1977 Mopar V-8: Did ALL 1977's have LEAN BURN, or just the ones with 4bbl carbs?

watchfatha

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In 1976 I purchased a new 1976 Dodge Royal Monaco Brougham with the 400 ELB (first year Lean Burn). The technology was of interest to me so I kept following its development and learned (or so I thought) that although in 1976 Lean Burn was an option ONLY on 400cu in larger sized cars, it was made universal on all Mopar v-8's in 1977. However, yesterday I saw an extremely low mileage 1977 Dodge RMB for sale with a 360 and no Lean Burn, which the owner states was not placed on 360 2bbl cars in 1977.

So, does anybody have the correct information on this topic.

I know this is silly, but I'd like to know.

Thanks
 
1977 Dealer data book. The 1970 Hamtramck Registry - 1977 Plymouth Dealership Data Book - Engineering

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Trucks with a GVW over 6000lbs were exempt ftom certain emission standards so most did not have ELB nor cat convertors.
Feds got smart in 79and jacked up the emission requirements over 6200lbs.
Cat convertors , ELB were in and the B/RB engines plus the Lil Red Express was out.
 
When ELB evolved into "Electronic Spark Control", the computer on the air cleaner was still there, but not the extra-lean carb calibration.

The "extra-lean" part is significant as with a 17.0:1 air fuel ratio, all emissions components went low enough that cat converters were not needed to meet the standards those years. After '78, everything up to 8600lbs gvw was classified "Light-Duty Emissions", with everything above 8600lbs GVW being classified as "Heavy-Duty Emissions", still keeping lower gvw items, but no cat converters on the particular vehicles. This is for USA-spec vehicles.

Just because a Chrysler engine has a computer hanging off of the air cleaner does not automatically mean the engine is ELB. GM and Ford put their engine computers inside the passenger compartment, Chrysler "potted" them and put them on the side of the air cleaner.

Just some observations,
CBODY67
 
Many folks believe that because a vehicle had a spark control computer on the side of the air cleaners that the system was thereby "Lean Burn" but the actual air fuel ratios delivered to the engine were controlled solely by the carburetor. The Lean Burn garbage was sold to the chief engineer in charge of fuel systems at the time by a guy named Gordon Fenn. The guy had a doctorate degree of some kind in engineering and thought he was the smartest guy in the whole corporation, all you had to do was ask him.

Anyway, I talked with the Carter and Holley reps stationed in the fuel systems lab at the time about the new development as early as 1973 - 1974. They both told me that the fuel/air calibrations that Mr. Fenn demanded and the allowed tolerances were too tight for carburetors to maintain in production and what was being demanded couldn't be achieved without electronic control of the fuel/air ratios. Mr. Fenn did not want to hear any of it and just forced his way through with the theoretical side of things and won since he had the ear of the Chief Engineer at the time.

Any manager or Chief Engineer at the time who could save the Corporation money with cost savings was a hero, despite the consequences it turned out. Mr Fenn promised the Chief Engineer he could avoid putting on a catalytic converter and meet the Federal emission standards if he went that route. Mr Fenn had a slick tongue and won the day with his BS. Unfortunately for Mr. Fenn, Chrysler developed cars just as he specified and none of them could pass emissions without a catalytic converter anyway so almost every vehicle had to have one anyway that really hurt the predicted cost savings he projected.

Well, we know how that ended up and it was a big factor in Chrysler going bankrupt in 1980. At the time, the Corporation was losing money big time so that too was a problem that pushed adoption of Lean Burn. When the Formals were being developed, the pressure to cut costs hit a real peak in the company and that is why the Formals ended up causing dealerships to revolt because those vehicles had so many problems and buy backs associated with them well before 30 - 40 K miles and dealers didn't have any way to placate the owners otherwise. The cost savings caused components to be unreliable over even the short term.

Well, in 1977 the California Air Resources required that a 2% sample of all new vehicles coming to California be tested for emission compliance right off the assembly line and the data had to be submitted to them by the manufacturers. Unfortunately for Chrysler, CARB actually plucked some of the cars off the assembly lines by random selection and also tested them to ensure compliance. Well, if you can actually believe it, since California had more stringent emission standards than the Federal vehicles sold to all other states, that meant even worse driveability than the Fed vehicles. When CARB tested the 1976 Lean Burn 318-2 bbls they repeatedly passed out when started at cold start conditions prescribed by the test procedures of around 70F. They passed out so frequently during cold start, the vehicles couldn't meet the drive cycle speeds and loads required so CARB deemed them non-compliant and unsafe and demanded a recall of all California 318-2 vehicles.

