Cartel
Active Member
The way this sounds is I should just give up now
DLC lifters? nitride the cam?
Seriously if they cant make a relible product they should quit making them all together
Am I doomed ? Is $600cad not enough for a cam and lifter set?
Is my new build doomed because I bought a flat tappet?
- Thread starter Cartel
- Start date
The way this sounds is I should just give up now
DLC lifters? nitride the cam?
Seriously if they cant make a relible product they should quit making them all together
Am I doomed ? Is $600cad not enough for a cam and lifter set?
Cartel
Active Member
I'm thinking of using the 2bbl springs for the first 300-400 miles then put on the 911 springs
and break in oil like the driven brand.
should that be enough?
and break in oil like the driven brand.
should that be enough?
commando1
Old Man with a Hat
I admire your concern over all things large and small but you're seriously overthinking this .
You can check the taper on the cam lobes with a dial caliper and check the base of the lifters for crown with a pocket ruler. If you see something suspect, don't use it. And like @Cartel mentioned, easy on the springs during break in and watch the video he posted. I like to ball hone the lifter bores to make sure the lifters spin freely. Easy to do when machining the block before clean up and assembly. If re installing a cam in the car, lube everything up real good and turn the engine over by hand a few times to make sure the lifters spin in their bores.
Also use a good quality break in oil like Brad Penn/ Penn Grade or Driven by Joe Gibs, 30 weight break in. Make sure all is ready for starting right away. If the car was running well before engine removed use all the old stuff to restart the fresh engine. Carb, ignition etc, all must be known to be good. Find top dead center then set your distributor 10 deg advance. Once started keep the rpm up at 2000 for 20 min, if any need to shut down just shut down, no idling or cranking over to start. connect a battery charger to boost battery up to spec before your first start, have a large box fan mounted to front of car for cooling, drill a couple of small holes in the thermostat flange to allow air to escape from block when filling.
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Many people only use the outer springs (of the "dual springs") to do cam break-in with. Yet in prior times, I never read of doing such, unless it was a very picky builder.
I remember reading that the original 440 6bbl cam was a "low taper" cam, to allow for great spring pressures. Matching lifters were needed for such, too. At the time, I took that to mean "greater contact area" to spread the load of the stronger springs more. The flat tappets need to turn as they go up and down to minimize wear, which is what the crown does.
You're worried about flat tappet lifters and cams, I have seen the many videos on the Gen III Hemi lifters, plus knowing about the multitude of OEM lifter failures on Chevy roller-tappet engines, even going back to the 5.7L engines of the 1990s. So roller lifters are not a complete answer, either, from what I've seen.
Watch the videos of Mr. Lake Speed, Jr., in his various evolutions over the years. From when he was actively involved with NASCAR (as in with his father), then his later gigs with Joe Gibbs Racing (where he developed the Driven brand of motor oils), then to his current gig with Total Seal Piston Rings and being involved in Speediagnostics. Plus his videos on the Porsche Club involvements.
One of the things he mentions is that zddp ALONE is not the miracle item many perceive it to be, but when the rest of the total additive package is designed around it, THEN best wear protection can result. In the comparison of the Castrol GTX and "prior levels" of zddp in their GTX Classic oils, the interesting thing is that crankshaft bearing wear also decreased with higher zddp levels.
I had already read (www.bobistheoilguy.com forums) that too much zddp degraded the detergency additives. As some of the NASCAR oils had up to 3000ppm of zddp, but after that 500 miles, they would be drained, so the detergency items were not as important as in a 4000mile oil change interval normal engine, that sees a multitude of temperature cycles.
One of this more unusual orientations is that "pout-into" additives are not nearly as good as having an oil where they are already blended into the oil product. I agree with this, to a point.
I would say to keep on your current path. Using plenty of moly paste on the cam lobes and back of the timing sprocket and on the timing gears' teeth. With the non-adjustable Chrysler valve train, I suspect this can be a bit of over-kill, but doable. An old Sig Erson Cams instruction sheet mentioned pouring 2 pints of the old GM Engine Oil Supplement (the thick version) over the cam lobes, too. I'm not sure if that GM product still exists!
