70 Dodge C body research help please

[sdweatherman]

Going along with the "how many are left thought" - I have only been doing the sunroof registry thing for about 4 years. In that time I have dug up over 250 examples of the early 69-72 power sunroof cars (with the help of several other mopar forum community members). The survival rate on these cars has generally been anywhere from 10 to 15 percent. I am sure there are many more cars out there hiding away - so those percentages may nudge up a few more percents, but probably remain at or below 20%.
Scott.

 

[Georg/BBTR]

Thanks everybody. I just LOVE nerd knowledge!

 

[69CoronetRT]

Welll.....good. Here's more Nerd Knowledge....

Some new documents, including the dates of introduction of FT8 Walnut and and a walnut vinyl roof V1J for all Fury models, have been posted on Hamtramck Historical. The 1970 Hamtramck Registry - 1970 Plymouth Dealership Letters - Teletypes

These documents help explain the "why" of the original question. Here's the underlying belief as to the reason there are no DE VINned cars for 1970 yet DE cars are accounted for in production totals.

When the Barracuda Coupe was released, the VIN code BH21 was automatically converted by the A93 package to BH23 with the associated A93 package. Yet, the BH21 package totals were tracked separately.

This was why, and it's looking like it was true, that when the A71 Polara Special package code and associated DE VIN was ordered, the cars were actually VINned as DM Polara Customs but the DE was tracked separately. The same concept and administration of the BH21 cars applied to DE cars.

WHY does all this matter? Because if you look at DM total production figures by only the DM VIN and not account for the number of A71 cars within that total, it will over inflate the total number of true DM Polara Customs produced.

If you look at published DE production totals and not know that the cars were never VINned as DE cars but as DM cars, you will look forever for a 1970 DE VIN or fender tag and never find one.

 

[polara71]

My head is spinning ......... which is why I only stick with one particular car and I even lose half of that within inner space

 

[CBODY67]

The "Polara Speial" would have NOT been a "Spring Special", but a slightly de-contented model to achieve some pricing purpose for hopefully better sales. The "Spring Specials" were typically equipment packages (Get a Free Automatic Transmission or Air Conditioning at No Charge) or new Spring Colors, too. As these were options special groupings, NOTHING on the VIN as to particular model designation. Kind of like the Basic Equipment Group with something at a decreased price.

The Polara "Special" noted above would have had a less expensive seat fabric and/or door trim. Possibly some options were restricted on this model so dealers would not take the less expensive car and load it up with options such that the intent of the vehicle was thwarted. Possibly no 4bbl engines, either?

All Chrysler divisions had some sort of Spring Special option packages. As the woodgrain on Newport convertibles and such, in '68(?).

In Chrysler VIN nomemclature, "E" is "Economy". My '67 Newport 2-dr ht is "CE", but our '66 Newport Town Sedan is "CL".

CBODY67

 

[CBODY67]

My DH43N0D came with a 383 4bbl option. It was produced in March, 1970 (appropriate for my high school graduation, to receive it in May). The ONE sales brochure I've found specifically for 1970 Dodge Monacos lists the 383 2bbl and 440 as options, as does the Owner's Manual. Possibly an "added option" for the Spring selling season? Whether this Code N engine is the same as in a B-body, not sure, but they sound the same when standing at the rear of the car, between the exh pipes. Sounds the same as the TX DPS cars (with 383 4bbls) and a '76 Cordoba 400HO. Regardless of which Code N it might be, at part throttle, the speedometer heads for the triple digits without hesitation. When we first changed the trans fluid, we discovered it had the "small" torque converter for a higher stall speed.

CBODY67

 

[polara71]

I have a N code in my 70 convertible . An amazing engine, very impressive

 

[ayilar]

My DH43N0D came with a 383 4bbl option. (...) Possibly an "added option" for the Spring selling season?

I have a N code in my 70 convertible.

Thanks to Dave, I am aware of 5 surviving N-code Polara ragtops. I have production dates for 3 of them: to your point, the earliest is Dec. 15, 1969 (Dave has the date for his own and probably also Don's old car, but I don't).

PS: There is a sixth car with a 4-barrel 383 (violet metallic, now in Sweden; originally EB3 then darker blue), but it is not an N-code car.

