Number matching / date correct.. Please help me understand

Marv

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First off this thread is honestly meant to help me understand and not to offend / piss somebody off. That´s important to me since it´s not that hard to connect the dots to a fellow member who just found a date correct engine for his restoration project.

But I have been asking myself for a long time now, what´s the upside of having a date correct engine for a car if it´s not the one it left the factory with?
Does it increase the value? And if so, why?
To my understanding the most valuable form of a collector car is a survivor, that still sports it´s first paint job, interior and the numbers matching drive train.
And it´s either yes or no -> either numbers matching or not. If not, what does it help to have a date code correct block?
 
In my 8 years hear, nothing seems to stimulate "discussion" like numbers-matching topics. A least at dozen threads are here in my time alone, some reall good ones, some dumpster fires that got hosed by the mods fo getting personal.

That said, I can only offer my view, with the disclaimer I am just reflecting my own views.

I happen to like, and may pay more. as a buyer, for a car IF with all its "hard parts" -- sheet metal, blocks, trannies, axles, etc -- that are date correct for the approximate time the car went down the assembly line.

In that sense, its more valuable to me. Sellers who can confirm these facts tend to ask for more for their vehicles. Prima facie evidence that the "marketplace" may value date orginality/correctness.

In the era where OEM's started VIN marking hard parts, and if date coding is deemed important in a valuation, having the "correct" years but NOT the exact part put on the car on the assembly line because its long gone, may be the next best compromise.

Right date, different car might affect buyer/selller expectations

Big circle back to my point.

Peoples' preferences on the degree of originality they want abd are will to pay more for, vary. I like "numbers-matching" for major parts and am willing to pay more for it to my own personal limits.

My observation after 40 yers at this hobby is it - numbers/date matching approximating vehicle build date - , seems to have marketplace value in this hobby.
 
If not, what does it help to have a date code correct block?

It may not be numbers matching, but it's as close as you're going to get.

Lots of Hemi cars had the Hemis robbed out of them.

When I went to my first big - Northwest Nationals - Mopar thingie, a very well known local collector buddy of mine had a '67 GTX - 1st year - Hemi 4sp car for sale - $1500 - turnkey car that he drove to the show, the car was straight as a pin, 4 speed, mint black interior, with 383 and 383/440 K member.

I love that body style and I've often regretted no buying that car - $1500 - was a lot of money then, and although you'd never find the numbers matching Hemi for it, unless you got real lucky, you could find one, and K member and put the car back to near original, and that's where block date codes come in.

The closer the better.

An interesting aside and I don't know if anyone knows the answer to this, but what if your engine blew up under warranty and Chrysler changed it out, would they stamp the VIN into the block like the original?
 
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I agree numbers matching /original large parts are most interesting for me. They do add some value in my opinion, but for me it comes down to the personal challenge and success of finding that elusive “date correct “ part. I am not going to fault people for non Date correct parts as sometimes you just need to use the resources available to you.
 
But I have been asking myself for a long time now, what´s the upside of having a date correct engine for a car if it´s not the one it left the factory with?
Does it increase the value? And if so, why?
To my understanding the most valuable form of a collector car is a survivor, that still sports it´s first paint job, interior and the numbers matching drive train.
And it´s either yes or no -> either numbers matching or not. If not, what does it help to have a date code correct block?

Pre 68 blocks and transmission are not stamped with a VIN so in the example of the '67 GTX, there is at least some reasoning to try and find a date correct block. It's the best way for pre 68 cars to at least come close to the concept of 'numbers matching'. "WElllll. It COULD have been the original block."

For 68 and later, it makes no sense to me to try and find a date correct block. Original is original. Not original is not original. Close is not original so who cares if the block is a month or three years off the SPD.
 
I will chime in here.

I have a 70 challenger. FC7 (plum crazy) with a white bumble bee stripe. 440 six pak. D21 4 speed. Dana 60 with 354 rear. White interior black top.
I purchased this car because it is a V code and I can not afford a done V code. I have to purchase the bottom of the barrel as my budget is not in the investors range.

For the challenger market, this car is second to the top, trumped only by the Hemi. Cuda's trump chally's.
My car has it's fender tag. No build sheet, no window sticker, no original motor or trans.

Since this car is one of the "money" cars on the market, the numbers matching parts makes a huge difference in resale price.

The original motor was found in New York by the fella I bought the car from. Cuda Cody.
He agreed to a price, if I recall correctly, 4000 for the original vin stamped motor. The original motor will add about a 10K value to the resale of the car. When his wife arrived in New York, the fella that had made the agreement changed his mind and raised the price to 8K, but only after his wife had flown into New York to procure the deal. He backed out on the motor for 8K as it would not add the value to the car. 8K, plus some reworking of the motor and the cost of flying to New York from Oregon, plus the shipping of the motor adds up to more than the 10K that would have been added to the value of the car. I think after this situation, he lost his steam with the car and moved on to way better things. He has all kinds of cool stuff and this is the bottom of his barrel. I bought it. haha.

