“Transmission PITA” or “Why I hate new(er) cars”

[shooter65]

I got the 2006 Charger SXT, 3.5L out for the first time this summer prepairing to swap the 2010 Avenger R/T 3.5L for my wife. The Avenger is her winter car. The Charger has approximately 98k miles and I was planning to do all the 100k mile maintenance. We’re also probably going to sell this car this year…..finally, If I can find a 2019/2020 Charger my wife likes before they f them up so I wanted to have all this work documented for the future “hopefully” caretaker.

I had my mechanic do most of the work. My intent was to do, or have done, the following:

Oil and filter change which I do every 3k miles.
Serpentine belt
Plugs
Coil Packs
Water pump
Timing belt
Timing belt tensioner
Drain and refill differential gear oil.
Inspection
Transmission filter and fluid drain and refill.
Detail – Twice a year.

I changed the oil and serpentine belt and asked the mechanic do the other work other than the detailing.

My mechanic did all the work except the transmission filter/fluid. Now the fun begins. My mechanic told me that, not only do they not have the proper scan tool for the transmission fluid refill but also the “For Dealer Use Only” plug for the transmission fill tube is missing and that the dealer won’t sell him one to replace it.

I had work done on the trans years ago because an internal sensor went bad and I’ve had it serviced a couple of times but now I’m wondering how long the plug has been missing and how much garbage has fallen in through the tube. I guess I’ll be trying to find a trans shop who won’t try to rip me off.

Too boot, I tried to make an appointment to get the car detailed by the guy who used to do it but he went out of business so now I’ll have to do the detailing myself which I don’t have time to do. I have four to detail and I’m already behind when I would normally do it. Auto Detailers are in short supply in my area and they are all drastically overbooked.

My issues are, where to get the trans tube plug and where to find a dealer/trans shop that won’t try to screw me. I’ll try the junkyards because I couldn’t find the plug on ebay.

Rant over.

 

[70bigblockdodge]

The plug was for the NAG trans (Mercedes). Reason being to keep people from putting regular Dexron/Mercon in it. It takes special fluid that is like $17-$22 a quart. You can buy the factory "tool", which is really just a dipstick. The idea being you had to take it to a trained professional that would put the right fluid in it. The "tool" is all over the web $5-$15. Search 2006 3.5L charger dipstick.

 

[Dobalovr]

The proper procedure for the Nag1 transmission fluid check is at several different operating temps as the levels change as temp changes thus people were adding fluid thinking it was low but in reality was correct for the temperature. Suggest you take it to a Dealer for the proper servicing.

For the wife.....
The 2019 Dodge Charger SRT Hellcat Adds the Aggressively Named Octane Edition

 

[PST]

I have a 2011 Charger R/T and have run in to the similar situation. When the car hit 40k I had it at the dealer for a recall. I was aware of the "no dip stick" and special fluid deal. So for the heck of it I asked them what was the cost for a trans flush and filter change. The cost was just under $300. Which in my opinion wasn't bad as the oil was over $10 a quart and if I bought the oil myself I be into to it over $150 just in oil with a complete flush using my machine. Plus they have the scanner and all the other tools. For me it wasn't worth the additional headache of me doing it myself at that point. Id rather spent free time wrenching on one of my classics.

James

 

[commando1]

The plug was for the NAG trans (Mercedes). Reason being to keep people from putting regular Dexron/Mercon in it. It takes special fluid that is like $17-$22 a quart. You can buy the factory "tool", which is really just a dipstick. The idea being you had to take it to a trained professional that would put the right fluid in it. The "tool" is all over the web $5-$15. Search 2006 3.5L charger dipstick.

Why do you know this ****???

 

[PST]

Before the diptick "tool" was available people on the late model Charger/challenger forums were using a 3ft to 4ft zip tie and getting the car on a flat surface at operating temp and sliding the zip tie in till it bottom out on the pan. They than pulled the zip tie and made a mark on it off the full. Basically making their own dipstick. There are many forums discussing this method. For me it wasn't worth it as these trans can be problematic to begin with so I sent it off to the dealer.

Here is the tool that others are refering to:
Dorman Products - 917-327

 

[3C's & a D?]

