‘65 Imperial brake overheating issue

ab777

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Looking for some input here, I’ve been going around in circles with this issue, my ‘65 Imperial’s left rear drum keeps overheating and destroying the brake shoes, I have rebuilt the booster, changed wheel cylinders from different brands multiple times, tried two different brands of brake shoes, two different brands of hardware, resurfaced the drums twice, all new brake hoses, all new brake lines, yet the same problem. Replaced the axle bearings, wheel bearings, and checked all of them and none have any play.

My mechanic who has been restoring cars for over 40 years and is probably one of the best in the country can’t figure it out. He says the parking brake cable isn’t sticking, so at this point I am not sure what’s the issue, the rest of the 3 wheels do not have such an issue, the only issue is the left rear wheel. Any ideas?
 
I'd say it's time to compare parts side to side and measure everything. Does it pull at all when braking before things heat up/parts get ruined? Did you take any pics before and after the repair(s)? I take pics of everything that's why I ask. Maybe you can show us each side for review.

You can also adjust the problem side very loose and see how long it takes to get hot. A handheld point-and-shoot temp reader is very useful for troubleshooting this. You can put it up on jackstands with wheels off/drums on and have it happen in real time so you can remove the drums right then and there to see if anything sticks out. Don't forget to secure the drums if you do this! :)
There are actually no symptoms such as pulling or anything like that, the only thing I noticed that when it starts to get hot it makes a squealing sound. I noticed it gets hot about driving 30 minutes or so after driving on the highway under very normal conditions. And even when driving it I am very light on the brakes and haven’t encountered any traffic or many stops when driving. I do not believe it is a part issue, because the other rear wheel and the fronts don’t suffer the same issue. And I have also tried different brands of parts to no avail.
 
This is a photo of the first time I noticed it, last time was worse as I took it on a longer drive. 3 different mechanics adjusted the brakes so I highly doubt all of them don’t know how to adjust them especially since the last one does nothing but classic car restorations for the last 40 years and does drums on a daily basis.

IMG_9790.jpeg
 
With having swapped as many parts as you have, it seems to be something in the assembly of that particular wheel as opposed to a part issue. You mentioned you installed two different brands of hardware, but are all of the hardware components (springs, adjuster wheel, etc.) installed in the correct positions and in good working order? Do they operate the same as the original parts (spring rate, etc.)? Aftermarket hardware is not always 100% functionally the same, especially spring rates it seems. Is your adjuster wheel the correct thread for that side? It will physically look the same as the other side, but have opposite threads. If you used old parts, does the adjuster wheel turn or is it frozen from dirt and age? If any part of your hardware is installed incorrectly or not working, the shoes may not self-adjust correctly as you drive. If you are the least bit unsure and the service manual is not clear, ask have someone post a photo of their hardware inside the same drum to compare.

Just to continue to 100% rule out parts, you can temporarily swap the drums left to right and see if the problem follows or remains at the wheel. Same with the shoes.
 
Look at the wear pattern they are not hitting all the way around. Seriously arch them to fit the cut drum. Ask the mechanic about it. They used to do it on every brake job. Easy to do also just put some say 220 PSA strip in the drum, mount them and turn them till the shoes are dressed all the way around to the drums contour, then back them off. Be hard pressed to find a brake archer in use any more.
 
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With having swapped as many parts as you have, it seems to be something in the assembly of that particular wheel as opposed to a part issue. You mentioned you installed two different brands of hardware, but are all of the hardware components (springs, adjuster wheel, etc.) installed in the correct positions and in good working order? Do they operate the same as the original parts (spring rate, etc.)? Aftermarket hardware is not always 100% functionally the same, especially spring rates it seems. Is your adjuster wheel the correct thread for that side? It will physically look the same as the other side, but have opposite threads. If you used old parts, does the adjuster wheel turn or is it frozen from dirt and age? If any part of your hardware is installed incorrectly or not working, the shoes may not self-adjust correctly as you drive. If you are the least bit unsure and the service manual is not clear, ask have someone post a photo of their hardware inside the same drum to compare.

Just to continue to 100% rule out parts, you can temporarily swap the drums left to right and see if the problem follows or remains at the wheel. Same with the shoes.
Yeah in terms of the parts, I have replaced every single component on all 4 wheels. Including the adjuster screw. Like you have mentioned, I will try swapping the left drum over to the right side to see if it causes a problem on the right.
 