Anyway, Since the motor is now unfound and I am trying to relocate it the 10K value is wrecked. Instead, I have found a warranty block that has a correct date code for the month that this car was created. A somewhat early V code car. Unfortunately the warranty tag is gone. However the value of the date correct block but not having it's vin stamped on it by the warranty department means that the value of that motor only adds about 2-3K onto the worth of the car.

I have also found a date correct, non stamped 4 speed transmission. It was rebuilt by Brewers. It sits awaiting it's time to shine in a coffin box. This trans ads some value to the car again. Probably around the same 2-3 K tot he over all value.

On to the rearend. I have purchased a date correct Dana 60. Unfortunately it is a 410 gear dana. Still, date correct and with it's original plastic plug. This adds again, maybe 2-3K value to the car. It cost me that much to purchase it without a rebuild yet.

As far as knowledge, the market shows that a numbers matching motor/trans/rearend adds plenty of value to a car. Even if it isn't survivor paint or interior. That drive train can add up to 20K of value for the vin stamp being correct.

THIS IS NOT MY OPINION. That is hard evidence proved by the purchases of car collectors.
 
JS23V0B211303

Always looking for my engine and transmission. Finders Fee.

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20190912_182244.jpg


DSC01097.JPG
 
Numbers matching, all original is what saved my “parts car” from being a parts car. For C bodies it is more of a rarity to find decent ones with the original drivelines, so I imagine there is a premium paid for these “survivors”.

I have to agree with @69CoronetRT, once it’s not original it doesn’t really matter when the parts were made as long as it’s correctly executed. I am biased of course, my project vert has parts from ‘69 to ‘73, but I’m hoping that the final product will transcend that detail.

However, if you come to the C body world from the E or B body areas of the hobby I think you are inclined to feel that “date correct” is the next best thing to original.

In the end, it is a personal choice of the restorer, not a standard. I would not go above and beyond looking for date correct just to satisfy a potential increase in value later on.
 
I have a 70 challenger.

I had a '71 340 pistol grip car, originally Sassy Grass Green, but repainted dark blue, someone must have gotten tired of blowed rear ends because they stuck a DANA Track Lock diff in there, and that diff was about anyone talked about anytime I had the car out in Mopar circles.

And I had more offers to buy it out from under the car, I actually feared it might get ripped off, come out in the morning and the car's on cinder blocks...

Why in the world stuff that insanely heavy DANA 60 - narrowed 3/4 ton truck rear end - in the back of a 340 Challenger?

It had the "good heads", the good exhaust manifold, tuned by me, tuner extraordinaire, flowing through 2 brand new on the market then Flowmasters, and the car was just an absolute animal, a brute that could as easily annihilate a 8 3/4 pumpkin as a big block, I'm talking spinning - tire frying - through several gears on take off, rowing that big shifter, the 340 screaming at 6000 RPM like it could do it all day.

The car had an exhaust note so gnarly, so guttural, you could hear it for blocks, sounded like no other car on the road, and when I sold it to a buddy of mine for $2500, I made him swear not to drive it anywhere near my house because I didn't want to hear it and feel the remorse.

Oddly enough, a few year later, his 17 years younger than me GF moved in with me, so I guess I did ok for him getting my Challenger because I needed to make rent, but I'd still prefer the car.
 
For 68 and later, it makes no sense to me to try and find a date correct block. Original is original. Not original is not original. Close is not original so who cares if the block is a month or three years off the SPD.

Thank you, so we´re on the same page! I thought I missed something crucial along the way.

So to wrap this up, some people care about date correct some don´t. I´m on the don´t care side.
 
I will chime in here.

I have a 70 challenger. FC7 (plum crazy) with a white bumble bee stripe. 440 six pak. D21 4 speed. Dana 60 with 354 rear. White interior black top.
I purchased this car because it is a V code and I can not afford a done V code. I have to purchase the bottom of the barrel as my budget is not in the investors range.

For the challenger market, this car is second to the top, trumped only by the Hemi. Cuda's trump chally's.
My car has it's fender tag. No build sheet, no window sticker, no original motor or trans.

Since this car is one of the "money" cars on the market, the numbers matching parts makes a huge difference in resale price.

The original motor was found in New York by the fella I bought the car from. Cuda Cody.
He agreed to a price, if I recall correctly, 4000 for the original vin stamped motor. The original motor will add about a 10K value to the resale of the car. When his wife arrived in New York, the fella that had made the agreement changed his mind and raised the price to 8K, but only after his wife had flown into New York to procure the deal. He backed out on the motor for 8K as it would not add the value to the car. 8K, plus some reworking of the motor and the cost of flying to New York from Oregon, plus the shipping of the motor adds up to more than the 10K that would have been added to the value of the car. I think after this situation, he lost his steam with the car and moved on to way better things. He has all kinds of cool stuff and this is the bottom of his barrel. I bought it. haha.

Anyway, Since the motor is now unfound and I am trying to relocate it the 10K value is wrecked. Instead, I have found a warranty block that has a correct date code for the month that this car was created. A somewhat early V code car. Unfortunately the warranty tag is gone. However the value of the date correct block but not having it's vin stamped on it by the warranty department means that the value of that motor only adds about 2-3K onto the worth of the car.

