Next steps? '77 NYB w/400 4-bbl

Great_White

New Member
FCBO Gold Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2023
Messages
32
Reaction score
24
Location
North Carolina
Hi y'all,

When I bought my car back in August, it was running like crap. I barely got it home from VA to NC. It would die at idle in gear. I have since replaced the ignition with an orange box and new distributor and replaced the accelerator pump on the carb. It runs better, but still has a persistent random miss, bad mid-range throttle response and a higher idle than I'd like.

Is it a correct assumption that by replacing the ignition module and dizzy, I've effectively disabled lean-burn? If so, is it worth it to rebuild the existing Thermoquad with all its various emissions doo-dads, or try to find a pre-lean-burn TQ with better fuel metering and less junk hanging off it, or find an aftermarket carb that won't be a nightmare to get the tuning, linkage and kickdown right?

Or do I just have a vacuum leak somewhere that is the cause of all my woes and fixing that will get it dialed in?

What is a boy to do?

received_1494319791365250.jpeg
 
Prob have to change to a non lean burn carb unfortunately
 
Regarding the LB question. If the computer on the air cleaner assembly is unplugged, then the LB is disabled. That should have been part of the orange box refit process...but I thought I'd mention it.
 
Y'all need to fully research the LB system and how it changed from year to year, in order to "work around" it.

BUT, as I recall, ONE thing is that the advance curve calibrations are in the computer, not the distributor. So, if you unplug the computer, then whatever advance is then in the ignition timing is the BASE timing ONLY.

By the time your car was engineered, the TQ was becoming festooned with many "fixes" to decrease emissions. They all had their place, but could be troublesome in later life as that "wire" they were walking was becoming increasingly "narrow" (as to exhaust emission compliance).

The current Street Demon carburetor is pretty much a newer carb which copies the vast majority of TQ engineering, which is basically good and neat. There are also metering kits and such, too. I'd head in that direction. It'll also fit your existing intake manifold. Then add throttle linkage adapter Holley sells, too.

For ignition, several choices in the aftermarket. A stand-alone ignition system from Rick Ehrenberg, a rebuilt distributor from Halifoxhops (with some other complimentary items to make it work), or a DUI set-up. These things will get you a reliable system which is a distributor with internal "advance curves" rather than the distributor you have without any of that.

The DUI is compelling as it uses the common GM HEI module to run it, so if it is like the GM HEI, all it needs to work is a solid 12+Vole power feed (check its instructions online). There might be a kit to use an existing Chrysler distributor (advance) distributor and add the GM module external to it?

The ELB had two functions. A carb designed to provide an 18.0 to 1 air/fuel ratio at cruise (rather than the normal 14.8 ratio) and a distributor advance curve which went farther (as to advance levels) to ignite these leaner mixtures for greatly-reduced HC and CO emissions, and enough spark advance to get into the greatly-reduced NOx regions, too. The leaner mixtures take more lead time to get burnt before the piston reaches the TDC area, which is best performed by computers.

BUT no ignition system can work with a carburetor to attain good engine performance when there are vacuum leaks (which further lean the already lean mixtures!). Look for those FIRST, no matter what. Look for cracked vac hoses to the power brake booster, cruise control, and hvac system. Verify the hot base ignition timing, too. Check to verify the carburetor is snugged down to the manifold.

Additionally, the ELB system modulation works on "voltage and resistances". The throttle position transducer is similar to current Throttle Position Sensors (measures throttle position and rate of change via a potentiometer). The vacuum sensor (the vac line to the diaphram on the computer) measures engine load (idle, cruise, etc.). The idle speed connection (on the idle screw contact) tells the computer the carb is at hot base idle, so no advance functions. With these inputs, the ELB Computer configures a distributor advance map for best results of performance and emissions. There were also inputs from engine coolant temperature, ambient air temp, charge temperature (from an intake manifold runner), etc. Initially, it all worked well enough that the vehicles would pass their model year emissions without the need of an "after-treatment" catalytic converter . . . which was an accomplishment, to me. But in later years, converters were needed and by 1980 it all had morphed into a computerized system without the prior "lean burn" orientation.

The systems worked pretty well when new, but less so as time progressed. Rebuilding your existing TQ can be an exercise in futility when a new carb (as the Street Demon) will eventually be needed. Plus the full ignition conversion back to pre-ELB days with a distributor that has mechanical and vacuum advance in it.

Watch the post-Christmas sales!

Enjoy!
CBODY67
 
Y'all need to fully research the LB system and how it changed from year to year, in order to "work around" it.

BUT, as I recall, ONE thing is that the advance curve calibrations are in the computer, not the distributor. So, if you unplug the computer, then whatever advance is then in the ignition timing is the BASE timing ONLY.