That's too bad that the cap is missing, that's a good example of why you should always look over your car after having someone else work on it, everybody makes mistakes/forgets the easiest/final step. Until you find one, a rubber stopper or even piece of tape will suffice. I recently did my 2006 SXT Magnum's NAG1 filter. Easiest tranny job ever! Six bolts, rubber "cup" style gasket (great design) and snap in filter. Took less than half an hour on a concrete pad. I used the zip tie trick with 60, 65 and 70 mm increments marked and top of tube marked. Checked it three or four times over the course of a week, then brought it to a Dodge dealer where I know one of the service writers (who got me the ATF+4), just to make sure. Turns out I got it right!

 

[shooter65]

Yeah, I should have checked it for sure, I already have a temp solution for the missing cap and I've made an appointment to have the trans served at my local Dodge dealer. Thanks

 

[CBODY67]

It's great that the other forums have that trans service situation well documented and explained!

I understand if some might not want to spend that much money for something they might be able to do themselves (OR used to do themselves), but as flalky as some of the new stuff has become, letting somebody else do the deal has advantages. Although ATF+4 fluid seems to be available lots of places, getting the "real stuff" from the dealer ensures you get what you need, plus getting it installed and "leveled" correctly. THEIR warranty, not yours, too.

Enjoy!
CBODY67

 

[commando1]

Can't even check and maintain our OWN ATF anymore.

 

[300rag]

Can't even check and maintain our OWN ATF anymore.

You couldn't check or add it on the 3.4 that was in my '02 Alero.

 

[1970FuryConv]

Before the diptick "tool" was available people on the late model Charger/challenger forums were using a 3ft to 4ft zip tie and getting the car on a flat surface at operating temp and sliding the zip tie in till it bottom out on the pan. They than pulled the zip tie and made a mark on it off the full. Basically making their own dipstick. There are many forums discussing this method. For me it wasn't worth it as these trans can be problematic to begin with so I sent it off to the dealer.

Here is the tool that others are refering to:
Dorman Products - 917-327

For my wife's 2011 Nitro 3.7 V6 42RLE Trans ATF+4
I agree with changing the trans oil and filter and checking the trans oil DIY
My wife's truck is nearing 100K miles. Have changed fluid and filter twice. No problems. Don't have $300 to pay a dealer, wallet issue.
· Dorman 917-327 Trans Oil Level Tool measured in mm. Purchased at AutoZone $22.10. (Miller Tool 9336A is same but more the double the price.) Correct trans oil depth in mm based on temperature. Measured in mm from bottom of trans pan. Insert Dorman tool until it hits bottom of pan, after trans reaches normal operating temp. Drive it for at least 10 minutes before checking. In our Nitro, trans oil rises with heat very slowly. Coolant temp is not indicative of trans oil temp.

· 185-195 degrees F is normal, so 45mm should be approximately the correct Full, Hot, Trans in Neutral measurement. 220 degrees F should be max temp, so if measure over 50mm, trans is overfilled. Copied from directions I received with the Dorman tool. Similar diagram in FSM.

Rubber plug also missing on mine. I used a cutoff dipstick handle.
2007-2011 Dodge Dakota 42RLE Dipstick (53032609AA Mopar#, Yellow handle below) $20.66 on ebay with free ship, but junkyard is cheaper.

 

[70bigblockdodge]

Why do you know this ****???

When I was talking to my transmission guy, I had mentioned I had a Chrysler 300. He said "oh those have the greatest transmission in the world" my reply was a WTF look on my face. He was talking about these NAG 1 trans and it never needs checking ie: greatest trans in the world. Not the type of trans or car I had, but now you know the rest of the story.

 

[cantflip]

Late to this, @shooter65 if you want, I have lots of fluid, a MB dealer tool dipstick, and probably some caps and maybe even a break off red lock or two... plus a crap load of shifter bushings left over from my former life in the MB dealer.

http://www.dipstick.eu/download/en/...edes 722.6 722.7 722.8 professional tools.pdf

If your stuff looks like the pictures at the top of the link, I can bring what I've got to Carlisle... was debating bringing it for the swap anyhow. I wouldn't trust the transmission to many folks outside of the dealer... too many shops are willing to use "universal" fluids that are not compatible with the transmission.

