73 Monaco wagon

[Beep Beep Dave]

I just followed the instructions that came with the carb....it looked good and ran nice.

Dave

 

[saforwardlook]

Started car tonight. Ran but would run slower and slower at idle until engine died. As long as I kept the gas pedal down about half it would run, but if I let off the gas it died. Eventually it died and would not restart. Any ideas?

The Holley 2 bbs. develop warped air horns because the air cleaner hold down rod doesn't fasten into the base, but rather just fastens into the air horn. So when folks tighten the air cleaners down and go through heat cycles the air horns slowly but surely warp, and then the vacuum is lost that pulls the fuel out of the metering nozzles. But Autoline rebuildiers that Rock Auto uses know about this and they have a technique to press the air horns flat again and surface them so the problem is fixed. I haven't had any problems with the Autoline rebuilds from Rock Auto and suggest you invest in one of them. Your problem is typical of that problem along with substantial stumbles and surging on light accels, if it even keeps running. When you put one on though, do not tighten the air cleaner down any more than absolutely necessary to prevent a recurrence.

 

[tbm3fan]

The Holley 2 bbs. develop warped air horns because the air cleaner hold down rod doesn't fasten into the base, but rather just fastens into the air horn. So when folks tighten the air cleaners down and go through heat cycles the air horns slowly but surely warp, and then the vacuum is lost that pulls the fuel out of the metering nozzles. But Autoline rebuildiers that Rock Auto uses know about this and they have a technique to press the air horns flat again and surface them so the problem is fixed. I haven't had any problems with the Autoline rebuilds from Rock Auto and suggest you invest in one of them. Your problem is typical of that problem along with substantial stumbles and surging on light accels, if it even keeps running. When you put one on though, do not tighten the air cleaner down any more than absolutely necessary to prevent a recurrence.

So that explains it. I always had issues with my Holley 2 bbl. Never stopped running but the idle would be up and down making the timing impossible. Tried another and it wasn't much better. Got fed up and bought an adapter to install a Motorcraft 2150 and the engine ran great. Quick to start, not bog on acceleration, steady idle and easy to now time.

 

[azblackhemi]

So that's interesting. I didn't realize those were hubcaps! Thought they were actual wheels, from the first photos. The style is nice. How much do you want for them? Is it possible to send them off some place to get refinished? I have to keep things in perspective on my end... am trying to focus my budget on "roadworthiness" items right now, frankly.

$50 for the set plus shipping. They need some work but will clean up pretty good. For a driver I'd just redo the black and use them.

 

[GJS]

Oh. I pressure washed the years of 'dried greasy Oregon gray loam' off the underside. There was plenty of blue paint still. Be a lot "pleasanter" to work on now. It is strange, as an eastern US person, to see an unrestored car of this vintage with so little rust.

Brother, I feel you. I got my 68 out of a garage in Vancouver so she was obviously clean but anything I worked on in the interim was really crusty. When I got my 67 up from texas, the heavens parted ... nuts spun off as if the thing was asking me to work on it. God bless saltless areas.

 

[GJS]

Dealing with two problems.
1) Car starts, then gradually idles slower and slower until engine quits. This is my bigger concern. I am wondering if a dirty fuel filter may be causing a decrease in fuel pressure.
2) power steering pump losing fluid. Seepage appears to be coming out of top of steering box itself, where there is what appears to be a threaded round cap/insert. Is there a rubber or other seal that goes bad?

1.. your needle seat valve might be sticking open allowing the carb to flood. The opening of the throttle would be letting more air in to combine with the extra fuel, leaning out the mixture to keep it going. Don't know what your carb is so depending on your metering set up is there may be something stuck in that as well.
2... would love to know more about this, I believe I have the same issue in my 67

 

[MonacoBlue]

1.. your needle seat valve might be sticking open allowing the carb to flood. The opening of the throttle would be letting more air in to combine with the extra fuel, leaning out the mixture to keep it going. Don't know what your carb is so depending on your metering set up is there may be something stuck in that as well.
2... would love to know more about this, I believe I have the same issue in my 67

1. Sounds like a possibility, but how to verify? I am not exactly sure which component you are talking about. Is that the hanging triangle shaped part with a pointed end? I have a Holley 2 Barrel. I think it is a 2210. I rebuilt it and was disappointed by the limited selection of parts in the rebuild kit. Another poster says it may be the air horn (air cleaner housing?), which I would also consider a possibility because the threaded hold down/wing nut assy is not threaded to the carb anymore? When the car was delivered I found that threaded rod on the floor by the front seat. Any easy check on that as a potential root cause would be set a little stabilizing weight on top of the housing assembly and see if it keeps a good enough seal to keep it idling ok. I should also check for unevenness in the seal between cleaner housing and carb.
2. Yes if you figure it out let me know. My power steering pump won't hold fluid and now it is rattly as the engine runs. I suspect the threaded part on the box needs a new seal at a minimum, maybe that would fix it? Or maybe that is wishful thinking. It can't imagine "it's just loose", but it wouldn't hurt to check, but it looks like it takes a special tool to tighten? Could be a symptom of something worse?

