maddog_520240
New Member
I am going to start building my 383 out of my 66 Monaco. I have a 440 crank and I am going to bore it .30 over. What kind of cam and carb combo should I use to get good horse power? I also have a edelbrock torker intake.
383 build
- Thread starter maddog_520240
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First off, do you have a steel or iron 440 crank? The steel one can be turned down to fit the 383 block. I do not recommend that you do that to an iron crank, it might well break and scatter your expensive rebuild. There are after market "big bore" crank kits that are steel and might be better suited to your needs. Everything you need for the lower end will come with the kit. As far as the carb setup, it will depend on what cam you are going to run, if you are going to run headers and which heads you are going to use. For most applications something in the 750 CFM range should prove adequate. There are after market AFB and AVS carbs in this range as well as the 750 CFM Holley Dual Feed Dual Pumper, any of which should get the job done unless you are going for a balls out race engine.
Dave
maddog_520240
New Member
steal crank but not sure i want to do as far as heads. I do want to run headers.
Is your 383 the standard or high performance version? The standard will have log style manifolds, the performance version will have arched high performance exhaust manifolds. If you have the arched manifolds, you might be better off staying with them as the headers will not offer much of a flow gain in exchange for lots of blown manifold gaskets.
Dave
maddog_520240
New Member
It’s a standard 383. Do u think I should build it another way to get the horse power? Since I have a stock motor?
Its going to depend a lot on what you have a budget for. Aftermarket heads have a lot better flow parameters, especially at higher RPM. They are expensive though. The purple camshaft is a good performance upgrade that you can run on the street at a more reasonable cost. Headers offer better flow and more horsepower but are a major pain to keep in gaskets. They also tend to have a tinny sound to them, but will offer a good boost in performance over the stock log manifolds. Upgrading to larger exhaust with low restriction mufflers also will help. Going to the aftermarket electronic ignition will also help.
Dave
Without quoting horsepower figures, what is the intended use for the vehicle? Speciality weekend contests? Daily use? Higher performance with good daily reliability and such? Fuel economy important? What rear axle ratio now/later?
The Torker 383 is a good manifold. The reason I bought mine was the more equal mixture distribution over a dual plane, but the dual plane will make more lower/mid-range torque. Using the thick OEM-style carb gasket is important, from my own experience!
The lowered rod ration of the stroker 383 (452) will make cylinder head choic
e less critical than even a 440. When that combination was first used 25 years ago, it was somewhat popular and a way to use mundane 383/400 blocks for higher perf engines. Personally, I like 383s, so that's what I'd build, reusing what you've already got in the engine. Get the porting templates to work the cylinder heads, upgrading the valves to '68 Road Runner or 440/375 sizing in the process.
Cams? LOTS of possibilities! Lunati has some neat ones, as does Comp Cams and others. For the money you would save staying with a 383 size, you can put some of that toward a hydraulic roller set-up, if desired. Roller rockers, if possible. Comp has an app where you can build your engine and see how the power curves might turn out, which can be revealing if you keep track of what the combinations you use are.
There are LOTS of "big name" parts you can use, but using and massaging the factory items can get close to those things at less cost (with a little more time involved on the builder's part). If you like the 'plug and play' orientation, that's fine, too. Giving a serious look at how much the combinations might cost is important, as little additional power can cost a good bit more money to make happen, by observation.
Check out the Engine Masters videos on YouTube for some combinations of parts, or the annual Engine Masters dyno power competition. See what works better together.
In engine specs, to me, it's best to use a cam that will build good power in the useable rpm ranges, but still "rpm" well on the top end. Kind of like a torque-oriented engine that breathes well and has no issues with going to 6000rpm with a wiggle of your right toe. You spend very little time actually using 6000rpm power in street driving, so aiming for that power peak, neglecting the 3000rpm torque doesn't work too well in practice.
Enjoy!
