400 with a 440 transmission mix-n-match issue?

Brad Nelson

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Location
Gig Harbor, WA
'66 Fury
'72 400
'75 TQ 727
Original drive shaft w/new u-joints
8 3/4 rear w/2.93to1 Sure Grip

Recently rebuilt engine, cam break-in done, currently I've only put about 200 miles on it.
The TQ727 & torque converter originally was behind a 440 from an RV. I can confirm the transmission worked, I had it in another car of mine.

On the highway, in Drive/3rd, between 2800 rpm and 3300 rpm(ish) there is a vibration that can be felt through the whole car.

Where should I be looking for the source?
 
External balance motor with wrong convertor. You'll need a convertor with the correct balance weights to match your 400.
That's where I thought this would go.
My own fault for being cheap and trying to use parts laying around.
Thank you Big_John
 
400 was externally balanced and the 440 could have been either external or internal balanced. If you have a tq converter and flexplate for an internally balanced engine on your 400 this could cause that issue
 
I would check what you have first with the tq converter before buying one just in case a slight chance you already have an external balanced converter and its something else
 
External balance motor with wrong convertor. You'll need a convertor with the correct balance weights to match your 400.
Of course, because I can be a cheap b#$tard, I have the original converter from the '66 Fury (it originally was a 383/auto car).
Will it work?
Or should I just pony up :eek: and buy new?
 
'66 Fury
'72 400
'75 TQ 727
Original drive shaft w/new u-joints
8 3/4 rear w/2.93to1 Sure Grip

Recently rebuilt engine, cam break-in done, currently I've only put about 200 miles on it.
The TQ727 & torque converter originally was behind a 440 from an RV. I can confirm the transmission worked, I had it in another car of mine.

On the highway, in Drive/3rd, between 2800 rpm and 3300 rpm(ish) there is a vibration that can be felt through the whole car.

Where should I be looking for the source?

As mentioned, you possibly have an internal balance and external balance component mix issue. A forged steel crankshafts big block engine has a neutral balance torque converter or flywheel and neutral balance vibration damper, or harmonic balancer, except for 1970-1972 440 6-barrel and many 1970-1974 440 4-barrel high performance engines which had a weighted vibration damper. A cast iron crankshaft big block engine has a weighted torque converter or offset lightened flywheel and a weighted vibration damper, or harmonic balancer. Factory flex plates are all neutral balance. The torque converter weights for a cast iron crankshaft between the 400 and 440 is the same. Pre-1977 will have a weight on each side of the drain plug. A 1977-1978 will have a single "butterfly" weight and no drain plug. Weights can be added or removed on torque converters.

Forged steel crankshaft harmonic balancer and cast iron crankshaft weighted harmonic balancer:
Screenshot 2025-08-04 1.58.22 PM.png


Forged steel crankshaft torque converter and cast iron crankshaft weighted torque converter:
Screenshot 2025-08-04 1.59.04 PM.png


The 1972 400 could have a forged steel or cast iron crankshaft depending on application. The crankshaft for the 400 was a carryover from similar 1971 383 applications. For the following model years, the forged steel crankshaft use in the 400 was phased out. A similar introduction and usage for cast iron crankshafts began in the 1973 model year for 440 engines. The last use of 400 forged steel crankshafts in passenger cars was 1974, typically in manual transmission applications, but were also used in engine numbers 4T400-1-03 through 4T400-1-08, which were two barrel automatic transmission engines. The last use of 440 forged steel crankshafts in passenger cars was 1975. Forged steel crankshafts continued in some Dodge truck applications through 1978, also typically manual transmissions, but most were cast iron.

Directly verify the crankshaft in the 400 if possible. If the 400 has a cast iron crankshaft with a weighted harmonic balancer, it should also have a weighted torque converter. Conversely, if the 400 has a forged steel crankshaft and non-weighted balancer, it should not have a weighted converter.

