Tesla sues Ontario government, alleging customers denied incentives This company has gone off the deep end. He can’t sell his cars so he starts suing governments that don’t agree with his Ponzi scheme.
Tesla is at it again.
- Thread starter Welder guy
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forzav12
Member
Tesla Model 3 Outselling Small And Midsize Luxury Cars In U.S. In July [Infographic]
However you feel about Tesla doesn't change the fact that there are strong sales and demand.
However you feel about Tesla doesn't change the fact that there are strong sales and demand.
rapidtrans
Senior Member
Why do i always think of John DeLorean when I see Elon Musk in the news?
Mike66Chryslers
Senior Member
Actually in this case I have to agree with Tesla based on the facts I've read in the news.
The government set a cutoff date whereby customers who receive their qualifying "green" cars from other manufacturers before that date will receive the subsidy, but Tesla has been excluded and the rebate program is effectively terminated immediately without warning for them. That skews the market in favor of all other manufacturers.
This is not a comment on whether electric cars are any better for the environment, whether Tesla cars are any good or the company is viable long-term. I'm saying that the government should have clear, consistent rules which don't play favorites during the wind-down of the rebate program.
If the original language of the wind-down did not exclude Tesla and was later amended to exclude them, as Tesla contends, it starts to smell like a backroom deal was made with other manufacturer(s) to back-stab Tesla. If confirmed, that would put a quick end to the honeymoon period for the new Doug Ford administration.
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MarPar
Meat Man with a Hat
With a lot of taxpayer help...and I havent seen a dime of interest or dividends
The only way we can sell Hybrid Pacificas in this country was in Ontario with the help of the $12000 green rebate. No one will buy a $60000 Minivan otherwise, The Dealer markup on this model was a paltry $800 so no Dealer in their right mind would stock them without the Govmint rebates. With the rebates gone it is a good thing we sold a ton to Waymo....
I do not feel sorry for the Tesla buyer who no longer gets the big rebate on his $100000 X Model supplemented by taxpayer money. The sooner GM buys out Tesla and makes them cheap and easy the better the take rate will be for this technology.... which is inevitable IMHO
I do not feel sorry for the Tesla buyer who no longer gets the big rebate on his $100000 X Model supplemented by taxpayer money. The sooner GM buys out Tesla and makes them cheap and easy the better the take rate will be for this technology.... which is inevitable IMHO
Mike66Chryslers
Senior Member
Tesla hit on the right marketing strategy to spur the adoption of EVs. Everyone else was trying to build econobox EVs for hairshirts and they didn't sell. The cars had too many compromises and the potential early adopters in the target market would not pay extra for the tech.
Tesla's first models were all aspirational, trendy vehicles that can be sold with high markup, not to cheapskates or eco-warriors but to "champagne socialists" and high-earning tech geeks. It's similar to how the latest features and tech used to go into expensive cars, then trickle down to the lower priced cars over time. The early adopters would pay the markup which paid for the R&D. They were also willing to overlook initial quality issues and still be happy Tesla fans as long as the company kept making a sincere effort to rectify the problems. Those are the kind of customers you want!
There is demand for EVs now partly because the cost of the technology has come down and the practicality of them has gone up to the point that more mainstream consumers will consider them. As you point out though, there are still limits. Nobody bought the mild hybrid pickup trucks then they were available before, and nobody is buying the hybrid Pacifica minivan now without rebates in place. I'm curious what the take rate on the new hybrid Ram pickups will be.
In Ontario, they put restrictions on the rebates, at least in its final incarnation before the program was cancelled. The Model-3 qualified for the maximum rebate, the Model-S and Model-X did not qualify for rebates. There was a formula based on range, seating capacity and price. Model-S and Model-X were over the price limit.
Eligible Electric Vehicles
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Thanks for the updated info. Out here we do not offer any incentives for EV's....cuts into demand for our wonderful Oil...
300rag
It's Not Going to Shift Itself
You mean the same people that will go out and pre-purchase, at a high markup, the latest and greatest iPhone, tablet, or other electronic do-dad without batting an eye? And yes, I'll agree, it was a roundabout way to target Tesla by not allowing cars sold direct to consumer, rather than independent dealer networks.
I do appreciate everyone’s stance on the matter but I feel that if you have to give a $12,000 government subsidy to somebody so they will buy your car , IMO its just not right.
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Rwc
Senior Member
If it takes a $12000 rebate it sounds like they are overpriced. Whether its profit, overhead or a combination, the market is speaking.