 

[MonacoBlue]

The Holley 2 bbs. develop warped air horns because the air cleaner hold down rod doesn't fasten into the base, but rather just fastens into the air horn. So when folks tighten the air cleaners down and go through heat cycles the air horns slowly but surely warp, and then the vacuum is lost that pulls the fuel out of the metering nozzles. But Autoline rebuildiers that Rock Auto uses know about this and they have a technique to press the air horns flat again and surface them so the problem is fixed. I haven't had any problems with the Autoline rebuilds from Rock Auto and suggest you invest in one of them. Your problem is typical of that problem along with substantial stumbles and surging on light accels, if it even keeps running. When you put one on though, do not tighten the air cleaner down any more than absolutely necessary to prevent a recurrence.

This is a definite possibility. I will have to check it. I haven't figured out the threaded Hold down, it was laying in the floor by the front seat, it doesn't appear to thread into the carb? What does it do to keep from letting the air cleaner cover come off? Right now the wing nut goes on and it just spins the threaddd rod. Useless. Maybe what I found in the front seat was not the right item? Thank you for taking the time to share some knowledge, this may do the trick.

 

[MonacoBlue]

The Holley 2 bbs. develop warped air horns because the air cleaner hold down rod doesn't fasten into the base, but rather just fastens into the air horn. So when folks tighten the air cleaners down and go through heat cycles the air horns slowly but surely warp, and then the vacuum is lost that pulls the fuel out of the metering nozzles. But Autoline rebuildiers that Rock Auto uses know about this and they have a technique to press the air horns flat again and surface them so the problem is fixed. I haven't had any problems with the Autoline rebuilds from Rock Auto and suggest you invest in one of them. Your problem is typical of that problem along with substantial stumbles and surging on light accels, if it even keeps running. When you put one on though, do not tighten the air cleaner down any more than absolutely necessary to prevent a recurrence.

I think I just figured out what "air horn" is - the inlet of the carb, or round surface the cleaner sits on. Understand. Sorry, most of my adulthood has been around fuel injected stuff!

 

[MonacoBlue]

The Holley 2 bbs. develop warped air horns because the air cleaner hold down rod doesn't fasten into the base, but rather just fastens into the air horn. So when folks tighten the air cleaners down and go through heat cycles the air horns slowly but surely warp, and then the vacuum is lost that pulls the fuel out of the metering nozzles. But Autoline rebuildiers that Rock Auto uses know about this and they have a technique to press the air horns flat again and surface them so the problem is fixed. I haven't had any problems with the Autoline rebuilds from Rock Auto and suggest you invest in one of them. Your problem is typical of that problem along with substantial stumbles and surging on light accels, if it even keeps running. When you put one on though, do not tighten the air cleaner down any more than absolutely necessary to prevent a recurrence.

I just followed the instructions that came with the carb....it looked good and ran nice.

Dave

Looks like a Rochester and not a Holley, for sale on Autoline/Rock Auto for my 73. No fitment issues? No extra vacuum lines or linkages that didn't quite line up?

 

[Beep Beep Dave]

Take a picture of your carb please.

Dave

 

[MonacoBlue]

Take a picture of your carb please.

Dave

 

[GJS]

1. Sounds like a possibility, but how to verify? I am not exactly sure which component you are talking about. Is that the hanging triangle shaped part with a pointed end? I have a Holley 2 Barrel. I think it is a 2210. I rebuilt it and was disappointed by the limited selection of parts in the rebuild kit. Another poster says it may be the air horn (air cleaner housing?), which I would also consider a possibility because the threaded hold down/wing nut assy is not threaded to the carb anymore? When the car was delivered I found that threaded rod on the floor by the front seat. Any easy check on that as a potential root cause would be set a little stabilizing weight on top of the housing assembly and see if it keeps a good enough seal to keep it idling ok. I should also check for unevenness in the seal between cleaner housing and carb.
2. Yes if you figure it out let me know. My power steering pump won't hold fluid and now it is rattly as the engine runs. I suspect the threaded part on the box needs a new seal at a minimum, maybe that would fix it? Or maybe that is wishful thinking. It can't imagine "it's just loose", but it wouldn't hurt to check, but it looks like it takes a special tool to tighten? Could be a symptom of something worse?