CBODY67
The Torker 383 is a good manifold. The reason I bought mine was the more equal mixture distribution over a dual plane, but the dual plane will make more lower/mid-range torque. Using the thick OEM-style carb gasket is important, from my own experience!
The lowered rod ration of the stroker 383 (452) will make cylinder head choic
e less critical than even a 440. When that combination was first used 25 years ago, it was somewhat popular and a way to use mundane 383/400 blocks for higher perf engines. Personally, I like 383s, so that's what I'd build, reusing what you've already got in the engine. Get the porting templates to work the cylinder heads, upgrading the valves to '68 Road Runner or 440/375 sizing in the process.
Cams? LOTS of possibilities! Lunati has some neat ones, as does Comp Cams and others. For the money you would save staying with a 383 size, you can put some of that toward a hydraulic roller set-up, if desired. Roller rockers, if possible. Comp has an app where you can build your engine and see how the power curves might turn out, which can be revealing if you keep track of what the combinations you use are.
There are LOTS of "big name" parts you can use, but using and massaging the factory items can get close to those things at less cost (with a little more time involved on the builder's part). If you like the 'plug and play' orientation, that's fine, too. Giving a serious look at how much the combinations might cost is important, as little additional power can cost a good bit more money to make happen, by observation.
Check out the Engine Masters videos on YouTube for some combinations of parts, or the annual Engine Masters dyno power competition. See what works better together.
In engine specs, to me, it's best to use a cam that will build good power in the useable rpm ranges, but still "rpm" well on the top end. Kind of like a torque-oriented engine that breathes well and has no issues with going to 6000rpm with a wiggle of your right toe. You spend very little time actually using 6000rpm power in street driving, so aiming for that power peak, neglecting the 3000rpm torque doesn't work too well in practice.
Enjoy!
CBODY67
maddog_520240
New Member
Thanks for the help. I was seeing and looking if someone has some recipes for building this out since there is so much to choose it’s hard to make a decision.
There is "no one size fits all' on a project like this. Start by setting a clear goal as to what level of power you think will adequate for your needs. If you want a 600hp monster, then the stroker kit is the way to go. If something closer to 400hp is more in your range, then you do not need an expensive stroker kit to get there.. Price some of your potential options to get a good idea what the build will cost at various power levels.
Dave
maddog_520240
New Member
I am looking for 400 to 500 hp. I just looking for what I would need to get that out of this motor?
maddog_520240
New Member
need help!!!!
Here is a good article from hotrod magazine about mopar heads. You are going to need to configure your heads to a "Magnum" configuration for starters.
www.hotrod.com/articles/cylinder-heads/
Get an estimate for the machine work and compare it to the cost of shelf ready, after market heads. Hot Rod has numerous other articles on camshafts and building performance engines that are not overly technical. AS C-Body has noted, the heads will be less critical with the stroker option if you go that route, since the high RPM flow patterns tend to cancelled out somewhat by the increased displacement. Google can be your friend in finding out more information. Google "Mopar 383 performance builds" and "383 performance heads"
Dave
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The reason the heads might be a little less important is due to the lowered rod ratio. This means that shorter "dwell time @ TDC", compared to the more optimized rod ration the 383/400 motors have, means a stronger "yank" on what's in the intake port when the piston descends into the bore. The closer the rod ratio is to 1.9, which the 383/400s are, then the "yank" is a smoother one, so having good port flow characteristics is more important.
With respect to horsepower output numbers . . . remember that peak horsepower is "up there" and you drive in the "torque range" normally. That's the response you feel when you accelerate from 30mph, for example. I believe I mentioned that if you build a combination with strong mid-range torque, and good off-idle torque (LOTS at low rpm), then put a good exhaust system under the car, it makes what I termed "a torque motor that rpms well". But that doesn't mean a low-power motor, either, just because I mentioned "torque".