That is when the crap hit the fan.

Unfortunately for me, I was the guy stationed in California and my task was to fix any problems that came up in terms of emissions (I really had no use for cold weather and rust, so that is why I sought a job with them outside of Michigan) and that is where the required 2% test vehicles had to occur. I loved the company since I joined them in 1969, a time that was their peak in my view and wanted to remain with them.

The first thing I did was to go rent some competitive vehicles and see how they drove and whether they could pass emissions. Well, Ford wasn't much better than Chrysler and even had more crap under the hood than Chrysler did.

GM, however, had vehicles that drove perfectly and had large emission compliance latitude as well. I was amazed and their performance was excellent as well.

So I tore all emission related components off those rental cars with my assigned tech crew and I sent them back to the Holley and Carter reps and had some TQ and Carter carburetors made with identical flow curves and I also had a tech crew assigned to me that worked Detroit, and gave them all the other GM components to test and replicate with the other Chrysler suppliers. I put together a 1976 Cordoba with all of those parts and drove them and got the same results as GM achieved. So I had my crew in Detroit put together a 1976 test car with those same components on them and give it to the Chief Engineer for his usual overnight drive evaluation without a word being said. He came back the next morning and was really angry and asked why the Hell did that car drive perfectly during cold starts and had excellent performance otherwise and wanted to know what the emission levels were on it and of course, they passed with plenty of margin. Then he hit the roof when he was told.

GM helped develop the catalytic converter with all the companies that were a part of that program, whereas Chrysler and Ford had no part in it. So GM knew out the door how to make them run right. Chrysler's proving grounds had the final responsibility for calibrations and they took his rage directly.

Anyway, I got the responsibility to develop all the 4 bbl emission control systems for California going forward with the 1978 models - the chief engineer told me he could not give me the responsibility for anything but the 4 bbls because of legal issues within the company by assigning me with any other carburetor based emission control strategy. So all California vehicles except the six cylinder vehicles got 4 bbls. including the 318 engine. Unfortunately the chief engineer said he could not authorize a new intake manifold for the 318s that I had requested in order to get smaller intake ports to improve air speed velocities into the cylinders at lower speed so they would make more HP due to the $$ involved, so as a result those 318-4 bbls had to use the larger intake manifold of the 360s and were not as snappy off the line as one would expect, but they also had no driveability issues at all and easily passed emissions.

So if you don't want a "Lean Burn" calibration vehicle, then pick the 1978 and later models including the federal ones since they drove fine since by 1978 "Lean Burn" was actually gone from the company and only the plate on the spark control computer said "Lean Burn" even though they weren't. I didn't figure out any of what GM was doing by myself, I just showed the moxie to go out and drive the competition and find out what they knew that Chrysler otherwise and Ford did not. Apparently the guys in the Proving Ground did not. So we were able to really utilize the same approach as GM and make the converter clean up the emissions from running richer calibrations that drove fine going forward.
 
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@saforwardlook, thanks for that GREAT information! For 1975, Chevy advertised that they'd richened the carb, better optimized the ignition (standard HEI), and used the new cat converter to do the bulk of exhaust clean-up work, with standard GM Spec radial tires for better fuel economy. Made sense. The new '75 Impala 350 2bbl the company I was working for back then bought drove flawlessly, no matter what.

Enjoy!
CBODY67
 
I have no idea what all constituted the lean burn system or why certain cars got it while others didn't. I bought a new Charger SE in 76. It came with a 360 2bbl lean burn system. I don't recall having any trouble with it. I didn't drive it much as it was my wife's daily. I do remember it getting around 16 mpg and had pretty good power for what it was with single exhaust. I remember it as a good car until my kid took it over in the mid 80's. It got used up pretty quick then.
 
Interesting. We had a 76 Newport with a 360 2-bbl., did not have lean burn. That was a good car except for rust.
 
First of all, Lean Burn was a mid-year change for the 1976 model year.
So..... You won't see Lean Burn on any early 1976 engine.
 
When the Formals were being developed, the pressure to cut costs hit a real peak in the company and that is why the Formals ended up causing dealerships to revolt because those vehicles had so many problems and buy backs associated with them well before 30 - 40 K miles and dealers didn't have any way to placate the owners otherwise. The cost savings caused components to be unreliable over even the short term.

