69CoronetRT
Senior Member
The research and documentation you are doing is important to the hobby. Please keep it up.
Sense and nonsense of fender tags
- Thread starter PeugFra
- Start date
The research and documentation you are doing is important to the hobby. Please keep it up.
That section on page 9 of the police brochure dealing with special-order wiring and access holes options makes for some very interesting reading. A scanner is momentarily out of reach, so here’s the raw text:
“Special Roof Wiring and Wiring Access Holes to facilitate field installation of agency’s emergency roof light system are available on sedans as follows:
1. Roof Wiring Hole Options
A. A 5/8”-diameter roof hole located on centerline of car 15” to rear of upper windshield molding is recommended. An alternate hole location at 19” for compact or intermediate and 22” for full-size cars is also available.
B. A single 5/8”-diameter hole located on left side of car approximately 6” inboard of drip rail and 26” to rear of upper windshield molding measured on centerline of roof.
NOTE: Holes are weatherproofed for car shipment only.
2. Wiring
A. Single 12-gauge wire routed from roof (with our without roof hole) to junction of right front pillar post and instrument panel. Wiring will be coiled in a 6” coil and spot-taped to roof at same location as roof holes. Specify location.
B. Four 12-gauge wires routed same as single 12-gauge in ‘A’. Can be used in lieu of 18-, 16- or14-gauge requirements.
C. Combination of two 16-gauge and two 12-gauge wires with molded grommet, routed same as ‘A’. Requires roof hole. Specify location from roof hole section above. Grommet weatherproofs installation to eliminate water entry around wires.”
So when special wiring is ordered, a special hole may, but need not be ordered as well, depending on the wiring options.
The documented sales code that deals with these features is
F41 Roof Wiring - w/Hole
but that can’t be used with the above options, because the special wiring and the special hole do not necessarily go together.
“Special Roof Wiring and Wiring Access Holes to facilitate field installation of agency’s emergency roof light system are available on sedans as follows:
1. Roof Wiring Hole Options
A. A 5/8”-diameter roof hole located on centerline of car 15” to rear of upper windshield molding is recommended. An alternate hole location at 19” for compact or intermediate and 22” for full-size cars is also available.
B. A single 5/8”-diameter hole located on left side of car approximately 6” inboard of drip rail and 26” to rear of upper windshield molding measured on centerline of roof.
NOTE: Holes are weatherproofed for car shipment only.
2. Wiring
A. Single 12-gauge wire routed from roof (with our without roof hole) to junction of right front pillar post and instrument panel. Wiring will be coiled in a 6” coil and spot-taped to roof at same location as roof holes. Specify location.
B. Four 12-gauge wires routed same as single 12-gauge in ‘A’. Can be used in lieu of 18-, 16- or14-gauge requirements.
C. Combination of two 16-gauge and two 12-gauge wires with molded grommet, routed same as ‘A’. Requires roof hole. Specify location from roof hole section above. Grommet weatherproofs installation to eliminate water entry around wires.”
So when special wiring is ordered, a special hole may, but need not be ordered as well, depending on the wiring options.
The documented sales code that deals with these features is
F41 Roof Wiring - w/Hole
but that can’t be used with the above options, because the special wiring and the special hole do not necessarily go together.
Another reason for homing in on roof-light-related codes is the association of F49 with marked police vehicles. Based on other information (special paint, spotlights), all cars with F49 on the fender tag were marked PK or A38 cars. Known agencies are the Colorado and the North Carolina Highway Patrol and the US Border Patrol.
For one 1975 car with F49 it cannot be decided whether it was marked or unmarked. It's original paint was LE9 Vintage Red, so maybe a fire squad car?
On the other hand, for three PK or A38 cars it is clear that they were unmarked police cars and none of these has F49 on the fender tag.
Apart from special paint, spotlights, hub caps and special antennae, the roof light is a very visibile feature of a marked police car.
For one 1975 car with F49 it cannot be decided whether it was marked or unmarked. It's original paint was LE9 Vintage Red, so maybe a fire squad car?
On the other hand, for three PK or A38 cars it is clear that they were unmarked police cars and none of these has F49 on the fender tag.
Apart from special paint, spotlights, hub caps and special antennae, the roof light is a very visibile feature of a marked police car.
my Windsor built 69 has cruise, I have it's buildsheet, I can check it if it would be of help.
I have a few 73 Fury Police buildsheets I can look at tonight.
My 85 Caravelle Salon AHB has the roof wiring, and I took photos of the wiring...
That would be great! I'm especially curious to find out if there are more cases like the one shown in post #198, where you get a different code from the one you would expect for a certain slot, and see what these different codes are.