Your 1966 383 torque converter is a neutral balance converter and will work if the 400 is a forged steel crankshaft neutral internal balance engine. Conversely, for a cast iron crankshaft setup, 400 weights could be added. Aftermarket flex plates, such as from B&M, are also available for using neutral balance torque converters with external balance engines.



Regarding 1972 400 crankshaft usage, reference NOTE 2 in the following from the 1972 Passenger Car Parts Catalog regarding 400 engine crankshafts:
Screenshot 2025-03-31 8.29.36 PM.png


Reference the application section for crankshafts used in the 400 in 1972. The forged steel crankshaft # 2268114 is from the 383.
Screenshot 2025-03-31 8.30.36 PM.png
 
Of course, because I can be a cheap b#$tard, I have the original converter from the '66 Fury (it originally was a 383/auto car).
Will it work?
Or should I just pony up :eek: and buy new?
As @HOT FURY suggested, check what you have first.

Aftermarket flex plates, such as from B&M, are also available for using neutral balance torque converters with external balance engines.

I've used the B&M flexplates and had good success. It may be cheaper to find another convertor, but it is a slick way to solve the problem.
 
As mentioned, you possibly have an internal balance and external balance component mix issue. A forged steel crankshafts big block engine has a neutral balance torque converter or flywheel and neutral balance vibration damper, or harmonic balancer, except for 1970-1972 440 6-barrel and many 1970-1974 440 4-barrel high performance engines which had a weighted vibration damper. A cast iron crankshaft big block engine has a weighted torque converter or offset lightened flywheel and a weighted vibration damper, or harmonic balancer. Factory flex plates are all neutral balance. The torque converter weights for a cast iron crankshaft between the 400 and 440 is the same. Pre-1977 will have a weight on each side of the drain plug. A 1977-1978 will have a single "butterfly" weight and no drain plug. Weights can be added or removed on torque converters.

Forged steel crankshaft harmonic balancer and cast iron crankshaft weighted harmonic balancer:
View attachment 729557

Forged steel crankshaft torque converter and cast iron crankshaft weighted torque converter:
View attachment 729556

The 1972 400 could have a forged steel or cast iron crankshaft depending on application. The crankshaft for the 400 was a carryover from similar 1971 383 applications. For the following model years, the forged steel crankshaft use in the 400 was phased out. A similar introduction and usage for cast iron crankshafts began in the 1973 model year for 440 engines. The last use of 400 forged steel crankshafts in passenger cars was 1974, typically in manual transmission applications, but were also used in engine numbers 4T400-1-03 through 4T400-1-08, which were two barrel automatic transmission engines. The last use of 440 forged steel crankshafts in passenger cars was 1975. Forged steel crankshafts continued in some Dodge truck applications through 1978, also typically manual transmissions, but most were cast iron.

Directly verify the crankshaft in the 400 if possible. If the 400 has a cast iron crankshaft with a weighted harmonic balancer, it should also have a weighted torque converter. Conversely, if the 400 has a forged steel crankshaft and non-weighted balancer, it should not have a weighted converter.

Your 1966 383 torque converter is a neutral balance converter and will work if the 400 is a forged steel crankshaft neutral internal balance engine. Conversely, for a cast iron crankshaft setup, 400 weights could be added. Aftermarket flex plates, such as from B&M, are also available for using neutral balance torque converters with external balance engines.



Regarding 1972 400 crankshaft usage, reference NOTE 2 in the following from the 1972 Passenger Car Parts Catalog regarding 400 engine crankshafts:
View attachment 729554

Reference the application section for crankshafts used in the 400 in 1972. The forged steel crankshaft # 2268114 is from the 383.
View attachment 729555
That's a lot of info that I was trying to find recently, thanks Vaanth.

Attached is pictures of the harmonic balancer and converter weights I currently have.

20250714_133832.jpg


20231104_163757a.jpg
 
That's a lot of info that I was trying to find recently, thanks Vaanth.

Attached is pictures of the harmonic balancer and converter weights I currently have.