Exactly when did these problems with the Formals start? Right from their introduction in October 1973 or only later, when catalytic converters and then Lean Burn were introduced?
 
Exactly when did these problems with the Formals start? Right from their introduction in October 1973 or only later, when catalytic converters and then Lean Burn were introduced?
From the beginning in terms of quality - as stated in the text, Chrysler at the time they were designing them knew they really didn't have the money to do the new designs but the market shift to the formal styling theme was solidly in place from all of the big three. It was a very difficult time within the company and the cost cutting efforts were extreme.

The facility where the emission testing lab was located to do the quality audit testing for the California Air Resources Board 2% quality audit tests was on the grounds of Chrysler's Nu Car Prep Facility (correctly spelled) that was in Santa Fe Springs, California which was along side the train rail yards and the feedback from the facility was pretty much panic right from the very start since the new vehicles were in poor shape from the beginning and needed a lot of attention before they could sell them to customers.

The manager of the emission test facility actually liked the formals from the beginning because they were solid feeling, quiet, drove really nicely going down the freeways and many liked their looks and so he told all his friends to buy one but after only 2 year's time his friends really were pissed at him since they had so many problems with them and to save face he had a lot of our technicians working on his friend's cars instead of focusing properly on the lab's needs. The technicians were very vocal about how poor the cars were with many durability problems after only 30-40K miles and the driveability problems with them that appeared from Lean Burn in 1977 models just added to the overall problems with them when it was introduced. The manager's car was an early build 440 formal and it seemingly drove fine to him but when lean burn came into play, it only made things worse. Our tech's were really frustrated with them and it affected my ability to get my job done since I had to do a lot of tech work on the emission side of things myself. I was the one that pulled a lot of the emission components off the GM cars to send them back to Detroit to get the carburetors flow tested and the other components such as EGR valves, distributors and other equipment off and also sent back to Highland Park for analysis as well.

As stated in my text, the dealers were really upset with all the problems they had with them from the beginning and in short order after only 30-40K miles they were also really frustrated. By comparison, the B body vehicles for example were much more solid cars that were designed apparently without all the penny pinching but the driveability problems with lean burn also affected them too as well as the F bodies and all the others.

It also needs to be kept in mind that I am talking about the California experience in terms of driveability since the California emission standards were much more stringent than the Federal ones and so they drove much more poorly with more EGR, less spark timing and so on - and this is where my impressions are coming from. The Federal cars should have driven significantly better especially during cold starts.

The really nice times in the late 60s and early 70s when all the good mopar stuff was out there were excellent, but after about 1974 one could feel the desperation throughout the company as sales fell and customer's and dealers were unhappy. The company went bankrupt circa 1980 as I recall for a reason..................and we all know about the formal's quality problems with water leaks even in the roof, the electrical problems especially with auto temp and so much more. Their value in the used car market isn't very good either and all that nice tufted leather seating didn't hold up very well either and so on.................... Those problems and more are what keeps their values down even today.
 
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First of all, Lean Burn was a mid-year change for the 1976 model year.
So..... You won't see Lean Burn on any early 1976 engine.
You are correct, as the 318-2 bbl cars that were recalled were 1977 models, not 1976. Those were busy times for me so a lot of it is a blur so many years later now...................... I corrected my earlier text. Thanks.
 
@saforwardlook, more great information. Thanks!

As to "cost cutting", it happened everywhere, especially at GM. With GM, by observation, once they got the car approved for production (and "end of assy line production costs"), they then put "the good stuff" into an option package that was easily marketed to dealers to get them to order their vehicles with this stuff on them. THEN, some of these upgrade packages were then advocated to the rental car customers, who needed cars which didn't break or tear up under their customers' use/abuse. Rent car companies need their cars on the road rather than in the shop. If certain brands/models of vehicles can't do that, they don't get re-ordered, no matter the brand or model, but they can seek similar vehicles from other OEMs, to fill their needs in the particular class of vehicle.