With having swapped as many parts as you have, it seems to be something in the assembly of that particular wheel as opposed to a part issue. You mentioned you installed two different brands of hardware, but are all of the hardware components (springs, adjuster wheel, etc.) installed in the correct positions and in good working order? Do they operate the same as the original parts (spring rate, etc.)? Aftermarket hardware is not always 100% functionally the same, especially spring rates it seems. Is your adjuster wheel the correct thread for that side? It will physically look the same as the other side, but have opposite threads. If you used old parts, does the adjuster wheel turn or is it frozen from dirt and age? If any part of your hardware is installed incorrectly or not working, the shoes may not self-adjust correctly as you drive. If you are the least bit unsure and the service manual is not clear, ask have someone post a photo of their hardware inside the same drum to compare.

Just to continue to 100% rule out parts, you can temporarily swap the drums left to right and see if the problem follows or remains at the wheel. Same with the shoes.
I forgot to mention in my last response that whenever I swapped to a different brand of parts like the hardware for example I made sure to replace all 4 sides. And after it would get hot, me and my mechanic took off the wheel and were surprised to see that the drum wasn’t too tight nor was anything sticking. Everything looks normal when you pull of the wheel and drum.
 
In the photo, you shoes appear to be wearing unevenly, more at the bottom.
Have you checked the wheel bearing on that side? A worn or poorly adjusted wheel bearing will sometimes cause weird wear patterns, usually excessive ware at the bottoms of the shoe as a bad bearing will cause the axle to be higher than it should be and it will cause the drum to be tight against the bottom of the shoes.

Dave
 
This caught me eye. It may just be the picture, but that section of tube looks kinked or flattened. Even if it isn't, inspect that tube for any issues.

Kinked.jpg
 
This caught me eye. It may just be the picture, but that section of tube looks kinked or flattened. Even if it isn't, inspect that tube for any issues.

View attachment 742305
Yes unfortunately this brake line was very poorly done by the first mechanic, but I just had my good mechanic who does restorations change all the brake lines from front to back. He made them from stainless steel and are much better than the cheap ones in the photo.
 
In the photo, you shoes appear to be wearing unevenly, more at the bottom.
Have you checked the wheel bearing on that side? A worn or poorly adjusted wheel bearing will sometimes cause weird wear patterns, usually excessive ware at the bottoms of the shoe as a bad bearing will cause the axle to be higher than it should be and it will cause the drum to be tight against the bottom of the shoes.

Dave
The mechanic says the wheel bearing is fine and it is new as well. This is what has been extremely confusing as according to him everything is fine, so I am not sure where the trouble is coming from?
 
Questions:
- you hear a squeal when you brake, but only after you've been driving around for 1/2 hour or so?
- you assume or your know the shoes and/or drum is hot - because you hear a squeal? Or -
- you have somehow measured the drum / shoe temperature and compared it to the other side?
- do you know if the problem side is dragging? Because you've jacked up that tire, put it in neutral, and have problems turning the tire by hand?
- when this problem (heat condition) is happening, does that tire lock up significantly sooner than the other tires upon moderate to hard braking from speed?

I assume your rear brakes have the star wheel adjuster mechanism, to advance the shoes towards the drum as they wear. Here's a theory: Your adjuster has positioned your shoes, when cold, to a satisfactory position with respect to the drum (a satisfactory gap). But as you drive and brake, your shoes heat up (which is normal) but the gap closes up and your shoes are touching the drum when they shouldn't be. As a test, configure that wheel for manual adjustment - take the wire off and put a spring across the adjuster wheel (remove the wire and the adjuster plate). I believe I've read where police cars with 3" rear shoes have this setup - the manual adjuster setup. Back off the adjuster wheel so that the drum spins freely when cold, so there's a good gap between the shoes and drum, then drive and see how that goes.

> In the photo, you shoes appear to be wearing unevenly, more at the bottom.

The brake shoes will float and will find their optimal position when applied, I can't see how a wear pattern could develop based on an off-set wheel bearing. Perhaps brake shoes that are extra wide, like the 3" shoes, don't have a stiff-enough backing plate, and most of the wear will be along the center spine (because that's where the piston is pushing).

Check that the shoes are correctly mounted - the shoe with less braking material is mounted on the forward-facing side of the wheel.

Alternate theory: There is junk in the brake distribution block acting like a 1-way valve. You apply the brakes, fluid moves towards the wheel cylinders, you take you foot off, the fluid is supposed to flow back, but in the rear distribution block the channel for that wheel has junk that plugs a passage and pressure is maintained in that wheel cylinder. The junk being particles of the inside of the rear flex brake hose. Take that block off, blow air through it, look at the ports under a magnifier, pic at them with a needle or pass a wire through them, wash the block in solvent.
 
Questions:
- you hear a squeal when you brake, but only after you've been driving around for 1/2 hour or so?
- you assume or your know the shoes and/or drum is hot - because you hear a squeal? Or -
- you have somehow measured the drum / shoe temperature and compared it to the other side?
- do you know if the problem side is dragging? Because you've jacked up that tire, put it in neutral, and have problems turning the tire by hand?
- when this problem (heat condition) is happening, does that tire lock up significantly sooner than the other tires upon moderate to hard braking from speed?