 

[polara71]

Thanks to Dave, I am aware of 5 surviving N-code Polara ragtops. I have production dates for 3 of them: to your point, the earliest is Dec. 15, 1969 (Dave has the date for his own and probably also Don's old car, but I don't).

PS: There is a sixth car with a 4-barrel 383 (violet metallic, now in Sweden; originally EB3 then darker blue), but it is not an N-code car.

So it's an L with the 4 barrel added ....

FYI one of those 5 is in a junkyard in Montana..it is not surviving.

 

[ayilar]

So it's an L with the 4 barrel added ....

FYI one of those 5 is in a junkyard in Montana..it is not surviving.

The only Banana Yellow one, according to your registry. Did you ever post photos of that one?

 

[polara71]

Two were supposed to have been built, that was one of them .
Yes, plenty of times

 

[ayilar]

The Canadian market Monaco used the Polara Custom side trim for the sedans and hardtops. Monaco wagons used US Monaco trim as did the Monaco 500.
NO DODGE MONACO CONVERTIBLES FOR 1970 !!!
(...)
The Dodge Monaco 500 Brougham was actually a trim package on the Monaco 500, although Chrysler Canada marketed it as a separate series.

@Bill Watson -- Thank you for this info!

--> One question: you mentioned that the Canadian Monaco 500 used the same trim as the US model. Were there any 500 badges on the US car? I have seen one Monaco 500 with "500" badges and several without. All those without the "500" emblem that I know of had been repainted at some stage in their lives, however.

Pictures of the Canadian Monaco 500 sub-models can be found on Fuselage.de here.

I am including below the photos of a TX9 car, claimed to have original paint, with the badges. The photos are from when the car sold in August 2015. I believe this car is a US model, as there is no "Monaco" script on the front fenders (unlike the Canadian cars).

It'd be great to get your thoughts!

--> Bonus question: I also see a badge on the roof's sail panels, but cannot read it. I suspect this could be a "Brougham" tag, but this is purely a guess. Maybe it simply spells "Monaco" and I can't decipher it. @dh23t seems to have had the same badge on the roof of his 1970 Monaco 500, so it'd be great if he could chime in too!

 

[Mr C]

I find this kind of stuff fascinating. Hopefully similar rigour will be applied to Formals one day.

 

[Bill Watson]

@Bill Watson -- Thank you for this info!

--> One question: you mentioned that the Canadian Monaco 500 used the same trim as the US model. Were there any 500 badges on the US car? I have seen one Monaco 500 with "500" badges and several without. All those without the "500" emblem that I know of had been repainted at some stage in their lives, however.

Pictures of the Canadian Monaco 500 sub-models can be found on Fuselage.de here.

I am including below the photos of a TX9 car, claimed to have original paint, with the badges. The photos are from when the car sold in August 2015. I believe this car is a US model, as there is no "Monaco" script on the front fenders (unlike the Canadian cars).

It'd be great to get your thoughts!

--> Bonus question: I also see a badge on the roof's sail panels, but cannot read it. I suspect this could be a "Brougham" tag, but this is purely a guess. Maybe it simply spells "Monaco" and I can't decipher it. @dh23t seems to have had the same badge on the roof of his 1970 Monaco 500, so it'd be great if he could chime in too!

The name "Monaco" is on the lower side trim ahead of the rear wheel. Same spot as on the Canadian Monaco 500 models. You really have to look close.

The black car is a US Monaco 500, and thus the name Brougham would not appear on the car. In the US the 500 was a bucket seat package available only on Monaco 2 dr hardtops, while the Brougham package was available on Monaco sedans and 4 dr hardtops.

Not to confuse with the US 500 with the Canadian 500 which had "Monaco 500" on the front fenders, nothing on the lower trim ahead of the rear wheels, a "500" emblem on the rear just below the "Monaco" nameplate (as on the black US "Monaco 500") and the Dodge crest on the C pillar. The Canadian Monaco 500 was a separate series (FDP-) from the Monaco (FDH-), and came in sedan, 2dr hardtop and 4 dr hardtop. The Canadian Brougham package was available on the three Canadian Monaco 500 models and added a "Brougham" nameplate to the C pillar.