I have also found a date correct, non stamped 4 speed transmission. It was rebuilt by Brewers. It sits awaiting it's time to shine in a coffin box. This trans ads some value to the car again. Probably around the same 2-3 K tot he over all value.

On to the rearend. I have purchased a date correct Dana 60. Unfortunately it is a 410 gear dana. Still, date correct and with it's original plastic plug. This adds again, maybe 2-3K value to the car. It cost me that much to purchase it without a rebuild yet.

As far as knowledge, the market shows that a numbers matching motor/trans/rearend adds plenty of value to a car. Even if it isn't survivor paint or interior. That drive train can add up to 20K of value for the vin stamp being correct.

THIS IS NOT MY OPINION. That is hard evidence proved by the purchases of car collectors.

Interesting story and also sad that your car didn´t get its original engine back. But on the other hand your gain since it´s not valued as
a numbers matching car would be
 
Thank you, so we´re on the same page! I thought I missed something crucial along the way.

So to wrap this up, some people care about date correct some don´t. I´m on the don´t care side.

I agree with you. I'm a reasonably intelligent guy and I do not understand the reason for finding 'date correct' drivetrain in a post 67 car.

To me, 'date correct' or, the other good one, 'It's a warranty block', is a lame way to rationalize non numbers matching.
There are no degrees of 'not original'.

Your milage may vary.
 
It's only original once, but we like to fantasize, hypothesize, spin tales.


I think my '63 Wonton has original air in the tires as they are original and have never been flat.
 
It's only original once, but we like to fantasize, hypothesize, spin tales.


I think my '63 Wonton has original air in the tires as they are original and have never been flat.
NOS air. Factory installed. THere's a market for that. LOL
 
Thank you, so we´re on the same page! I thought I missed something crucial along the way.

So to wrap this up, some people care about date correct some don´t. I´m on the don´t care side.
In 67 and down, date correct  is #s matching.
so im all for that.
but lets say you have a 69 charger, and youve got a 440 out of the exact same car, built around the same time.
Would you prefer that over a 78 motorhome cast crank whatever 440??
I would. Maybe that's just me. Oh and I'm a keep em type guy, so the whole boo-hoo value is of no consequence to me. I just like nice stuff.
 
Matching year engine is a big deal for me, because my stuff is old and newer stuff is inferior.

My '70 Wonton 4x4 w DANA 70's front/back has a 318 out of a 1980 Dodge Diplomat because the farmer/hired man blew up the original engine in just 4 years of ownership. I remember dude telling me where they bought it, way out in the sticks and the first thing they did to it was drive it back here "pedal to the metal" 4.88 gears.

And they took the original engine to the auto wreckers where they bought the replacement, long gone, not even sure if they thought to save the original oil pan.

I put a real timing chain set in the '80 318, and been plowing - like tractor pulls - with it ever since, tough tough engine - maybe built by IHC - but I'd like to have an actual 1970 truck engine in the truck.

Truck motors are stamped PM for Premium 318 or whatever size the engine is, this was a heavier duty engine than a passenger car engine, and so I bought a truck with correct year 318 in it although I never really had to swap motors and then fell in love with that truck, no longer a donor.
 
Interesting story and also sad that your car didn´t get its original engine back. But on the other hand your gain since it´s not valued as
a numbers matching car would be
Unfortunately, with a challenger ebody restoration the cost would be greater than 60K to achieve a car worth 60K. The numbers part of the equation would add that value. Without those numbers the car technically isn't worth building.
I could just build a "clone" for far less.
I didn't buy the car for resale purposes. I just wanted a V code car, one way or the other. Got it. Kinda.
What I look for is what people make cuda's out of and subsequently lose the original information about the car.
I actually look for the M46's (70 BH) which are a low production and low value car. 400 supposed made with 28 on my list of known M46's. Low production, but low value.
So to me, I would gladly pay some more coin for an M46 that has it's original engine, regardless of which motor it is. As long as it's the numbers matching motor.
That right there is your answer to your question. I'm willing to pay extra for the sought after option. Those who collect a specific car will pay more for a car that has it's original motor/drivetrain and original paint/interior.
I'm that sucker. Your the one who will gain the 2000 extra. So, yes. Numbers makes a big difference for those who are willing to pay YOu more for your car. Those are the ones who matter when your selling something.

Here's what I'm after.
WANTED: 1970 barracuda with M46 option in Cars For Sale or Wanted

Picture for reference. Notice the scoops behind the door down low.

Al's M46 16.jpg


Al's M46 tag.jpg
 
To me, sourcing correct / date coded parts (there are many parts with codes/dates, not just the block) shows you've put more research/effort into the restoration of the car and therefore more likely to have took the time to do things proper and correct throughout the car without halfa**ing things here and there.

Almost anyone can slam a car together with whatever parts they happen across. Just a date a coded block in a clobbered together car isnt going to increase the value significantly. The premium is found in the attention to detail throughout the entire build.
 
Here's a neat repop - USA made - part I just bought that's missing from many an underhood compartment, or is it nearly all of them?

This is the 2nd one I've bought for LA318, and it looks like I need to find one for a '70 383, if not exactly the same part.


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