 

[Zymurgy]

This was the same thing I ran into when I decided to change the transmission fluid myself on my 2004 Sprinter, but I created a bigger problem.

I didn't get my sensor plug inserted fully, it went into a lump mode and stayed in second gear. I bought a computer scanner for $600 to do this and future work. Even after discovering this and fully inserting the plug, no difference. I couldn't get the computer to read anything from the transmission input. Other diagnostics were working fine from the van.

I gave up and towed it to the dealership, they redid all my work which was done correctly. They couldn't get the computer to read the transmission either and it stayed in 2nd.

Amazingly the tech noted an aftermarket radio in his general notes. I had a subwoofer professional installed when the van was brand new. Here to find out they tapped into the signal line to the transmission, for the trigger signal to turn on the amp.

I had no problems for 5 years and some how this slight difference in the current wouldn't let the transmission reset to normal operation or even read the data coming from the transmission. The tech disconnected the amp line and then it was fine.

I would have `never in a million years found this problem. You couldn't see the wire tap unless you removed the seat.

I would just take yours to the dealership and have them do it right. They have the equipment to do what used to be a simple task, not any more.

 

[shooter65]

That's a whole other *****.....The aftermarket stereo guy obviously didn't know anything about modern electronic control modules, i.e. lighting control modules engine control modules, electronic control modules, etc...... You have to be VERY careful adding any aftermarket electronics to a modern vehicle now.

Here's a couple more things that I find frustrating/annoying/confusing.

Modern cars are like modern aircraft, very little is done mechanically anymore, most of it is fly/drive by wire. i.e. electronic sensors/modules control all the systems on modern aircraft and cars. i.e. Boeing Maxx jets hit the dirt because an altimeter control module misread a tom of flight data, compensated the altitude into the ground so only a very experienced pilot could overcome the impending disaster.

First *****....autonomous cars. Because of the aforementioned Boeing Maxx jet issue, the pilot's union is constantly fighting any autonomous systems on aircraft but everyone is running head long into autonomous cars. I was talking to someone recently who made the argument that "wouldn't you have a moral obligation to have a "driverless" car in 50 years when the bugs are worked out." My answers were these, we both work in IT.

1 - "Have you ever developed technology that worked for every scenario today but in two years, a new scenario arouse that you couldn't possibly have planned for?" If any IT professional tells you this hasn't happened to them, they're a liar or they haven't done much or been in the field very long.

2 - "The woman killed in Arizona by an Uber "self-driving" car was killed because the system incorrectly identified her pushing her bike as a car preparing to pull out from a side road. The system determined that the "car" pulling from the side road would be out of the way before the Uber car reached that point. Obviously incorrectly. Several years ago, a Tesla owner was driving in "Self-driving" mode and the car drove into the back of a tractor trailer, it was determined that the glare from the Florida sun caused the proximity sensor/camera on the front of the car to not register the tractor trailer."

3 - "Last summer, I had to replace the throttle position sensor on my wife's 2010 Avenger R/T. When it failed, the engine would rev intermittently, without warning even in gear. I was driving when this first happened and I quickly pulled over with my foot on the break, put it in park and shut it off. How or Why would the autonomous systems on a car, recognize this?"

4 - "As the technology becomes more accepted, the demand will increase which will force companies to find ways to reduce cost to be more competitive and sell more cars to meet demand while increasing stock prices. What will the quality/reliability of the components/sensors be when costs are cut....Think Takata airbags. I guarantee everyone was using Takata because of price point and not some moral obligation to use the best air bag module."

Second *****....working on you vehicle. My 2012 Ram SLT had shitty head lights when I bought it. You could only get the quad beam headlights on higher option trucks, SLT and below only offered dual beam headlights. After calls and trips to the local dealer parts stores were some crazy excuses and recommendations were made, I sent letters to FCA. To their credit, they came through and sent two separate dealers instructions on how to install quad beam headlights on my truck. Turns out, the only issue was that the Lighting Control Module had to be re-flashed with the proper code to recognize the quad beam headlights.