View attachment 729559

View attachment 729560

The weighted converter and balancer look correct for a 400 with cast iron crankshaft. So, hopefully, it is a cast iron crankshaft inside. If you can read the number on the balancer, it should be 3614374. The torque converter has had the weights added, possibly by a rebuilder. Original Chrysler mounting was more of a heavy punch/spot weld in the middle of the weight. They look right though that's not a precise measure.

The 66 converter won't work, different splines. Check your converter for weights, add if necessary
I forgot this point. Pre-1967 did have different input shaft splines.

Should have mentioned; try to replicate in neutral.

As mentioned, the vibration should exist running with the transmission in neutral at roughly the same RPM range and similar feel. Under load and at road speed can change it some from running in neutral, but it should still be similarly evident.
 
fwiw when I bought my 68 it had a cast crank 73 440 with the original non balanced converter from the 68 383 trans...it shook badly enough at idle that I bought the car assuming it had a burnt valve and was running on 7 cylinders...if your vibration isn't noticable till 3 grand I think you have another issue...will it shake at that speed in neutral with the engine shut off? could be something as simple as a rear tire way out of balance or out of round...is the rear universal seated properly in the yoke? if one of the caps is sitting up on a locating tab rather than inside of it, the whole thing will shake
 
fwiw when I bought my 68 it had a cast crank 73 440 with the original non balanced converter from the 68 383 trans...it shook badly enough at idle that I bought the car assuming it had a burnt valve and was running on 7 cylinders...if your vibration isn't noticable till 3 grand I think you have another issue...will it shake at that speed in neutral with the engine shut off? could be something as simple as a rear tire way out of balance or out of round...is the rear universal seated properly in the yoke? if one of the caps is sitting up on a locating tab rather than inside of it, the whole thing will shake
Mid-week follow up.
Thanks to all for the tips and info.
Warmed up the engine and revved it up to 3000 rpm(ish) both in Neutral and with it up on jack stands.
No vibrations in Neutral.
While in Drive at idle I thought to make sure the rear tires were true (not bent).
And low what did I see? One tire/rim with an obvious bend.
Now, these are brand new Cooper Cobras, but I dropped them off to have the rubber installed and trusted the shop.
So tomorrow I'm taking that one tire and another 15x7 cop rim I have back to the tire shop and I'm going to insist I watch the work being done.
I'm not 100% sure this is the issue, but I'm going to take it all one thing at a time.
 
I can now rule out the engine/transmission as part of the issue. It is definately speed related.
Though I took the one bent rim out of the equation, I still have a vibration at 65mph or higher. It doesn't come through the steering, it's the whole car (I feel it in the floor boards, my seat, see it in my rear view mirror) .

I feel it's either drive shaft (U-joints are new, don't know if it's bent) or rear end related (it's a 2.93 sure grip in a 742 case I bought used).
But for safety's sake I need to wait until my local highway is empty for testing.
 
I would look at the driveshaft too. You said you never used this one, so it is possible that it is bent.
It's the original to the car (or at least it was in the car when I got it) and I had a local machine shop install new U-joints.
I found no obvious damage or bends while it was out, but that doesn't mean it couldn't have gotten slightly bent. I'm going to plan on having an actual driveline shop spin balance it.
 
It's the original to the car (or at least it was in the car when I got it) and I had a local machine shop install new U-joints.
I found no obvious damage or bends while it was out, but that doesn't mean it couldn't have gotten slightly bent. I'm going to plan on having an actual driveline shop spin balance it.
I've twisted a couple and the vibration is much like you describe.
 
It's the original to the car (or at least it was in the car when I got it) and I had a local machine shop install new U-joints.
I found no obvious damage or bends while it was out, but that doesn't mean it couldn't have gotten slightly bent. I'm going to plan on having an actual driveline shop spin balance it.

Better to get another one. They don't have to be visibly bent to casual observation to still be bent. Once bent, they're likely to bend again. I'm a cheap junky with 3 hungry, growing little monkeys to feed and such, and appreciate thrift, but sometimes penny-wise is indeed DOLLAR DISASTROUS!
 
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