In fairness I really believe musk is snake oil salesman who can't produce a good enough product to take straight to market without welfare from the Government
In fairness I really believe musk is snake oil salesman who can't produce a good enough product to take straight to market without welfare from the Government
mr. fix it
Old Man with a Hat
So you’re not jealous
Ontario killed this incentive off this past month
Mike66Chryslers
Senior Member
Regardless whether you agree with it or not, governments have decreed that gasoline=bad and electric=good, but development of internal combustion cars has had a hundred year headstart over battery-electric vehicles. (Prior development of electric cars basically stopped when the electric starter replaced the hand crank to start the engine in gas-powered cars.) Remember the saying "good, fast, or cheap: pick two"? If you want electric cars that are good and you want them now, they won't be cheap.
There's a chicken-and-egg problem where there needs to be consumer demand to get R&D going, but R&D needs to happen to improve the product (greater range, lower cost, charging infrastructure, etc). Again, whether you agree with the idea or not, the rebates are/were intended to skew the auto market to get that positive feedback cycle happening, with the ultimate goal of bringing EVs to the masses.
Tesla has only had ONE profitable quarter in its entire existence. The Model-S and Model-X are profitable, but 1) Tesla has had a difficult time finding economies of scale as production volumes increased, in order to increase profitability, and 2) They have taken all their money and ploughed it back into the company, into new R&D and development of new battery charging infrastructure. They've made some bad decisions though, mostly due to Elon Musk's hubris I think, which may sink the company.
It will all come down to the Model-3. There is lots of pent-up demand for these cars. If they can get them to market fast enough and profitable enough for the company to finally turn a profit overall, Tesla stands a reasonable chance of survival. If not, they're finished.
Rwc
Senior Member
I think part of the problem is that it's not viable now, and hasn't been fo a hundred years. GM and Firestone spent pikes of money buying out the electric trolleys to shut them down so they would be replaced with buses.
It would have been impossible if electric were a reasonable source for transportation.
If EV were really a good alternative there would be fleets of them owned by the government they don't worry about the price. This is elected officials that invest in these deals privately giving themselves kickbacks
It would have been impossible if electric were a reasonable source for transportation.
If EV were really a good alternative there would be fleets of them owned by the government they don't worry about the price. This is elected officials that invest in these deals privately giving themselves kickbacks
Mike66Chryslers
Senior Member
No, before Tesla, most EVs were cramped penalty boxes with short range, small load capacity, no air conditioning, etc. The target market was insufferable eco-warriors or cheapskate hypermilers looking to save every penny. Neither of these groups is very large nor has any money necessarily, so there was no profit in making them. For good examples, look at the "compliance cars" sold only in California.
Fratzog
Old Man with a Hat
While I have some empathy for buyers that bought on the basis of the the rebate, looking at it from a taxpayer POV it is the right move. I might be feeling a bit more kindly towards Tesla if they at least built some of their vehicles in Canada. The previous government incurred the highest debt of any province so we are not in a position to be handing out this kind of welfare. Tesla and all other EVs should rise or fall on their own merits. My .02.
While the current U.S. administration continues down the path of world isolation and climate change denial, the rest of the world is not taking that path, like it or not. China, the world's largest vehicle market, is mandating EV sales for example and even our own U.S. companies are heading down the path of electrification as the ultimate goal, especially Ford and GM - and sooner rather than later. Although FCA might still be behind a bit, that is likely to change some too with naysayer Marchionne gone.
So we can develop the technology with very smart guys like Elon Musk or we can let the Chinese develop the market and we can ultimately buy EVs from them when they have outdistanced us on the world stage. Then we are left trying to sell our gas guzzling big pickups to the rest of the world and see where that gets us.
The U.S. doesn't get good prosperous jobs again by being the world's technology laggard, but rather has to take the lead in developing technology the rest of the world will be craving for and doing it before other countries take the lead.
Read this analysis of the current Tesla Model 3 done by Munroe and Associates, as reported on by Autoline Daily. That company is the premier tear down analysis and costing company that virtually all the major world-wide manufacturers utilize to help benchmark their technology development and guide their future development efforts. I am sure their teardown of the Tesla Model 3 is "must" reading for all the world's manufacturers who buy their reports. I have personally toured their facility and their work, and was astonished at how detailed and thorough they are in what they do. And how respected they are within the auto industry.
And then we can continue to focus on pumping and fracking oil out of our grounds in the U.S. so our good friends in the oil industry can continue to maintain their very healthy bottom line (you know, the Koch Brothers and the like) or we can go down the path of developing renewable energy technologies and sell that equipment to other countries in the future to help make America thrive again rather than just those at the top and in the oil industry for example.