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Comparing the 1977 special-order Special Wiring and Access Holes options with info from earlier Plymouth Police Cars brochures, the basic set-up over the years was a single 12-gauge wire without a hole, offered as a regular option. The special-order set-up possibilities are first mentioned in the 1975 brochure, where Special Wiring set-up A also gets you the single 12-gauge wire and doesn't necessarily come with a hole. That practically duplicates the regularly offered roof wiring option.
1972 brochure
Police Options
...
Roof Light Wiring: Single, 12-gauge wire, less hole.
1974 brochure
Police Car Options
...
Roof Light Wiring: Single 12-gauge wire, less hole.
1975 brochure
Optional Equipment
...
Roof Light Wiring - Single, 12-gauge wire (less hole)
...
Special Roof Wiring and Access Holes
...
1976 brochure
Special Roof Wiring and Access Holes
...
From the 1975 brochure:
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Summing up:
As @69CoronetRT noted in post #192, other evidence for 1977 might come from order sheets and window stickers and such. A 1977 Fleet Buyer's Data Book could also be useful, so if someone has ever seen one ... For now we'll have to make do with the scraps of information collected sofar.
My proposal for F49 is "Special-Order Roof Wiring w/Hole", because:
- F49 is on the fender tag, so it relates to a modification of the Body-In-White;
- F49 is typically found on fender tags for marked police cars, all carrying a roof light;
- a roof light installation may come with a hole;
- F41 for just "Roof Wiring w/Hole" is lacking on the broadcast sheet, so some other code or codes must be replacing it.
But there are two more undocumented codes in the F section, F39 (on fender tag and broadcast sheet) and F44 (on broadcast sheet only), so what about them?
F44 was never seen on fender tags and on that account, whatever item it may indicate, it probably doesn't entail a BIW modification. My reason for excluding F39 as a possibility is the traditional association of F4- codes with roof light wiring, cfr. this code list for early Seventies cars, when there were still three F4- codes defined for roof light wiring:
F41 Roof Wiring with Hole
F45 Roof Wiring without Hole
F46 Roof Wiring
Referring to general coding practice, I think it's less likely that the actual meaning of F49 would be "Special-Order Hole for Roof Wiring", as I haven't seen a single example of such a roof wiring hole-only code. It's true however that this alternative interpretation would open up a possibility for assigning a meaning to F44, because going down this alternative route we still haven't got the roof wiring covered. As the ex-NCHP broadcast sheet is the only known case of the use of this code F44, there's just too little info to start tossing around proposals for F44. More broadcast sheets with F44 would help, if it would turn out to be the case that they are always accompanied by F49 on the same broadcast sheet.
Connecting F49 with one particular variant among the special-order options in the 1977 brochure is a bit more tricky (if such a specific relation exists at all), so let's leave it at that.
Footnote: At first I thought that police cars didn't come with window stickers, but they actually did, see this example for a 1972 Satellite Police Car:
As @69CoronetRT noted in post #192, other evidence for 1977 might come from order sheets and window stickers and such. A 1977 Fleet Buyer's Data Book could also be useful, so if someone has ever seen one ... For now we'll have to make do with the scraps of information collected sofar.
My proposal for F49 is "Special-Order Roof Wiring w/Hole", because:
- F49 is on the fender tag, so it relates to a modification of the Body-In-White;
- F49 is typically found on fender tags for marked police cars, all carrying a roof light;
- a roof light installation may come with a hole;
- F41 for just "Roof Wiring w/Hole" is lacking on the broadcast sheet, so some other code or codes must be replacing it.
But there are two more undocumented codes in the F section, F39 (on fender tag and broadcast sheet) and F44 (on broadcast sheet only), so what about them?
F44 was never seen on fender tags and on that account, whatever item it may indicate, it probably doesn't entail a BIW modification. My reason for excluding F39 as a possibility is the traditional association of F4- codes with roof light wiring, cfr. this code list for early Seventies cars, when there were still three F4- codes defined for roof light wiring:
F41 Roof Wiring with Hole
F45 Roof Wiring without Hole
F46 Roof Wiring
Referring to general coding practice, I think it's less likely that the actual meaning of F49 would be "Special-Order Hole for Roof Wiring", as I haven't seen a single example of such a roof wiring hole-only code. It's true however that this alternative interpretation would open up a possibility for assigning a meaning to F44, because going down this alternative route we still haven't got the roof wiring covered. As the ex-NCHP broadcast sheet is the only known case of the use of this code F44, there's just too little info to start tossing around proposals for F44. More broadcast sheets with F44 would help, if it would turn out to be the case that they are always accompanied by F49 on the same broadcast sheet.