Why FCA, and every other manufacturer I'm sure, doesn't provide the dealerships the ability to flash these modules themselves to upgrade factory options is beyond me. I was perfectly willing to pay for the quad beam lights and labor to install and enable the quad beam lights on the LCM but FCA footed the bill. I'm not complaining about that but there is a money making business opportunity there.

 

[shooter65]

Late to this, @shooter65 if you want, I have lots of fluid, a MB dealer tool dipstick, and probably some caps and maybe even a break off red lock or two... plus a crap load of shifter bushings left over from my former life in the MB dealer.

http://www.dipstick.eu/download/en/1.Users manual dipstick mercedes 722.6 722.7 722.8 professional tools.pdf

If your stuff looks like the pictures at the top of the link, I can bring what I've got to Carlisle... was debating bringing it for the swap anyhow. I wouldn't trust the transmission to many folks outside of the dealer... too many shops are willing to use "universal" fluids that are not compatible with the transmission.

Thanks Jeff, I'll have to see if I can swing Carlisle this year. I'll certainly let you know in plenty of time.

 

[CBODY67]

In the "classic" way of doing things, we'd put the car on a secure lift, get a big drain pan, and do the messy deal of loosening the trans oil pan to let the fluid drip into (hopefully, mostly) the drain pan. Then ease the filled drain pan to some other container for later disposal/use. Then, amid the latent drips of fluid from the valve body and such, quickly R&R the filter, clean the pan gasket contact area, put the pan back on (not over-tightening the bolts!), install the fluid, run the engine to get things pretty much up to temperature for a more accurate check, and call it "good".

When there was just Type A, Dexron (family), or Type F fluids, no big deal as the TF would do fine with any of them. BUT when we started to get lock-up torque converters and electronic controls, THINGS CHANGED a bit.

Later fluids were "friction-modified" more than previously and THAT generated the Chrysler ATF family of fluids and related specs. Some of the earlier ATF fluids were similar, but better, than the previous (allowable, earlier on) LH trans spec of "Dexron + Chry Additive" fluid. As the lock-up torque converters were modulated MORE and their actions sought to be more "invisible", additional fluid friction modifiers were added to make all of these things happen as well as they do. I'm NOT sure of the backward-compatibility of the Chrysler ATF fluid specs as to our older TFs, though, but there are still plenty of Dexron III and Ford Type F fluid options still around to not really have to worry about that.

Many of the newer fluids are either part-syn or full-syn fluids, which the price of such can reflect. On some recent GM automatics, the torque converter is modulated to 50% apply in certain situations, which needs a full-syn fluid to handle, for example. As many Allison trans fluids have been Castrol synthetic trans fluid for years.

The "take it to the dealership" is usually a good default mode situation, for many people. Especially on the newer (more than 4-speed classic TFs!). Otherwise, the DIYr will need to purchase the necessary tools to check the fluid on EACH newer vehicle they might purchase. Probably more of a hassle than a big expense? But still needed. No real issues there as the tools are apparently available on the open market, just get the correct one. The biggest remaining issue is getting the correct fluid (or the later supercession thereof!) for the job. The OEM info should be in the owner's manual.

GM deleted the auto trans dipstick on one of their fwd automatics in the '90s. Just remove the pan and drain the fluid. Button things back up and install the specified amount of fluid through the access hole (where the dipstick used to be), reinstall the plug, done. No need to check the fluid as long as the trans operated normally. If it acted up, take it to a shop for repair. Nothing unusual about that orientation! Just that we can't do driveway diagnostics in that respect, per se.

In the modern era, FEW automatic trans operational issues are caused by "low fluid", by observation. Usually some electronic issue, more than anything else. Yet the fluid level was an easy thing to check (fluid level, color, and smell), in earlier times. As well as modern vehicles are "sealed" as to fluids, ANY fluid leak will probably be very obvious, which generally results in a trip to the shop for a "look-see".

As these vehicle age, the "dealer-only" orientation can diminish a bit. Necessary tools will or have become available through other channels. Then finding somebody that knows what they are for AND how to use them becomes an issue. Nothing major, probably just an understanding of the situation (education).

Just as the Electronic Lean Burn system could be diagnosed with a wiring schematic and VOM, these newer technologies can be similar . . . just more "education" is needed in different areas.