Needle seat valve would be located in your float bowl. It's actuated by the float which, when the fuel level in the bowl hits a certain point, the float closes off the needle valve .. on second thought tho, this shouldn't be causing the lean condition on idle.... rather, I'd think it would simply piss fuel all over your manifold esp with that particular carbs tendency to warp.

On second look, the underside of your choke plate is pretty black. If she's had any good pops through the carb, it's a decent chance that your power valve is toast .. I don't think those come with many ... or any .. kits.

For my part, I'd ditch it and get a new carb. .. I say that as I'm rebuilding my Carter 4bbl for my monaco BUT I've had way better luck building Carters than I have Holleys or Rochesters.

 

[saforwardlook]

Your carb is obviously a Holly 2 bbl (2210). The air horn is the top piece of the carburetor that the hold down threaded rod for the air cleaner attaches to. So when the air cleaner is in place and you tighten down the wing nut on the top of the air cleaner housing, it pulls upward on the air horn (top piece of the carburetor). Over time and heat cycles, it just warps! You can fool around with that carburetor all you want, rebuild it 10 times, reset everything 10 times and so on. But it will not work right 9 times out of 10 for the reason I gave you. I have been through this countless times, but go ahead and pursue this other stuff. Or just go buy the rebuilt carb from Autoline that Rock Auto sells. Or ask Rock Auto tech assistance to give you the number to Autoline techs and they will explain this issue to you and then maybe you will believe me. Good luck.

By the way, those Holley 2210s and even the 4 bbl 4160s may not be very durable due to cheap castings that warp on both of them over time/heat cycles, but when new, they run generally significantly better than the Carter AVS 4 bbls at least. Holley's generally have accelerator pump systems that deliver off the line response that the Carter's don't match. The pump shot on the Holleys plus the seamless phase in of the off idle fuel metering is just much stronger with the Holleys. Those 2210s are also sweet when running right. Idle great, and perform really well - when they aren't warped. They are worth keeping. Just don't tighten down the air cleaner very much.

 

[Beep Beep Dave]

This is the one I got for my car:
More Information for AUTOLINE C7082

The first pic is it out of the box, next the new one and finally the original old one.

Thanks for all the great tips on here Steve. I love learning about these things so I appreciate you sharing your knowledge!

Dave

 

[MonacoBlue]

Here is the side view. The strange thing is that the hose from the carbon canister goes nowhere. Can't figure out where it was supposed to connect.

 

[MonacoBlue]

Your carb is obviously a Holly 2 bbl (2210). The air horn is the top piece of the carburetor that the hold down threaded rod for the air cleaner attaches to. So when the air cleaner is in place and you tighten down the wing nut on the top of the air cleaner housing, it pulls upward on the air horn (top piece of the carburetor). Over time and heat cycles, it just warps! You can fool around with that carburetor all you want, rebuild it 10 times, reset everything 10 times and so on. But it will not work right 9 times out of 10 for the reason I gave you. I have been through this countless times, but go ahead and pursue this other stuff. Or just go buy the rebuilt carb from Autoline that Rock Auto sells. Or ask Rock Auto tech assistance to give you the number to Autoline techs and they will explain this issue to you and then maybe you will believe me. Good luck.

Hey. Not calling in to question your technical expertise. Yes, it certainly is a Holley. The fact that I went out and investigated/photo'd the air horn should be an indication that I took your guidance to heart. I just want to understand for myself the condition of my carburetor before I go buying parts. Part of the fun is gaining understanding - positively identifying problem conditions and fixing them. I appreciate your input and will probably end up buying a Rock Auto carb. I certainly want to learn from other people's experience. Thanks for the advice. There is a wealth of that on here and it has already saved me time and money.

The strange thing is that the threaded rod piece does not thread snugly into the carb, either way I flip it. Odd.

 

[MonacoBlue]

I just followed the instructions that came with the carb....it looked good and ran nice.