Connecting F49 with one particular variant among the special-order options in the 1977 brochure is a bit more tricky (if such a specific relation exists at all), so let's leave it at that.
Footnote: At first I thought that police cars didn't come with window stickers, but they actually did, see this example for a 1972 Satellite Police Car:
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Now on F39. The four fender tags with this code show some commonalities:
- the code occurs on marked police cars;
- these cars are PM or PH cars with the A38 package, not PK cars;
- one example from 1974, one from 1975 or 1976 and two from 1977;
- the two from 1977 once again are ex-NCHP cars.
The data for the car from 1975 or 1976 do not come from a picture of the fender tag, but from a transcription of the same by a board user. It has a 1976 VIN, but in an earlier post the user says he's going to look at a 1975 Gran Fury Police Interceptor:
END
N41 P39 S41 Y39 214
F58 F88 G11 G63 H51 K57[?]
V02 U A38 F39 F43 F49
V02 E3X9 TX9 31? K09791
E86 D36 PH41 U6D 166386
It's clear that he had difficulty in deciphering the tag, as "K57" should rather read "K5X".
This choice of sales codes on the tag calls to mind the two 1977 ex-NCHP cars, cfr. the NCHP-gone-NYSP car:
N41 N94 P39 S41 214 END
G63 H51 M15 M25 M39
A38 F39 F43 F49 F58 G11
V02 V02 U 222 Y39 K5X
V02 E3X9 TX9 120 K07183
E86 D36 PH41 U7D 185042
As the board user was located in Bahama, NC, it is possible that we're looking at the tag data of another ex-NCHP 1975 or 1976 Gran Fury.
So in fact we may have up to three ex-NCHP fender tags, the only one not originating from this agency being this 1974 example:
Y39 END
G11 G63 H51 L25 M33 V0?
999 U F15 F39 F43 F58
999 B1X9 999 111 K05512
E86 D34 PM41 U4D 170794
"F43 F58" are the tell-tale codes that betray the presence of the A38 Police Package.
All in all there's not much to generalize about.
- the code occurs on marked police cars;
- these cars are PM or PH cars with the A38 package, not PK cars;
- one example from 1974, one from 1975 or 1976 and two from 1977;
- the two from 1977 once again are ex-NCHP cars.
The data for the car from 1975 or 1976 do not come from a picture of the fender tag, but from a transcription of the same by a board user. It has a 1976 VIN, but in an earlier post the user says he's going to look at a 1975 Gran Fury Police Interceptor:
END
N41 P39 S41 Y39 214
F58 F88 G11 G63 H51 K57[?]
V02 U A38 F39 F43 F49
V02 E3X9 TX9 31? K09791
E86 D36 PH41 U6D 166386
It's clear that he had difficulty in deciphering the tag, as "K57" should rather read "K5X".
This choice of sales codes on the tag calls to mind the two 1977 ex-NCHP cars, cfr. the NCHP-gone-NYSP car:
N41 N94 P39 S41 214 END
G63 H51 M15 M25 M39
A38 F39 F43 F49 F58 G11
V02 V02 U 222 Y39 K5X
V02 E3X9 TX9 120 K07183
E86 D36 PH41 U7D 185042
As the board user was located in Bahama, NC, it is possible that we're looking at the tag data of another ex-NCHP 1975 or 1976 Gran Fury.
So in fact we may have up to three ex-NCHP fender tags, the only one not originating from this agency being this 1974 example:
Y39 END
G11 G63 H51 L25 M33 V0?
999 U F15 F39 F43 F58
999 B1X9 999 111 K05512
E86 D34 PM41 U4D 170794
"F43 F58" are the tell-tale codes that betray the presence of the A38 Police Package.
All in all there's not much to generalize about.
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In search for a meaning for fender tag code F39 let's stick with the NCHP cars then. This time there is no material clue about the presence of an installed item, like there is in the cases of P39 (power windows) and F49 (roof wiring), only that it probably has to do with a modification of the Body-In-White. Building on the experience gained with P39 and F49 it is not far-fetched to suppose that undocumented F39 likewise modifies a documented code in the same code range. The 1977 F3- range offers:
F33 S/Lite - Lt Plr
F35 S/Lite - Rt Plr
F38 Roof Reinf
And info from 1970-1971 adds:
F36 Spotlight Lt, 5"
F37 Spotlight Rt, 5"
Although the 1977 Sales Codes List doesn't say so, F33 and F35 actually indicated 6" spot lights, per the 1977 brochure a regular option on Police Models and with the A38 Police Package.