I assume your rear brakes have the star wheel adjuster mechanism, to advance the shoes towards the drum as they wear. Here's a theory: Your adjuster has positioned your shoes, when cold, to a satisfactory position with respect to the drum (a satisfactory gap). But as you drive and brake, your shoes heat up (which is normal) but the gap closes up and your shoes are touching the drum when they shouldn't be. As a test, configure that wheel for manual adjustment - take the wire off and put a spring across the adjuster wheel (remove the wire and the adjuster plate). I believe I've read where police cars with 3" rear shoes have this setup - the manual adjuster setup. Back off the adjuster wheel so that the drum spins freely when cold, so there's a good gap between the shoes and drum, then drive and see how that goes.

> In the photo, you shoes appear to be wearing unevenly, more at the bottom.

The brake shoes will float and will find their optimal position when applied, I can't see how a wear pattern could develop based on an off-set wheel bearing. Perhaps brake shoes that are extra wide, like the 3" shoes, don't have a stiff-enough backing plate, and most of the wear will be along the center spine (because that's where the piston is pushing).

Check that the shoes are correctly mounted - the shoe with less braking material is mounted on the forward-facing side of the wheel.

Alternate theory: There is junk in the brake distribution block acting like a 1-way valve. You apply the brakes, fluid moves towards the wheel cylinders, you take you foot off, the fluid is supposed to flow back, but in the rear distribution block the channel for that wheel has junk that plugs a passage and pressure is maintained in that wheel cylinder. The junk being particles of the inside of the rear flex brake hose. Take that block off, blow air through it, look at the ports under a magnifier, pic at them with a needle or pass a wire through them, wash the block in solvent.
1. When I purchased the car I didn’t really drive it because it need a total brake and suspension etc overhaul. When I bought it, the rear left brake shoes which is the side I am having trouble with actually had a crack right in the middle of the shoe.

2. After getting the car road worthy, the first time I drove it and then got out of the car there was a bunch of smoke coming out of the left wheel and the hubcap was extremely hot to the touch.

3. After this first incident, I replaced the brake shoes, wheel cylinders, hardware and used a different brand just to rule out any issues, the first 50 miles or so the car drove great then I started to notice a squealing noise.

4. Drove the car a couple more times and would notice the brakes squealing after driving it for a while, then I noticed that the squealing was coming from that same wheel and then once again that wheel started smoking again with a very bad smell.

5. My mechanic told me to drive it to him so that he could see that wheel get hot in front of him. I got to him, and we noticed that the drum wasn’t really sticking or dragging and you could move the drum with your hands.

6. And yes I did check the temperature with a infrared thermometer and that wheel with the problem when hot is usually 3 or 4 times hotter than the other 3 wheels.
 
Something is rubbing in the wheel when it's turning. Doesn't seem to be related to brake application. You say you've changed the bearings? Seals too?

The drums are the correct width for the backing plate and shoes yes?

A long shot - Have you checked the differential oil? The oil level?
 
Something is rubbing in the wheel when it's turning. Doesn't seem to be related to brake application. You say you've changed the bearings? Seals too?

The drums are the correct width for the backing plate and shoes yes?

A long shot - Have you checked the differential oil? The oil level?
All the wheel and axle bearings have been changed. The seals and gaskets have been changed too. And the fluid in the differential is new.

The drums appear to be the correct drums and appear to be the ones that are original to the car.
 
Looking for some input here, I’ve been going around in circles with this issue, my ‘65 Imperial’s left rear drum keeps overheating and destroying the brake shoes, I have rebuilt the booster, changed wheel cylinders from different brands multiple times, tried two different brands of brake shoes, two different brands of hardware, resurfaced the drums twice, all new brake hoses, all new brake lines, yet the same problem. Replaced the axle bearings, wheel bearings, and checked all of them and none have any play.

My mechanic who has been restoring cars for over 40 years and is probably one of the best in the country can’t figure it out. He says the parking brake cable isn’t sticking, so at this point I am not sure what’s the issue, the rest of the 3 wheels do not have such an issue, the only issue is the left rear wheel. Any ideas?
I've had this problem with more than one Imperial (of the 28 I've owned), but usually in the front, and usually because the brake hose for that wheel had internally collapsed and was holding pressure against the shoes, which heated up the drum. In the back of your 65, there's only one brake hose, and it services both sides. WHAT IF, somewhere between the brake line splitter and the brake cylinder on the affected side there's a blockage that is serving as a "one way valve" to hold pressure on that particular drum after one or two brake actuations. Should you blow through the splitter and lines, maybe?
 
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