Dave

Your carb is obviously a Holly 2 bbl (2210). The air horn is the top piece of the carburetor that the hold down threaded rod for the air cleaner attaches to. So when the air cleaner is in place and you tighten down the wing nut on the top of the air cleaner housing, it pulls upward on the air horn (top piece of the carburetor). Over time and heat cycles, it just warps! You can fool around with that carburetor all you want, rebuild it 10 times, reset everything 10 times and so on. But it will not work right 9 times out of 10 for the reason I gave you. I have been through this countless times, but go ahead and pursue this other stuff. Or just go buy the rebuilt carb from Autoline that Rock Auto sells. Or ask Rock Auto tech assistance to give you the number to Autoline techs and they will explain this issue to you and then maybe you will believe me. Good luck.

By the way, those Holley 2210s and even the 4 bbl 4160s may not be very durable due to cheap castings that warp on both of them over time/heat cycles, but when new, they run generally significantly better than the Carter AVS 4 bbls at least. Holley's generally have accelerator pump systems that deliver off the line response that the Carter's don't match. The pump shot on the Holleys plus the seamless phase in of the off idle fuel metering is just much stronger with the Holleys. Those 2210s are also sweet when running right. Idle great, and perform really well - when they aren't warped. They are worth keeping. Just don't tighten down the air cleaner very much.

Thanks for the additional knowledge. The Autolines on Rock Auto's site appear to be Rochesters and have a large tube on the front that my Holley does not have. That may not be an issue at all if it goes to the carbon canister, because currently that line leads nowhere from the canister under the hood. My PVC valve hose (similar/large size) goes from the left bank to the back of the carb, btw, which you probably already know.

Is the Autoline air horn as equally susceptible to warping over time as the Holley, or is it superior? I expect you are sharing based on observation of warpage from cars that have experienced 10-40 years of useful life and thousands of thermal cycles (just like mine!), and therefore a new Autoline would probably be just fine for the next 10 years of hobbyist use on a car that would probably get started once per month, on average.

Thank you for your patience in answering my questions.

Longer term I think I would like to put in a 4bbl and dual exhaust, assuming I can do that (by law). But first I want to just get it running smoothly.

PS when I soaked and rebuilt the Holley a couple months ago and re-attached it to the engine it gave me quick throttle response that sounded REALLY good. Very responsive. Some of my photos are from before it was soaked.

 

[MonacoBlue]

Needle seat valve would be located in your float bowl. It's actuated by the float which, when the fuel level in the bowl hits a certain point, the float closes off the needle valve .. on second thought tho, this shouldn't be causing the lean condition on idle.... rather, I'd think it would simply piss fuel all over your manifold esp with that particular carbs tendency to warp.

On second look, the underside of your choke plate is pretty black. If she's had any good pops through the carb, it's a decent chance that your power valve is toast .. I don't think those come with many ... or any .. kits.

For my part, I'd ditch it and get a new carb. .. I say that as I'm rebuilding my Carter 4bbl for my monaco BUT I've had way better luck building Carters than I have Holleys or Rochesters.

Some of the photos are from prior to me soaking it and rebuilding it. Can you tell me what a power valve is? I'll google it for Holley carbs. Thanks

 

[saforwardlook]

View attachment 129453


Thanks for the additional knowledge. The Autolines on Rock Auto's site appear to be Rochesters and have a large tube on the front that my Holley does not have. That may not be an issue at all if it goes to the carbon canister, because currently that line leads nowhere from the canister under the hood. My PVC valve hose (similar/large size) goes from the left bank to the back of the carb, btw, which you probably already know.

Is the Autoline air horn as equally susceptible to warping over time as the Holley, or is it superior? I expect you are sharing based on observation of warpage from cars that have experienced 10-40 years of useful life and thousands of thermal cycles (just like mine!), and therefore a new Autoline would probably be just fine for the next 10 years of hobbyist use on a car that would probably get started once per month, on average.

Thank you for your patience in answering my questions.

Longer term I think I would like to put in a 4bbl and dual exhaust, assuming I can do that (by law). But first I want to just get it running smoothly.

PS when I soaked and rebuilt the Holley a couple months ago and re-attached it to the engine it gave me quick throttle response that sounded REALLY good. Very responsive. Some of my photos are from before it was soaked.

If you wagon has a canister under hood, it should have a carburetor with a bowl vent on it as well (front, pass side). Bowl vents help provide better hot starts.

The Autoline carburetor uses the same air horn that is from whatever core that they used to rebuild. They just press the airhorn flat and maybe surface it a little as well. So the problem could recur if you tighten the air cleaner too much - only tighten it as little as you can get away with.