The 1977 NCHP Gran Furys didn't have spotlights, so the only documented code available for modification is F38. In fact, roofplate reinforcement was a regular option to be had on 1977 Police Cars and with the A38 Police Package. The rationale behind this feature was the roof light installation, so we're in marked-car territory again.
An example of a fender tag with F38:
Admittedly I don't know whether roof reinforcement is actually present on NCHP cars. But the seller's text mentions the Federal Signal CJ184 beacon with integrated siren speaker, known to be a heavy boy: "As a side note, our county started buying Chrysler K cars in the 80's and had these installed on top for the deputies. The weight of the [CJ184] beacons caused the roof of the little cars to dent in and rainwater would pool on top of the cars!"
Maybe that was the reason the NCHP didn't settle for regular roof reinforcement. Note that there is only one slot on the broadcast sheet for an F3- code and that the fender tag tells us that it can't be F38 (either/or situation).
Given the above circumstantial evidence, I propose to read F39 as "Special-Order Roof Reinforcement".
Afterthought: The Florida Highway Patrol also used the CJ184 beacon and there is a restored 1977 FHP Gran Fury somewhere in Florida, so all this can be checked.
F33 S/Lite - Lt Plr
F35 S/Lite - Rt Plr
F38 Roof Reinf
And info from 1970-1971 adds:
F36 Spotlight Lt, 5"
F37 Spotlight Rt, 5"
Although the 1977 Sales Codes List doesn't say so, F33 and F35 actually indicated 6" spot lights, per the 1977 brochure a regular option on Police Models and with the A38 Police Package.
The 1977 NCHP Gran Furys didn't have spotlights, so the only documented code available for modification is F38. In fact, roofplate reinforcement was a regular option to be had on 1977 Police Cars and with the A38 Police Package. The rationale behind this feature was the roof light installation, so we're in marked-car territory again.
An example of a fender tag with F38:
Admittedly I don't know whether roof reinforcement is actually present on NCHP cars. But the seller's text mentions the Federal Signal CJ184 beacon with integrated siren speaker, known to be a heavy boy: "As a side note, our county started buying Chrysler K cars in the 80's and had these installed on top for the deputies. The weight of the [CJ184] beacons caused the roof of the little cars to dent in and rainwater would pool on top of the cars!"
Maybe that was the reason the NCHP didn't settle for regular roof reinforcement. Note that there is only one slot on the broadcast sheet for an F3- code and that the fender tag tells us that it can't be F38 (either/or situation).
Given the above circumstantial evidence, I propose to read F39 as "Special-Order Roof Reinforcement".
Afterthought: The Florida Highway Patrol also used the CJ184 beacon and there is a restored 1977 FHP Gran Fury somewhere in Florida, so all this can be checked.
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@'69FuryIIIConvertible
Any chance you can take pictures of the police build sheets and post them for viewing?
Any chance you can take pictures of the police build sheets and post them for viewing?
By the way the CJ184 used two power wires:
"Ideally, you should have at least three wires: 1) a power wire that feeds the motor and bulbs, 2) a power and ground wire for the siren speaker. The motor/bulbs were grounded through the baseplate when it was bolted to the roof of the vehicle. The light used the vehicles metal surface as its ground."
This fits none of the wiring variants described in the 1977 brochure, so from that perspective the roof wiring of 1977 NCHP cars is uh, ... special.
"Ideally, you should have at least three wires: 1) a power wire that feeds the motor and bulbs, 2) a power and ground wire for the siren speaker. The motor/bulbs were grounded through the baseplate when it was bolted to the roof of the vehicle. The light used the vehicles metal surface as its ground."
This fits none of the wiring variants described in the 1977 brochure, so from that perspective the roof wiring of 1977 NCHP cars is uh, ... special.
The fender tags of the two 1977 ex-NCHP cars contain one more undocumented code, M39, which puts us squarely in body molding territory. In the M3- range the 1977 Sales Codes List has:
M31 Belt Mldgs - Dr/Qtr
M33 Body Side Mldgs
M38 Deck Orn/Treatment
1977 Gran Furys normally don't come with body side molding, but they can have the optional body side molding with black vinyl insert, code K5X. The 1977 Color And Trim info isn't exactly clear at this point, but according to pics I saved over the years the PH trim level combines with an optional 2/4 molding running between the front and rear wheel wells, whereas the PM trim level has an optional 3/4 molding extending behind the rear wheel well. PH trim level cars aka Broughams with the A38 Police Package follow this differential treatment, as examples from the Texas Department of Public Safety show:
The fender tag of the second car has K5X, of course:
Although the NCHP Broughams do have an optional body side molding, it's not this 2/4 molding. Theirs is 3/4, serving as a divider in the two-tone NCHP color scheme:
The two NCHP fender tags we're talking about differ, though. The earlier one, corresponding to the restored NCHP-gone-NYSP car, has M39 and K5X, the later one, corresponding to the destitute car shown above, has only M39. This even more clearly expresses the relation between M39 and the 3/4 body side molding seen on NCHP cars, which is exceptional in relation to regular Broughams. The in-service pic even seems to suggest that it was a different kind of molding, unlike the 3/4 molding normally seen. But I can't make up my mind in this respect, as the pic with wood scenery doesn't confirm it.