In consideration of your peak power goal, also consider the chassis of the car, too. Chrysler had one of the best suspensions anywhere, back then. They were "road cars" and not specifically "1/4 @ a time" cars, unless modified to be such. One key thing is to upgrade the rear leaf springs to "HD" status, probably matching the number and length of the leaves in those HD factory items. Some good HD shocks, AND, of course, some of the power disc brake kits f & r.
It's one thing to talk "horsepower numbers" at the weekend cruise events, which normally happens when a new motor-build shows up. But if I hear one start up, it sounds raggedity with a too-big carb and too-big cam, I know that it might not scatter kitty litter at a red light. IF it starts up easily, runs smoothly and strong (even with a little lope at idle), won't set off an emissions remote sensing device in the next county (from excessive hydrocarbon emissions!), drops into gear easily, and then drives off nicely, I really don't care how much horsepower the engine has as I can see that it's a good combination of parts and will move the car easily and nicely. When the probable
punch" happens, it just goes and sounds great doing it. And since I need a/c and power brakes, those have to work well too!
As this might be your first engine build, I'd recommend being a little more "mild" than "wild", but not "station wagon mild" per se. But then we had a late member of our Mopar club that had a '65 Belvedere wagon. He'd built a strong 440 for it. He drove it everywhere. Had a faded-ink bag or groceries secured near the tailgate. "Grocery getter" was under that. Later "No bottle, all throttle", well before such things became popular. And as it was their only car, it did go to the grocery store.
Get your feet wet with this one. See how it all works and then do the next one a little bit different and see how that one does. See where your particular tolerance levels might be, too.
CBODY67
With respect to horsepower output numbers . . . remember that peak horsepower is "up there" and you drive in the "torque range" normally. That's the response you feel when you accelerate from 30mph, for example. I believe I mentioned that if you build a combination with strong mid-range torque, and good off-idle torque (LOTS at low rpm), then put a good exhaust system under the car, it makes what I termed "a torque motor that rpms well". But that doesn't mean a low-power motor, either, just because I mentioned "torque".
In consideration of your peak power goal, also consider the chassis of the car, too. Chrysler had one of the best suspensions anywhere, back then. They were "road cars" and not specifically "1/4 @ a time" cars, unless modified to be such. One key thing is to upgrade the rear leaf springs to "HD" status, probably matching the number and length of the leaves in those HD factory items. Some good HD shocks, AND, of course, some of the power disc brake kits f & r.
It's one thing to talk "horsepower numbers" at the weekend cruise events, which normally happens when a new motor-build shows up. But if I hear one start up, it sounds raggedity with a too-big carb and too-big cam, I know that it might not scatter kitty litter at a red light. IF it starts up easily, runs smoothly and strong (even with a little lope at idle), won't set off an emissions remote sensing device in the next county (from excessive hydrocarbon emissions!), drops into gear easily, and then drives off nicely, I really don't care how much horsepower the engine has as I can see that it's a good combination of parts and will move the car easily and nicely. When the probable
punch" happens, it just goes and sounds great doing it. And since I need a/c and power brakes, those have to work well too!
As this might be your first engine build, I'd recommend being a little more "mild" than "wild", but not "station wagon mild" per se. But then we had a late member of our Mopar club that had a '65 Belvedere wagon. He'd built a strong 440 for it. He drove it everywhere. Had a faded-ink bag or groceries secured near the tailgate. "Grocery getter" was under that. Later "No bottle, all throttle", well before such things became popular. And as it was their only car, it did go to the grocery store.
Get your feet wet with this one. See how it all works and then do the next one a little bit different and see how that one does. See where your particular tolerance levels might be, too.
CBODY67
PontiacJim
Member
How about we go directly to Mopar and get their view on building a street/strip engine. There might be something here of use.
It's been a while since I've seen that page! Guts, Chrome, Settings . . . Seems like the Purple Shaft "214" cam was the old Street Hemi cam for normal B/RB engines? I believe those ET recommendations are for "B" body cars? Might need a vintage Direct Connection Race Manual (about 1000+pages) and a vintage Direct Connection catalog to decipher the part numbers.