By the time your car was engineered, the TQ was becoming festooned with many "fixes" to decrease emissions. They all had their place, but could be troublesome in later life as that "wire" they were walking was becoming increasingly "narrow" (as to exhaust emission compliance).

The current Street Demon carburetor is pretty much a newer carb which copies the vast majority of TQ engineering, which is basically good and neat. There are also metering kits and such, too. I'd head in that direction. It'll also fit your existing intake manifold. Then add throttle linkage adapter Holley sells, too.

For ignition, several choices in the aftermarket. A stand-alone ignition system from Rick Ehrenberg, a rebuilt distributor from Halifoxhops (with some other complimentary items to make it work), or a DUI set-up. These things will get you a reliable system which is a distributor with internal "advance curves" rather than the distributor you have without any of that.

The DUI is compelling as it uses the common GM HEI module to run it, so if it is like the GM HEI, all it needs to work is a solid 12+Vole power feed (check its instructions online). There might be a kit to use an existing Chrysler distributor (advance) distributor and add the GM module external to it?

The ELB had two functions. A carb designed to provide an 18.0 to 1 air/fuel ratio at cruise (rather than the normal 14.8 ratio) and a distributor advance curve which went farther (as to advance levels) to ignite these leaner mixtures for greatly-reduced HC and CO emissions, and enough spark advance to get into the greatly-reduced NOx regions, too. The leaner mixtures take more lead time to get burnt before the piston reaches the TDC area, which is best performed by computers.

BUT no ignition system can work with a carburetor to attain good engine performance when there are vacuum leaks (which further lean the already lean mixtures!). Look for those FIRST, no matter what. Look for cracked vac hoses to the power brake booster, cruise control, and hvac system. Verify the hot base ignition timing, too. Check to verify the carburetor is snugged down to the manifold.

Additionally, the ELB system modulation works on "voltage and resistances". The throttle position transducer is similar to current Throttle Position Sensors (measures throttle position and rate of change via a potentiometer). The vacuum sensor (the vac line to the diaphram on the computer) measures engine load (idle, cruise, etc.). The idle speed connection (on the idle screw contact) tells the computer the carb is at hot base idle, so no advance functions. With these inputs, the ELB Computer configures a distributor advance map for best results of performance and emissions. There were also inputs from engine coolant temperature, ambient air temp, charge temperature (from an intake manifold runner), etc. Initially, it all worked well enough that the vehicles would pass their model year emissions without the need of an "after-treatment" catalytic converter . . . which was an accomplishment, to me. But in later years, converters were needed and by 1980 it all had morphed into a computerized system without the prior "lean burn" orientation.

The systems worked pretty well when new, but less so as time progressed. Rebuilding your existing TQ can be an exercise in futility when a new carb (as the Street Demon) will eventually be needed. Plus the full ignition conversion back to pre-ELB days with a distributor that has mechanical and vacuum advance in it.

Watch the post-Christmas sales!

Enjoy!
CBODY67
Thanks for the extensive info, greatly appreciated! The brakes do not seem particularly "boosted" compared to other '70s yachts I've driven, so that's a good place for me to start looking again. I did a cursory examination a while back but nothing was obvious. Doesn't mean here isn't a crack somewhere out-of-sight in a hose or the booster itself, right? More investigation to come...

The distributor was replaced along with the ignition module, I had that work done at a shop as the car was pretty undriveable at that point and I didn't have a garage. I wanted a small-cap HEI distributor but the message didn't get communicated to the tech, and he went with the "orange box" module and distributor (I'm not sure what model).

Is the Street Demon #1901 the right choice? Sure looks like a TQ, and 625 CFM should give good throttle response and vacuum, right? Will I need a spacer along with the linkage adapter?
 
If the distributor and orange box came in a "kit", it might well be the Mopar Perf kit to convert points ignition to electronic ignition. The great thing about those kits was that they had OEM-level parts and wiring harness for a reasonably easy plug-n-play installation. A good strategic move, especially in the prior times before Chrysler started licensing those units rather than doing them themselves.

The Street Demon carb is an exact copy of the TQ, other than the secondary throttle plate. It's orientation is more like the old 1960s Holley 950cfm carb where the secondaries had one big throttle plate rather than two of them. Now, with the "sunglasses" shape, it's a "Goggle Valve". Gives the spreadbore air flow capacity BUT will bolt to a normal 4bbl intake. It will bolt to both types of intake manifold carb mounting pads. With the stock intake, I suspect you will need the normal, thick OEM-style spreadbord carb base gasket. The normal throttle linkage adapter will be needed, too.