This is beginning to look obsessive, but I assume "Special-Order Body Side Molding" to be the meaning of M39.
M31 Belt Mldgs - Dr/Qtr
M33 Body Side Mldgs
M38 Deck Orn/Treatment
1977 Gran Furys normally don't come with body side molding, but they can have the optional body side molding with black vinyl insert, code K5X. The 1977 Color And Trim info isn't exactly clear at this point, but according to pics I saved over the years the PH trim level combines with an optional 2/4 molding running between the front and rear wheel wells, whereas the PM trim level has an optional 3/4 molding extending behind the rear wheel well. PH trim level cars aka Broughams with the A38 Police Package follow this differential treatment, as examples from the Texas Department of Public Safety show:
The fender tag of the second car has K5X, of course:
Although the NCHP Broughams do have an optional body side molding, it's not this 2/4 molding. Theirs is 3/4, serving as a divider in the two-tone NCHP color scheme:
The two NCHP fender tags we're talking about differ, though. The earlier one, corresponding to the restored NCHP-gone-NYSP car, has M39 and K5X, the later one, corresponding to the destitute car shown above, has only M39. This even more clearly expresses the relation between M39 and the 3/4 body side molding seen on NCHP cars, which is exceptional in relation to regular Broughams. The in-service pic even seems to suggest that it was a different kind of molding, unlike the 3/4 molding normally seen. But I can't make up my mind in this respect, as the pic with wood scenery doesn't confirm it.
This is beginning to look obsessive, but I assume "Special-Order Body Side Molding" to be the meaning of M39.
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Not obsessive.
Please, continue.
Please, continue.
The 1977 NCHP broadcast sheet contains one more undocumented code, R39. R codes have to do with radios, and zeroing in on the R3- range we get:
R31 Single Rr Seat Speaker
R32 Dual Rr Seat Speakers
R35 Radio AM-FM-MX
R37 Radio AM-FM-MX - Stereo
R38 Radio AM-FM-MX - Search
However, the seller only mentions "AM radio", which doesn't square with the meaning of the documented codes in this range. There is a picture of the instrument panel of the restored car, but who can be certain that what we are seeing is the original set-up? And, if so, what radio is it exactly?
R39 is preceded on the broadcast sheet by another code for which only the final "1" can be read (a dot obscures the first digit). In the transcription in post #195 I included as conjecture
[R31 Single Rr Seat Speaker]
noting that this was in contradiction to the fact that the car has dual rear seat speakers, normally indicated by R32. Actually, the 1977 Sales Codes List offers two more possibilities:
R11 Radio - AM 2 Watt
R21 Radio - AM-FM
The first one would be more in line with the seller's description.
As the broadcast sheet contains an R3- code, it must indicate a factory-installed radio or radio-related item. Limiting ourselves to the available evidence we can only guess for what reason and in what way the meanings of R3- codes were modified to create a meaning for R39 and how this meaning relates to the other code in the R section of the broadcast sheet.
R31 Single Rr Seat Speaker
R32 Dual Rr Seat Speakers
R35 Radio AM-FM-MX
R37 Radio AM-FM-MX - Stereo
R38 Radio AM-FM-MX - Search
However, the seller only mentions "AM radio", which doesn't square with the meaning of the documented codes in this range. There is a picture of the instrument panel of the restored car, but who can be certain that what we are seeing is the original set-up? And, if so, what radio is it exactly?
R39 is preceded on the broadcast sheet by another code for which only the final "1" can be read (a dot obscures the first digit). In the transcription in post #195 I included as conjecture
[R31 Single Rr Seat Speaker]
noting that this was in contradiction to the fact that the car has dual rear seat speakers, normally indicated by R32. Actually, the 1977 Sales Codes List offers two more possibilities:
R11 Radio - AM 2 Watt
R21 Radio - AM-FM
The first one would be more in line with the seller's description.
As the broadcast sheet contains an R3- code, it must indicate a factory-installed radio or radio-related item. Limiting ourselves to the available evidence we can only guess for what reason and in what way the meanings of R3- codes were modified to create a meaning for R39 and how this meaning relates to the other code in the R section of the broadcast sheet.