KEY thing is that the engine fires after one or two revolutions so that whatever pre-lube is on the cam lobes is not wiped from them with cranking and no oil being slung onto the cam lobes by the crankshaft. Then the 20-30 minutes of run time at 2000-2500rpm.
Take care,
CBODY67
I remember reading that the original 440 6bbl cam was a "low taper" cam, to allow for great spring pressures. Matching lifters were needed for such, too. At the time, I took that to mean "greater contact area" to spread the load of the stronger springs more. The flat tappets need to turn as they go up and down to minimize wear, which is what the crown does.
You're worried about flat tappet lifters and cams, I have seen the many videos on the Gen III Hemi lifters, plus knowing about the multitude of OEM lifter failures on Chevy roller-tappet engines, even going back to the 5.7L engines of the 1990s. So roller lifters are not a complete answer, either, from what I've seen.
Watch the videos of Mr. Lake Speed, Jr., in his various evolutions over the years. From when he was actively involved with NASCAR (as in with his father), then his later gigs with Joe Gibbs Racing (where he developed the Driven brand of motor oils), then to his current gig with Total Seal Piston Rings and being involved in Speediagnostics. Plus his videos on the Porsche Club involvements.
One of the things he mentions is that zddp ALONE is not the miracle item many perceive it to be, but when the rest of the total additive package is designed around it, THEN best wear protection can result. In the comparison of the Castrol GTX and "prior levels" of zddp in their GTX Classic oils, the interesting thing is that crankshaft bearing wear also decreased with higher zddp levels.
I had already read (www.bobistheoilguy.com forums) that too much zddp degraded the detergency additives. As some of the NASCAR oils had up to 3000ppm of zddp, but after that 500 miles, they would be drained, so the detergency items were not as important as in a 4000mile oil change interval normal engine, that sees a multitude of temperature cycles.
One of this more unusual orientations is that "pout-into" additives are not nearly as good as having an oil where they are already blended into the oil product. I agree with this, to a point.
I would say to keep on your current path. Using plenty of moly paste on the cam lobes and back of the timing sprocket and on the timing gears' teeth. With the non-adjustable Chrysler valve train, I suspect this can be a bit of over-kill, but doable. An old Sig Erson Cams instruction sheet mentioned pouring 2 pints of the old GM Engine Oil Supplement (the thick version) over the cam lobes, too. I'm not sure if that GM product still exists!
KEY thing is that the engine fires after one or two revolutions so that whatever pre-lube is on the cam lobes is not wiped from them with cranking and no oil being slung onto the cam lobes by the crankshaft. Then the 20-30 minutes of run time at 2000-2500rpm.
Take care,
CBODY67
volksworld
Well-Known Member
I have no idea how mild or wild your cam is....but I would NOT use lighter springs for the first couple hundred miles...20 min break in at a certain RPM, ok...but unless you intend to idle around town you need the proper spring rate or the lifter's gonna launch off the lobe and slam back down and that cant be good...thats why you need progressively stronger springs as the cam profile gets more aggressive...i have a very mild Hughes 2024 and even that they recommend 150 lb springs and they told me not to take out the damper springs for break in....i'm not denying that there have been many flat tappet issues with certain cam brands but keep in mind the guy in the video builds race engines for classes that require flat tappets and simply came to the conclusion it was no longer cost effective to address the issue
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Putting "plenty" of cam break in lube isn't needed. Just put some on there, and only the cam lobes and lifter bases. Don't put it in the lifter bores, sides of lifters, or cam bearing journals. And you don't need any on the cam gear thrust surface.
Ues the Driven break in oil is good, and use there oil afterwards. Mixing in a can of ZDDP in shelf oil doesn't work as good as oil made for the task of a flat tappet cam.
Ues the Driven break in oil is good, and use there oil afterwards. Mixing in a can of ZDDP in shelf oil doesn't work as good as oil made for the task of a flat tappet cam.
Cartel
Active Member
274 int./286 exh.
Intake Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio:
0.488 in.
Exhaust Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio:
0.491 in.
I watched the video and here's what I think...
IMHO...
The guy is selling roller cams now and not flat tappets. He wasn't making enough money for the work and time involved, so he sold his tappet grinder and concentrating on roller cams... and this is a camouflaged sales pitch. In other words, he wants to sell you a roller cam and the assorted goodies that go with it. More money involved with less risk, so smart business moves.