Instead of just whining like tired old men, we can just get smarter and see where the future is and seek to control it rather than continue to get overtaken by it, as seems to be the current goal.
So maybe take a look at this relatively short video and attached article and learn a little bit about what it really takes to make the U.S. succeed, and why I am glad Musk is here rather than somewhere else, so far, like Saudia Arabia for example. Yeah, he can flip out on Twitter a lot like someone else I know, and he may be better served at developing leading edge technology rather than building it in volume that others might do better, but he is definitely leading edge. And we badly need that. And making college education more affordable rather than less so, like other countries are doing, is key to that goal too.
The future of renewable energy is in Texas
So we can develop the technology with very smart guys like Elon Musk or we can let the Chinese develop the market and we can ultimately buy EVs from them when they have outdistanced us on the world stage. Then we are left trying to sell our gas guzzling big pickups to the rest of the world and see where that gets us.
The U.S. doesn't get good prosperous jobs again by being the world's technology laggard, but rather has to take the lead in developing technology the rest of the world will be craving for and doing it before other countries take the lead.
Read this analysis of the current Tesla Model 3 done by Munroe and Associates, as reported on by Autoline Daily. That company is the premier tear down analysis and costing company that virtually all the major world-wide manufacturers utilize to help benchmark their technology development and guide their future development efforts. I am sure their teardown of the Tesla Model 3 is "must" reading for all the world's manufacturers who buy their reports. I have personally toured their facility and their work, and was astonished at how detailed and thorough they are in what they do. And how respected they are within the auto industry.
And then we can continue to focus on pumping and fracking oil out of our grounds in the U.S. so our good friends in the oil industry can continue to maintain their very healthy bottom line (you know, the Koch Brothers and the like) or we can go down the path of developing renewable energy technologies and sell that equipment to other countries in the future to help make America thrive again rather than just those at the top and in the oil industry for example.
Instead of just whining like tired old men, we can just get smarter and see where the future is and seek to control it rather than continue to get overtaken by it, as seems to be the current goal.
So maybe take a look at this relatively short video and attached article and learn a little bit about what it really takes to make the U.S. succeed, and why I am glad Musk is here rather than somewhere else, so far, like Saudia Arabia for example. Yeah, he can flip out on Twitter a lot like someone else I know, and he may be better served at developing leading edge technology rather than building it in volume that others might do better, but he is definitely leading edge. And we badly need that. And making college education more affordable rather than less so, like other countries are doing, is key to that goal too.
The future of renewable energy is in Texas
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tbm3fan
Old Man with a Hat
No, Musk would qualify as a visionary. Until he came out with his cars most manufacturers paid little attention to EV cars. Now every manufacturer is paying attention to his cars with some intent on beating him at his own game such as the Germans. The Chinese won't be far behind. His idea of EV cars has also jump started the advancement of lithium battery design. That is one massively huge deal because whoever comes up with the best design could quite possibly call the shots for the rest of the world. Battery development is where it is at.
Let's not forget that he has also changed the thinking about space with his Space-X and reusable rockets. So whether or not he in the end succeeds with making Tesla a profitable company pales in comparison to the things he has changed. It is great to have people think within the box but the world needs those who can think out of the box. Some of them may be a nut case like Howard Hughes but that shouldn't detract from what they achieved.
There is that saying when something radically new hits the market where people go " I should have thought of that." That pretty much means you never would have thought of that. The reason the other guy thought of it was because he can think far out of the that box, go what if, and then say why not let's try.
tbm3fan
Old Man with a Hat
330dTA
Senior Member
Elon Musk belongs to the rare breed of vidionary leaders who get things done. Like Bob Lutz described in his 2013 book ”Icons and idiots: Straight Talk on Leadership”, it is a breed of men (mostly), who may have the most difficult personal traits, but they have some outstanding personal qualities that make people follow them, and how they get things done against all odds. They make mistakes, as all humans do, but the bottom line is always on the positive side.
Howard Hughes was mentioned, as well as John Z. DeLorean. GM design chief Bill Mitchell might be on the list. Enzo Ferrari would surely be on it, as well as late Sergio Marchionne. You get the picture, I’m sure.
My next DD will be a Tesla Model S.
Howard Hughes was mentioned, as well as John Z. DeLorean. GM design chief Bill Mitchell might be on the list. Enzo Ferrari would surely be on it, as well as late Sergio Marchionne. You get the picture, I’m sure.
My next DD will be a Tesla Model S.
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