Checking for further undocumented codes in my virtual fender tag collection for Formal Plymouths, there are two more, this time Interior Trim Codes:
97B3
99Y3
Both are on 1977 police cars and both contain the digit "9". In sofar they follow the pattern of the undocumented sales codes discussed up to now. The color information in positions 3 and 4, B3 Blue and Y3 Gold, is regular and poses no problem, but the trim grade info in position 1 and the seat-material-and-type info in position 2 is not in the books. For example, the 1977 police brochure has:
A1B3 heavy-duty cloth-and-vinyl bench seat, blue
K2Y3 heavy-duty all-vinyl bench seat, gold
P1B3, P1Y3 cloth-and vinyl bench seat, blue or gold (identical to standard Gran Fury offerings)
Going by pictures, trim grade is mainly discernible by the stitch pattern of the seats, while there is less variation in door panel decoration. Of course, I can't judge material quality and things like that. Examples:
A1B3
P1Y3
Undocumented code 99Y3 occurs on an ex-Colorado State Police PK car and the picture reveals little, to me at least:
Undocumented code 97B3 gives more clues. It occurs on an ex-Texas DPS Brougham w/A38 package and apart from the initial "9" the code is similar to a regular interior trim code for optional Brougham seating: G7B3 50/50 cloth-and-vinyl split bench seat in blue:
The Texas car's interior in fact has this same seating option, which corresponds perfectly to the info conveyed by the digit "7" in 97B3:
The difference must be in the trim grade then. The seating stitch pattern seems quite normal to me, but in the door panels the stitches above and below the door pull strap bezel are lacking, cfr. this civilian Brougham with G7 trim grade and seating:
In fact, that door panel stitch pattern came with any type of Brougham seating and is also seen on ex-NCHP Broughams w/A38 package, sporting regular interior trim code E3X9:
The Texans likely got their particular door panel trim grade by special order, and that's what the "9" in 97B3 says.
97B3
99Y3
Both are on 1977 police cars and both contain the digit "9". In sofar they follow the pattern of the undocumented sales codes discussed up to now. The color information in positions 3 and 4, B3 Blue and Y3 Gold, is regular and poses no problem, but the trim grade info in position 1 and the seat-material-and-type info in position 2 is not in the books. For example, the 1977 police brochure has:
A1B3 heavy-duty cloth-and-vinyl bench seat, blue
K2Y3 heavy-duty all-vinyl bench seat, gold
P1B3, P1Y3 cloth-and vinyl bench seat, blue or gold (identical to standard Gran Fury offerings)
Going by pictures, trim grade is mainly discernible by the stitch pattern of the seats, while there is less variation in door panel decoration. Of course, I can't judge material quality and things like that. Examples:
A1B3
P1Y3
Undocumented code 99Y3 occurs on an ex-Colorado State Police PK car and the picture reveals little, to me at least:
Undocumented code 97B3 gives more clues. It occurs on an ex-Texas DPS Brougham w/A38 package and apart from the initial "9" the code is similar to a regular interior trim code for optional Brougham seating: G7B3 50/50 cloth-and-vinyl split bench seat in blue:
The Texas car's interior in fact has this same seating option, which corresponds perfectly to the info conveyed by the digit "7" in 97B3:
The difference must be in the trim grade then. The seating stitch pattern seems quite normal to me, but in the door panels the stitches above and below the door pull strap bezel are lacking, cfr. this civilian Brougham with G7 trim grade and seating:
In fact, that door panel stitch pattern came with any type of Brougham seating and is also seen on ex-NCHP Broughams w/A38 package, sporting regular interior trim code E3X9:
The Texans likely got their particular door panel trim grade by special order, and that's what the "9" in 97B3 says.
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Enough has been said about the facts, now let's put them to work by developing a hypothesis that ties it all together. For the original version, see post #189 from December 26, 2021. Five sales codes ending in "9", all of them undocumented, it's a bit too much to assign to pure coincidence. Consider also that for most of these codes it could be demonstrated that they refer to special-order items, whereas for some others this can be reasonably assumed to be the case. What we have at hand here is a form-meaning correspondence.
In a code like F39, the final "9" signals something special and unknown, while the rest of the code, "F3" in this case, refers to the regular item or meaning this unknown thing is tied up with. In 1977-and-up broadcast sheets we have only the code range to find out about this regular item or meaning, because the sales codes are listed in numerical order in unlabeled slots, each within its own section. The list of known codes on the back of the broadcast sheet must be checked in order to find out about the code range an undocumented code relates to. The preceding posts have shown how clumsy the whole process can become.