His examination of the surface was OK. I think I know the reason for the flaws in the surface, but I could be wrong and it really doesn't make much difference. Then he showed his own ground tappet and on it there were two dimples from testing the hardness on a hardness tester. For any of you that aren't familiar with testing hardness, it's done by pressing something called an indenter that has a ball shape on it. The indenter is pressed into the material and the amount that it presses in is measured and that gives you the hardness. That's a simplified explanation. The dimple not only presses into the surface, it also displaces the surrounding material upwards. So... those tiny imperfections in the surface of the commercially available tappet are nothing compared to those dimples. Testing like that is usually done before grinding.
Regarding the roller cam... Yes, there are advantages, but I don't see where in a car with a mild cam that it does much except drain your wallet. Yes, there are more flat tappet cam failures than there should be, but I don't know as it's been proven what the problem is. Cam failures on break in have happened for many years. I think it's 99% prep and 1% luck of the draw.
Some guys do break in cams with lower pressure springs, but it's done right away, not a few hundred miles later and then it's mostly with high pressure springs and aggressive cams.
IMHO...
The guy is selling roller cams now and not flat tappets. He wasn't making enough money for the work and time involved, so he sold his tappet grinder and concentrating on roller cams... and this is a camouflaged sales pitch. In other words, he wants to sell you a roller cam and the assorted goodies that go with it. More money involved with less risk, so smart business moves.
His examination of the surface was OK. I think I know the reason for the flaws in the surface, but I could be wrong and it really doesn't make much difference. Then he showed his own ground tappet and on it there were two dimples from testing the hardness on a hardness tester. For any of you that aren't familiar with testing hardness, it's done by pressing something called an indenter that has a ball shape on it. The indenter is pressed into the material and the amount that it presses in is measured and that gives you the hardness. That's a simplified explanation. The dimple not only presses into the surface, it also displaces the surrounding material upwards. So... those tiny imperfections in the surface of the commercially available tappet are nothing compared to those dimples. Testing like that is usually done before grinding.
Regarding the roller cam... Yes, there are advantages, but I don't see where in a car with a mild cam that it does much except drain your wallet. Yes, there are more flat tappet cam failures than there should be, but I don't know as it's been proven what the problem is. Cam failures on break in have happened for many years. I think it's 99% prep and 1% luck of the draw.
Some guys do break in cams with lower pressure springs, but it's done right away, not a few hundred miles later and then it's mostly with high pressure springs and aggressive cams.
Cartel
Active Member
theres no escape by the looks of it
Cartel
Active Member
I havent had the chance to yet.
thanks to rock auto I keep getting junk like this (obviously returned damaged items in a taped up box):
57fury440
Senior Member
I agree.
volksworld
Well-Known Member
I've even gotten rock auto stuff where someone returned stuff in the wrong box...like bought a $10 set of brake pads and a $50 set of pads and put the cheap ones in the good box and sent them back
Cartel
Active Member
the machine shop said I'd be good up to 510 lift. I hope he's right
I'll check anyway though
ynst
Member
Use a high-zinc content oil like 20W-50 Valvoline VR-1 (by far, the best) or Mobile 1 Racing oil.
In 1994 the industry removed zinc from motor oils because it had a negative effect on catalytic converters. While this benefited newer engines, it dealt a death blow to older engines with flat tappet camshafts and, as a result, worn out camshafts became the norm. The lubricating properties of zinc and phosphorous are essential for maintaining the longevity of older internal combustion engines.
Zinc can damage catalytic converters. For that reason, the EPA has mandated that zinc levels be reduced in today's oils. Most, if not all, modern automotive and truck engines are using overhead camshafts or roller lifters. These motors don't require a lot of zinc because the loads on the cams and lifters aren't as great as those in flat lifter motors
Avoid the problem by choosing the right oil-- that has a zinc content of at least .11%. If you're running zero zinc content oil in an old engine
Bottom Line:
It the vehicle doesn’t have a catalytic converter, use a high zinc-content motor oil.
2014 engine oil zinc content chart sorted by viscosity, zinc content, brand name
In 1994 the industry removed zinc from motor oils because it had a negative effect on catalytic converters. While this benefited newer engines, it dealt a death blow to older engines with flat tappet camshafts and, as a result, worn out camshafts became the norm. The lubricating properties of zinc and phosphorous are essential for maintaining the longevity of older internal combustion engines.