Rental cars are actually "paid test drive vehicles". If a happy Chrysler owner might end up with a National Car Rental Impala, that's an unadmitted to "test drive" for them. IF that customer has a good experience with the Impala, also comparing it to the Chrysler product they own, next time they want a new car, they might look for a Impala instead of a Chrysler product, by observation. Or if a Chevy owner might have ended up at Thrifty or Dollar car rental (both of whom had majority ownership by the old Chrysler Corp, meaning that 90% of their total fleet was Chrysler products), that dissatisfied GM owner would get to "extended test drive" a Chrysler LH car. Having a good experience there, he could look for an LH car next time around. Chrysler KNEW this and did promotions via Dollar and Thrifty to get people to drive their cars, even dropping first-production cars at major airports at the first of the model year. To get the cars into circulation so additional data could be gleaned from them, plus customer reactions. GM also did promotions with National, too. PLUS, all of these cars went into the used car auctions when a certain mileage limit was reached. Resale value was important too, just as with a normal customer.

I have always liked Chrysler products for their "engineering to a higher degree of execution" orientation. But as the middle 1970s progressed, with all of the recalls for "flaky things" where no problems had happened previously, I knew something was up. Slant 6 carb base gaskets had never been I issue, but obviously somebody bought some "cheap ones" that didn't hole up well. Which helped give the Volare/Aspen platform the distinction of having more recalls than any other new car. Not good. But these things started in the earlier 1970s, as I later determined from what I came to realize. I had already come to perceive that one of Chrysler's flakier "assets" was a dealer network whose service depts were not as good as they should be, especially in the larger metro markets. Whereas the service dept in our local, long-time dealer, was very good. As was the service dept at Fenner Tubbs in Lubbock, where I took the '66 for some items when I was in college. Back then, it seemed that the average "life" of a Chrysler Corp dealer in DFW was about 3 years, but in the other smaller metro areas of TX, with a more small-town orientation, where customers were more valued, the dealers lasted much longer, even in tough times.

End result, if the build quality was not the best, that's what the customer got. Rattles, wind noise, etc. Magnify that if the dealer did not order things like factory undercoat w/hood pad. So the cars had a junky feel to them. All that would have taken is about a hour with some sockets/wrenches to tighten every visible body attachment bolt/nut and some minor tweaks for weatherstripping, but you had to let the customer complain and a warranty service order was written for it to happen. In theory, how the car rolled off of the transport, with some cleanup and checks, should have been enough. For GM and Ford, it mostly was, but not for Chrysler products, back then.

As I later learned, it's not that the customer had issues with their vehicles, it was how well the dealer took care of them when they did. Smaller dealers tended to do better than the larger-city dealers did, by observation. Many GM owners would give their dealers "a pass" for not being able to fix their car, or the OEM for not putting it together better, but not for Chrysler products, as I observed when I went to work in the Chevrolet parts department in a moderately-size dealer on the fringe of DFW. Some customers came back several times for the same drivability complaint. We did what we could to take care of it, which they understood, and they kept buying cars from us. Plus, our guys knew how to order the vehicles for best value and best service life, which MANY Chevy dealers did not know how to do, by observation. Which is a key thing for any brand of dealer! Dealers tend to be paranoid about "not having what the customer wants", but sometimes those things also end up in the service department with "issues", some of which can be "user problems".

I applaud @saforwardlook for going the extra miles to get Chrysler's drivability issues fixed, back then! Getting things fixed/improved that should have been done long before the vehicles were ever approved for production. And doing things Chrysler Engineering should have done to start with.

Sorry for the length,
CBODY67
 
@saforwardlook, more great information. Thanks!

As to "cost cutting", it happened everywhere, especially at GM. With GM, by observation, once they got the car approved for production (and "end of assy line production costs"), they then put "the good stuff" into an option package that was easily marketed to dealers to get them to order their vehicles with this stuff on them. THEN, some of these upgrade packages were then advocated to the rental car customers, who needed cars which didn't break or tear up under their customers' use/abuse. Rent car companies need their cars on the road rather than in the shop. If certain brands/models of vehicles can't do that, they don't get re-ordered, no matter the brand or model, but they can seek similar vehicles from other OEMs, to fill their needs in the particular class of vehicle.