Compared to this, with the broadcast sheet format in use before 1977 finding out the meaning of an undocumented code was actually a piece of cake. Almost every slot within a section had a label attatched to it that could take any of these three forms (examples from the 1971 version):
- both digits of the code plus a description, like "38 Roof Light Reinf."
- the first digit of the code plus a description, like "4- Roof Wiring"
- the first digit of the code, like "4-"
The letter of the code plus a general classification was given by the section where the slot was located, in the above examples "F Heavy Duty Fleet", so as a minimum two out of the three positions that make up a sales code were already given. In fact, such two-digit combinations sometimes carried a meaning of their own, like in the Power Items section:
P2- Seats
P3- Windows
P4- Doors/Tailgate/Deck Lid
1969-1974 sales codes have been studied pretty well over the years, so for that period one wouldn't expect to stumble upon undocumented codes so easily. Wrong! Actually it is fairly easy. Together with the examples F79, F99, J59 and N79 cited in post #198 consider this 1971 broadcast sheet snippet for a Colorado State Police car, that contains two further undocumented sales codes. All the others have been decoded successfully:
In line 6 slot C8- Seat Springs contains "9". The documented codes for this slot are:
C81 Front Heavy Duty Seat Springs
C83 Rear Heavy Duty Seat Springs
C85 Front & Rear Heavy Duty Seat Springs
Undocumented C89 here acquires the meaning "Special-Order Heavy Duty Seat Springs".
In line 7 slot F8- Deck Lid Knob/Pwr Release has "9". The documented codes at this point are:
F81 Deck Lid Release Remote
F82 Deck Lid Release Electric
Undocumented F89 now means "Special-Order Deck Lid Release". Maybe owner @robio can try and find out if there is something unusual with his deck lid release.
That undocumented sales codes ending in "9" should not be read as the sales codes ending in digits other than "9", is proven by interior trim code 97B3 (see previous post). Here "9" clearly runs counter to the format of regular interior trim codes, always starting with a letter. The only function of "9" is to indicate exactly at which point regular build info is superceded by something unknown originating from a special order. The rest of the code, "7B3" in this case, continues to convey its regular meaning.
In all cases "9" is in fact a pointer signaling to the user of the broadcast sheet to go and look somewhere else, because the info he expects to find at this point is simply not there. In this sense undocumented sales codes are not sales codes at all: they don't identify, they signal that for identification the broadcast sheet is the wrong place to be looking. That's why it's only logical not to include them in the Sales Codes List. Instead of "undocumented sales codes" it would be better to speak of "pointer codes".
As to the wider correlation, typically these pointer codes are found with fleet cars, ordered by a buyer who had bargaining power. There are numerous stories about the willingness of Chrysler to accomodate individual wishes expressed by the larger law enforcement agencies. Given that this was Chrysler's policy, a means was created to be able to code the unknown, ie. special items that a buyer insisted on being installed. This means is the Rule of Nine. It says that you can create a pointer code out of practically any known code by "nining out" the digit at the position that should not be read in the regular way.
In a code like F39, the final "9" signals something special and unknown, while the rest of the code, "F3" in this case, refers to the regular item or meaning this unknown thing is tied up with. In 1977-and-up broadcast sheets we have only the code range to find out about this regular item or meaning, because the sales codes are listed in numerical order in unlabeled slots, each within its own section. The list of known codes on the back of the broadcast sheet must be checked in order to find out about the code range an undocumented code relates to. The preceding posts have shown how clumsy the whole process can become.
Compared to this, with the broadcast sheet format in use before 1977 finding out the meaning of an undocumented code was actually a piece of cake. Almost every slot within a section had a label attatched to it that could take any of these three forms (examples from the 1971 version):
- both digits of the code plus a description, like "38 Roof Light Reinf."
- the first digit of the code plus a description, like "4- Roof Wiring"
- the first digit of the code, like "4-"
The letter of the code plus a general classification was given by the section where the slot was located, in the above examples "F Heavy Duty Fleet", so as a minimum two out of the three positions that make up a sales code were already given. In fact, such two-digit combinations sometimes carried a meaning of their own, like in the Power Items section:
P2- Seats
P3- Windows
P4- Doors/Tailgate/Deck Lid
1969-1974 sales codes have been studied pretty well over the years, so for that period one wouldn't expect to stumble upon undocumented codes so easily. Wrong! Actually it is fairly easy. Together with the examples F79, F99, J59 and N79 cited in post #198 consider this 1971 broadcast sheet snippet for a Colorado State Police car, that contains two further undocumented sales codes. All the others have been decoded successfully:
In line 6 slot C8- Seat Springs contains "9". The documented codes for this slot are:
C81 Front Heavy Duty Seat Springs
C83 Rear Heavy Duty Seat Springs
C85 Front & Rear Heavy Duty Seat Springs
Undocumented C89 here acquires the meaning "Special-Order Heavy Duty Seat Springs".