Zinc can damage catalytic converters. For that reason, the EPA has mandated that zinc levels be reduced in today's oils. Most, if not all, modern automotive and truck engines are using overhead camshafts or roller lifters. These motors don't require a lot of zinc because the loads on the cams and lifters aren't as great as those in flat lifter motors
Avoid the problem by choosing the right oil-- that has a zinc content of at least .11%. If you're running zero zinc content oil in an old engine
Bottom Line:
It the vehicle doesn’t have a catalytic converter, use a high zinc-content motor oil.
2014 engine oil zinc content chart sorted by viscosity, zinc content, brand name
| 20W-50 | |
| Valvoline Race | 0.2 |
| Kendall GT-1 | 0.16 |
| Shell Truck Guard | 0.15 |
| Spectro Golden 4 | 0.15 |
| Spectro Golden M.G. | 0.13 |
| Valvoline Turbo | 0.13 |
| Unocal | 0.12 |
| Exxon High Performance | 0.11 |
| Valvoline All Climate | 0.11 |
| AMSOIL (new) none | |
| AMSOIL (old) none | |
| Castrol GTX .12 | |
| Havoline Formula 3 none | |
| Pennzoil GT Perf. none | |
| Quaker State Dlx. none | |
| Red Line none | |
| Valvoline Synthetic | 0.12 |
| 20W-40 | |
| Castrol Multi-Grade | 0.12 |
| AMSOIL none | |
| Quaker State none | |
| 15W-50 | |
| Mystic JT8 | 0.15 |
| Chevron | 0.11 |
| Mobil 1 none | |
| Red Line none | |
| 5W-50 | |
| Castrol Syntec | 0.1 |
| Quaker State Synquest none | |
| Pennzoil Performax none | |
| 5W-40 | |
| Havoline none | |
| 15W-40 | |
| Kendall GT-1 | 0.16 |
| Mystic JT8 | 0.15 |
| Valvoline All Fleet | 0.15 |
| Castrol | 0.14 |
| Exxon XD3 | 0.14 |
| Exxon XD3 Extra | 0.13 |
| Shell Rotella w/XLA | 0.13 |
| Valvoline Turbo | 0.13 |
| AMSOIL (new) none | |
| AMSOIL (old) none | |
| Chevron Delo 400 none | |
| Red Line none | |
| 10W-30 | |
| Valvoline Race (VR-1) | 0.2 |
| Kendall GT-1 | 0.16 |
| Shell Truck Guard | 0.15 |
| Exxon Superflo Supreme 133 | 0.13 |
| Shell Super 2000 | 0.13 |
| Castrol GTX | 0.12 |
| Shell Fire and Ice | 0.12 |
| Unocal Super | 0.12 |
| Valvoline Synthetic . | 0.12 |
| Chevron Supreme | 0.11 |
| Exxon Superflo Hi Perf 135 | 0.11 |
| Valvoline All Climate | 0.11 |
| AMSOIL (new) none | |
| AMSOIL (old) none | |
| Havoline Formula 3 none | |
| Mobil 1 none | |
| Pennzoil PLZ Turbo none | |
| Quaker State none | |
| Red Line none | |
| Spectro Golden M.G. none | |
| Valvoline Turbo .13 | |
| 5W-30 | |
| Valvoline Turbo | 0.13 |
| Castrol GTX | 0.12 |
| Chevron Supreme Synt. | 0.12 |
| Shell Fire and Ice | 0.12 |
| Valvoline Synthetic | 0.12 |
| Chevron Supreme | 0.11 |
| Exxon Superflow HP | 0.11 |
| Valvoline All Climate | 0.11 |
| Mystic JT8 | 0.1 |
| AMSOIL (new) none | |
| AMSOIL (old) none | |
| Havoline Formula 3 none | |
| Mobil 1 none | |
| Quaker State none | |
| Red Line none | |
| Unocal .12 |
commando1
Old Man with a Hat
I have to say it. HAVE to.
What's the best oil?...
What's the best oil?...
Cartel
Active Member
some of the lifers I got with the cam have some deep marks and some have nicks on the edge....
Cartel
Active Member
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