 

[ayilar]

Bill (if I may -- we have not yet met), thanks a lot for the helpful and rapid reply!

I do see the Monaco script ahead of the rear wheels. My bad on the Brougham option -- not on US coupes, then.

--> That still leaves the question open as to what the tag (for lack of a better word) on the sail panel is.

--> My other question is why we see the "500" tag on the black car, but not on others. Was it added on the black car, or did it somehow disappear from the others? Two examples are @dh23t's here (gator top, showing the same sail panel tag as there black car but no "500" monikers that I can see on the trunk or aft of the front wheels) and @My70monaco's here (painted top; same thing).

Thoughts?

 

[CBODY67]

I was just looking at the Hamtramck Historical website. Notably in the Advance Information and Order Info sections pertaining to 1970 Dodge Full-Size cars. No mention of Canadian-only Monaco 500s per se, BUT the A75 Monaco 500 option as a 2-dr companion option group A76 Monaco Brougham option, it seems. A75 only on 2dr hardtops and A76 only on 4-doors.

The other tidbit I noticed is that the 440/350 motor is the only 440 listed, but it can also have the N41 Dual Exhaust option.

So, with no Canadian product designation (in this documentation), how did the Russet Metallic '70 Monaco, the highly-optioned one that was for sale and then for sale disassembled, with factory buckets, miss out on the "500" emblems? The plot thickens?

CBODY67

 

[Bill Watson]

Those "500" tags are small and the stickemon style doesn't always stay stuck on. I own a 1988 Plymouth Caravelle Salon (Gran Fury in the US) and although the "Caravelle" sticker is still there on the right rear of the car, the "Plymouth" on the left is long gone.

Now, if car still has the body tag on the rad support or drivers inner fender, and it may be possible to solve the problem. The tag has a number of sale codes for various options on the car, including the ones are talking about.

If there is a sales code A75 on the tag, it has the "Monaco 500 Ornamention Group" package, which includes bucket seats, centre front cushion/armest or console, trunk dress up, rear seat sound insulation pad and "500" nameplates. If you have access to under the hood we could be able to solve the mystery.

Code A76 for the "Brougham Package" which includes 50/50 split cloth & vinyl bench seat with individual arm rests and reclining seat back, trunk dress up, rear seat sound insulation pad, vinyl roof and "Brougham" nameplates on C-pillar on Monaco models.

Looking at the photos of the black Monaco 500, it looks like it has bucket seats, which leads one to believe the car is a "500".

 

[CBODY67]

From the 1970 Dodge Polara/Monaco order guide section on interiors.

 

[CBODY67]

Just went back and enlarged the last "assembled car" photos of the '70 Monaco bucket seat car. Door trim has "Monaco" on it as a normal Monaco would. No "500" on them or evidence of the "500" emblems on the front fender. It does have the console, though.

CBODY67

 

[ayilar]

@Bill Watson and @CBODY67 : Thank you both -- the sales materials seal the deal. Now the puzzle is the 500 on the trunk of the black car -- not listed as part of the A75 package?

Back to the recently dismembered FK5 car mentioned by @CBODY67:

how did the Russet Metallic '70 Monaco, the highly-optioned one that was for sale and then for sale disassembled, with factory buckets, miss out on the "500" emblems? The plot thickens?

Just went back and enlarged the last "assembled car" photos of the '70 Monaco bucket seat car. Door trim has "Monaco" on it as a normal Monaco would. No "500" on them or evidence of the "500" emblems on the front fender. It does have the console, though.CBODY67

If we're talking about the same car (DH23T0D100359) then that poor Monaco was characterized by its then-owner (@Pentastarguy) in 2014 as having had a low quality repaint (from FK5 to some russet hue). That car had the A75 code, as per the tag, but at the time had no trim left on the sides -- so no 500 moniker aft of the front fenders -- and no "500" moniker next to the "Monaco" script on the trunk.

Bottom line, I am starting to think, as Bill suggested, that the emblems have fallen off on a number of cars. It'd be great to see period photos or literature of the US cars to be sure.

PS: anyone know of sources for spare emblems?