who could tell me how to convert to conventional electronic ignition, but leave the TBI in place?