Rental cars are actually "paid test drive vehicles". If a happy Chrysler owner might end up with a National Car Rental Impala, that's an unadmitted to "test drive" for them. IF that customer has a good experience with the Impala, also comparing it to the Chrysler product they own, next time they want a new car, they might look for a Impala instead of a Chrysler product, by observation. Or if a Chevy owner might have ended up at Thrifty or Dollar car rental (both of whom had majority ownership by the old Chrysler Corp, meaning that 90% of their total fleet was Chrysler products), that dissatisfied GM owner would get to "extended test drive" a Chrysler LH car. Having a good experience there, he could look for an LH car next time around. Chrysler KNEW this and did promotions via Dollar and Thrifty to get people to drive their cars, even dropping first-production cars at major airports at the first of the model year. To get the cars into circulation so additional data could be gleaned from them, plus customer reactions. GM also did promotions with National, too. PLUS, all of these cars went into the used car auctions when a certain mileage limit was reached. Resale value was important too, just as with a normal customer.

I have always liked Chrysler products for their "engineering to a higher degree of execution" orientation. But as the middle 1970s progressed, with all of the recalls for "flaky things" where no problems had happened previously, I knew something was up. Slant 6 carb base gaskets had never been I issue, but obviously somebody bought some "cheap ones" that didn't hole up well. Which helped give the Volare/Aspen platform the distinction of having more recalls than any other new car. Not good. But these things started in the earlier 1970s, as I later determined from what I came to realize. I had already come to perceive that one of Chrysler's flakier "assets" was a dealer network whose service depts were not as good as they should be, especially in the larger metro markets. Whereas the service dept in our local, long-time dealer, was very good. As was the service dept at Fenner Tubbs in Lubbock, where I took the '66 for some items when I was in college. Back then, it seemed that the average "life" of a Chrysler Corp dealer in DFW was about 3 years, but in the other smaller metro areas of TX, with a more small-town orientation, where customers were more valued, the dealers lasted much longer, even in tough times.

End result, if the build quality was not the best, that's what the customer got. Rattles, wind noise, etc. Magnify that if the dealer did not order things like factory undercoat w/hood pad. So the cars had a junky feel to them. All that would have taken is about a hour with some sockets/wrenches to tighten every visible body attachment bolt/nut and some minor tweaks for weatherstripping, but you had to let the customer complain and a warranty service order was written for it to happen. In theory, how the car rolled off of the transport, with some cleanup and checks, should have been enough. For GM and Ford, it mostly was, but not for Chrysler products, back then.

As I later learned, it's not that the customer had issues with their vehicles, it was how well the dealer took care of them when they did. Smaller dealers tended to do better than the larger-city dealers did, by observation. Many GM owners would give their dealers "a pass" for not being able to fix their car, or the OEM for not putting it together better, but not for Chrysler products, as I observed when I went to work in the Chevrolet parts department in a moderately-size dealer on the fringe of DFW. Some customers came back several times for the same drivability complaint. We did what we could to take care of it, which they understood, and they kept buying cars from us. Plus, our guys knew how to order the vehicles for best value and best service life, which MANY Chevy dealers did not know how to do, by observation. Which is a key thing for any brand of dealer! Dealers tend to be paranoid about "not having what the customer wants", but sometimes those things also end up in the service department with "issues", some of which can be "user problems".

I applaud @saforwardlook for going the extra miles to get Chrysler's drivability issues fixed, back then! Getting things fixed/improved that should have been done long before the vehicles were ever approved for production. And doing things Chrysler Engineering should have done to start with.

Sorry for the length,
CBODY67
I believe you might have meant Chrysler dealer when you went there instead of Chevrolet ......and the driveability problems kept coming back (later in your text)?
 
No, at the Chevy dealer no telling how many fuel filters (in the carb) we installed to seek to fix hesitation issues in the later 1970s.

Then there were the "skips" that could never be removed, which actually turned out to be the lock-up torque converter locking up. One customer ended up at the Chrysler dealer one Saturday afternoon when I was there visiting, wanting to trade-in his Caprice Classic as that "skip" could not be removed with multiple tune-ups and such.

As good as GM cars were, they had some issues, too. Problem was that knowing what I did, I could diagnose them for "operating as designed", but our service dept people could not. Just like the "gear hunting" the THM700s did in hilly terrain, at highway speeds, when the pickup had the standard rear axle ratio. Many perceived it was a transmission issue, when it was a rear axle ratio being too high issue. Or the electronic automatics which went into "freewheel" mode while towing (usually in hilly areas, trailer attached) in an effort to cool themselves. No engine braking!!! After several heated conversations by our service manager and GM Tech Assistance, the GM guy finally admitted what was going on and why. Good thing was that these things only lasted for one model year or so, then GM did something to fix them. BTAIM

CBODY67
 
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