The one thing is that wiring the electric choke would be different. Chrysler was using an "electric assist" choke heater mechanism, with a resistor to modulate the electricity based on engine metal temperature. The electric choke on the aftermarket carburetors need power all of the time, not just at some times. Wiring it should be in the instructions, to a keyed "hot" power source. From the factory, you might tweak the choke coil adjustment to get it off quickly and still have good drivability from dead cold, going a notch leaner than normal.

For diagnostic purposes, you might go to the auto supply and buy a new control box for a 1974 or so Chrysler (pre-ELB) to swap in placce the orange box. Others have mentioned the Mopar-licensed kits have had issues with their control boxes. That, by itself, can cause performance issues, so that might be the problem.

Back to the Street Demon, main thing is to get the electric choke model, 650cfm. When I first saw the "TQ look", I almost fell out of my chair. Moreso when I looked at the innards, which also included a tube to go to the accel pump shooters. I was amazed. The phenolic float bowl as an option made the look complete. I'm not a big fan of shiny carburetors, but that can work too, if that's what you desire. Watch the sales at Summit and Jegs.

Take care,
CBODY67
 
Last edited:
If the distributor and orange box came in a "kit", it might well be the Mopar Perf kit to convert points ignition to electronic ignition. A good strategic move, especially in the prior times before Chrysler started licensing those units rather than doing them themselves.

The Street Demon carb is an exact copy of the TQ, other than the secondary throttle plate. It's orientation is more like the old 1960s Holley 950cfm carb where the secondaries had one big throttle plate rather than two of them. Now, with the "sunglasses" shape, it's a "Goggle Valve". Gives the spreadbore air flow capacity BUT will bolt to a normal 4bbl intake. It will bolt to both types of intake manifold carb mounting pads. With the stock intake, I suspect you will need the normal, thick OEM-style spreadbord carb base gasket. The normal throttle linkage adapter will be needed, too.

The one thing is that wiring the electric choke would be different. Chrysler was using an "electric assist" choke heater mechanism, with a resistor to modulate the electricity based on engine metal temperature. The electric choke on the aftermarket carburetors need power all of the time, not just at some times. Wiring it should be in the instructions, to a keyed "hot" power source. From the factory, you might tweak the choke coil adjustment to get it off quickly and still have good drivability from dead cold, going a notch leaner than normal.

For diagnostic purposes, you might go to the auto supply and buy a new control box for a 1974 or so Chrysler (pre-ELB) to swap in placce the orange box. Others have mentioned the Mopar-licensed kits have had issues with their control boxes. That, by itself, can cause performance issues, so that might be the problem.

Take care,
CBODY67
Thanks again, you are really helping me to learn the nuances of this engine. I'm going to start with a smoke test, there's no reason to assume there isn't a vacuum leak with the lean symptoms I'm having. If there's no leak and the problem persists, I'll swap over to the Holley 1901. I'll let you know what I find!
 
You've got an orange box, early/mid 70's style electronic ignition now, so the lean burn computer is no longer hooked up. It sounds like your mid range throttle response is likely a carburetor issue. High idle is carburetor issue or vacuum leak (assuming just turning the idle screw down makes the engine stall). The random miss could also be a carburetor issue, but my first guess would be a single plug wire is loose, or burnt, or one plug is fouled. If it were me, I'd start with a full stock rebuild kit on the carburetor you have and see what you get.
 
Make sure your timing is correct, these engines will happily eat almost any fuel mixture as long as the timing's set right. (If possible, check to make sure your transfer slots are set properly too). On my car, I had the timing severely retarded, it would idle decent, and high-RPM would also be decent, but it was a nightmare for normal driving. After I advanced timing to a reasonable setting, everything improved in terms of drivability. To note on this, the harmonic balancer on these engines sometimes tends to shift with age, causing the factory timing marks to be unreliable. That means that you'll either have to make new timing marks, or tune by ear.
Your new distributor might also not be curved to your engine (which shouldn't cause terrible driving conditions, but might be something to look into).

The Lean-Burn carburetors don't have a ported vacuum advance source, which I've found works best for vacuum advance. A non-Lean-Burn carb would have that, as well as a richer jetting (which certainly wouldn't hurt).

On the subject of 'getting rid of all the extra junk', I say to do it. I did it on my Imperial and would never go back
 
In answer to an earlier observation, the lean-burn box is definitely unplugged...

Today I sprayed around all the vacuum connections I could find with brake cleaner, but didn't detect any changes in idle. My mechanic has a smoke machine, so I'll have him shake it down when I bring it over after the 1st of the year. I've got an exhaust leak that I need him to address, so it's going there anyway. The smoke test will be step 1, if that doesn't reveal anything it will be time to unleash the Street Demon.
 
Back
Top