CBODY67
CBODY67
www.summitracing.com has a wide variety of camshafts and other gear for mild to balls out builds. If you contact their tech support, they can set you up with pretty much anything from 400 to 600hp for you 383. Cleaned up, magnum configured heads, a good flat tappet cam, light weight push rods and rockers and high performance manifolds and exhaust and your intake with a 750 cfm carb with a good after market ignition system will get you to something in the 400 to 425 horsepower range without too much trouble. Spend your money on align boring the block and a good balance job on the lower end. A high volume oil pump and a 6 quart pan are also a good investment, just remember to always keep the crank case full with a high volume pump!
Remember that your car probably has power brakes, so do not go too crazy with your cam choice as you still need 10"-12" of vacuum to be able to stop the darn thing.
Dave
maddog_520240
New Member
Thank you guys that’s really helped
PontiacJim
Member
Ya, it seems some want to re-invent the wheel or throw new technology around like its the best thing since apple pie and disregard the path of the past when adding horsepower and wringing out even more was easily found in the assorted hot rod magazines of the day. It seems the modern day dyno is the voice of authority when the past was ruled by actual 1/4 mile and 0-60 mph times and what it took to achieve those real life numbers. All you have to do is go back in time with the magazines and catalogs of the past as related to your car/build and you can pick up a ton of info that may even provide a build you will be satisfied with and have an idea of its performance potential - without guessing or relying on much of the braggadocious BS thrown about on the internet.
Pulled another magazine covering the Mopar parts build for the 440 starting with Phase 1, 13 1/2 second, 300-350HP, 3,800 bracket car with good street tires and stock suspension and ending with Phase 5, 9.90 second, 603HP, 3,000 lb race car with all-out suspension/drivetrain & 14" slicks. Of course as the HP goes up, 1/4 mile times drop, and so does the car weight as it approaches the race only stage. And looking at all the required high end parts and machine work, so do the $$$ also go up.
There is no mention of rear gearing or transmission choices, but seeing this was aimed at bracket racing, I don't think 2.78 gearing was in mind. LOL You would probably be looking at 3.90 - 4.11 for gearing.
In my opinion, Phase 2 would be my choice and very doable - 12 second bracket car, 406HP, 3,800 lbs.
The 440 had 11:1 compression, and used Bill Miller aluminum rods, cast crank. Aluminum rods are not the choice for the street, but I would bet you can get some good forged light weight rods and hang light weight pistons that will save a lot of weight.
Carb used is a 780 Holley. Adjustable pushrods were used in all tests so they could be adjusted according to cam lift throughout the tests. Other goodies would be as any build, better oil pump, hardened oil pump shaft, quality gaskets, matching valve springs, etc..
Phase 1 cam used was .455" lift, 272 degrees advertised duration, 112 degree centerline, and 48 degrees overlap (which is not much at all). The dyno specs were 453 ft lbs torque flat at 3,000 - 3,250 RPM's & 350HP peaked at 4750 RPM. Going to a 9:1 compression was figured to lose 25HP from the combo.
Phase 2 went with a cam with .474" lift, 280 degrees advertised duration, 110 degree centerline, 60 degrees overlap (should sound nice at idle with the larger overlap). Added were a Holley Street Dominator intake, 1 3/4" headers w/3" collectors, "Chrome Box" ignition. Max torque was 478 ft lbs @ 4,500 RPM's and max HP was 406 @ 5,000 RPM's.
Looking at all the numbers, I think Phase 2 would put you in the 13 second zone with 9:1 compression and the right gearing/transmission as long as you can get traction. This is where cubic inches equates to torque and torque is what moves the car. Note you do not need the high RPM's to do this, so it is easier on your engine.
70bigblockdodge
Old Man with a Hat
Got details on this app?
Everything I see out there either wants a VE or head flow cfm
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