So . . . y'all enjoy!
CBODY67

 

[shooter65]

I forgot to mention my last *****...."For Dealer Use Only"..... According to the FTC (Federal Trade Commission), the nation's consumer protection agency, factory warranties and repairs cannot be required to be done by the dealer. The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act prohibits dealers from refusing to honor your warranty if someone else performs the repairs.

 

[CBODY67]

Second *****....working on you vehicle. My 2012 Ram SLT had shitty head lights when I bought it. You could only get the quad beam headlights on higher option trucks, SLT and below only offered dual beam headlights. After calls and trips to the local dealer parts stores were some crazy excuses and recommendations were made, I sent letters to FCA. To their credit, they came through and sent two separate dealers instructions on how to install quad beam headlights on my truck. Turns out, the only issue was that the Lighting Control Module had to be re-flashed with the proper code to recognize the quad beam headlights.

Why FCA, and every other manufacturer I'm sure, doesn't provide the dealerships the ability to flash these modules themselves to upgrade factory options is beyond me. I was perfectly willing to pay for the quad beam lights and labor to install and enable the quad beam lights on the LCM but FCA footed the bill. I'm not complaining about that but there is a money making business opportunity there.

There's ONE phrase for this situation . . . "product liability". FCA CAN control what dealerships do in repairs, but if they do anything to alter the "as-produced" state of the vehicle, UNLESS FCA instructs them how to do it via TSBs. We might suspect that some dealer tech might correctly interpret the difference in the headlight systems OR how to determine which one was which, BUT going to the default mode of not telling them anything can be best, from the OEM standpoint.

Now, if FCA put out a TSB or dealer letter and/or upgraded their tech literature to state than an upgrade was possible with OEM-supplie make ssensdd items, which would then need a re-flash to complete, that's a whole 'nuther situation. BUT if the new parts are installed and the re-flash does not happen, for whatever reason, does that make FCA liable when the headlights don't work correctly the first time the headlights are needed? Possibly resulting in injury, property damage, or death? So, the default mode of not giving all of this information to the dealers makes sense at the OEM Level of things. Although it might seen like a minor deal to a consumer, with all due respect.

In some cases, the product literature could be updated to indicate that the one BCM will work for both types of headlights, as might also be indicated by the parts book, which would THEN lead to a deep-dive into the BCM re-flash issue in the service manual literature. BUT how many modern techs might know how to do that OR be willing to find out? Presuming "plug and play".

OR, now that your upgrade has been properly done, what might happen down the road with a later owner situation, should a re-flash by VIN happen? LOTS of "danged Chrysler electronics @(@A#A#&$AY^!!" dialogue, probably. Who's going to tell those later techs what the fix might be? OR how to figure it out?

Self-driving cars? Not nearly as soon as many might like! Far too many municipalities don't have consistently good pavement markings in place (old, eroded, evaporated, etc.) for the optical sensors to work with. GPS alone won't do it, I suspect. Many reports of self-driving (somewhat) current vehicles not knowing what to do when a new expanse of fresh, unmarked pavement is encountered have been noted. In other words, massive infrastructure maintenance issues at play here!

Affordability of such? Another issue nobody is talking about very much. The Cadillac Super Cruise option is probably the most sophisticated driver-assist system available. Special steering wheel lights to indicate operation, internal cameras to see if the driver is awake (eye and head motions), interface with GPS and OnStar, AND the capability of steering the car off of the road should the driver become unresponsive to various stimuli (seat vibrations, verbal, etc.), with related and suspected "calls to first-responders" in that case.

In the Boeing issue, there were other issues at play other than what was initially mentioned. Including the "optional equipment" of a warning light for the system? Experienced pilots had the gumption to turn off the system, it seems, due to some training activities?

Vehicle electronics have made driving easier for "dummies", allowing them to stay out of trouble in situations which could have been deadly in prior times, which might have required expert driving capabilities to get out of. It all happens seamlessly, now. No drama. BUT, it also means that when something goes wrong with those systems, the local mechanic shop might not be able to effectively deal with it in a timely and efficient manner. Which means "dealership recommended" as the default mode of things . . . as much as some might be averse to such.

A computer is only as good as the code which runs it, by observation. Which is an ever-changing landscape as time progresses.

Enjoy!
CBODY67