In line 7 slot F8- Deck Lid Knob/Pwr Release has "9". The documented codes at this point are:
F81 Deck Lid Release Remote
F82 Deck Lid Release Electric
Undocumented F89 now means "Special-Order Deck Lid Release". Maybe owner @robio can try and find out if there is something unusual with his deck lid release.
That undocumented sales codes ending in "9" should not be read as the sales codes ending in digits other than "9", is proven by interior trim code 97B3 (see previous post). Here "9" clearly runs counter to the format of regular interior trim codes, always starting with a letter. The only function of "9" is to indicate exactly at which point regular build info is superceded by something unknown originating from a special order. The rest of the code, "7B3" in this case, continues to convey its regular meaning.
In all cases "9" is in fact a pointer signaling to the user of the broadcast sheet to go and look somewhere else, because the info he expects to find at this point is simply not there. In this sense undocumented sales codes are not sales codes at all: they don't identify, they signal that for identification the broadcast sheet is the wrong place to be looking. That's why it's only logical not to include them in the Sales Codes List. Instead of "undocumented sales codes" it would be better to speak of "pointer codes".
As to the wider correlation, typically these pointer codes are found with fleet cars, ordered by a buyer who had bargaining power. There are numerous stories about the willingness of Chrysler to accomodate individual wishes expressed by the larger law enforcement agencies. Given that this was Chrysler's policy, a means was created to be able to code the unknown, ie. special items that a buyer insisted on being installed. This means is the Rule of Nine. It says that you can create a pointer code out of practically any known code by "nining out" the digit at the position that should not be read in the regular way.
69CoronetRT
Senior Member
Good work.
The more you think you know about coding and applications, then more you learn how little you know. MOST of the information that is public only scratches the surface of what actually happened. Sometimes, the published information is accurate. Quite often is is not.
Car makers are huge companies with ever-changing operational and administrative issues that evolved over decades. The nuances behind what they did and how they made cars is incomprehensible to most people. We're looking at a very small sliver of time in their existence, and with limited documentation, attempting to determine what happened.
Individual research like yours is critical to a detailed understanding.
The more you think you know about coding and applications, then more you learn how little you know. MOST of the information that is public only scratches the surface of what actually happened. Sometimes, the published information is accurate. Quite often is is not.
Car makers are huge companies with ever-changing operational and administrative issues that evolved over decades. The nuances behind what they did and how they made cars is incomprehensible to most people. We're looking at a very small sliver of time in their existence, and with limited documentation, attempting to determine what happened.
Individual research like yours is critical to a detailed understanding.
Already been mentioned but I too must call out @PeugFra ioutstanding work in this thread on the fleet stuff in particular.
I have/have owned ~50 fleet cars in the '69-'77 era (mainly the formals though) and in just 30 posts (#185-#216) I learned 10X as much as I learned in 30 years & 50 cars.
Dogged determination and super-sleuthing ... tremendous contributions to the hobby @PeugFra.
I have/have owned ~50 fleet cars in the '69-'77 era (mainly the formals though) and in just 30 posts (#185-#216) I learned 10X as much as I learned in 30 years & 50 cars.
Dogged determination and super-sleuthing ... tremendous contributions to the hobby @PeugFra.
Thank you all for the compliments! I just like to solve puzzles and had a good time with this one. If it served a purpose, all the better!
What still leaves me baffled is the absence of rear bumper guards in the in-service picture of the NCHP car. The broadcast sheet for the restored ex-NCHP car has the usual litany
M81 Ft Bumper Guards
M83 Rr Bumper Guards
M85 Bumper Guards Ft/Rr
and that was standard on 1977 Gran Fury. The restored car doesn't have rear bumper guards either, so it really makes me think that something is going on here. Oh well, it leaves something to puzzle for another round.
What still leaves me baffled is the absence of rear bumper guards in the in-service picture of the NCHP car. The broadcast sheet for the restored ex-NCHP car has the usual litany
M81 Ft Bumper Guards
M83 Rr Bumper Guards
M85 Bumper Guards Ft/Rr
and that was standard on 1977 Gran Fury. The restored car doesn't have rear bumper guards either, so it really makes me think that something is going on here. Oh well, it leaves something to puzzle for another round.
It's just a detail, but a fragment of new information has surfaced regarding the use and meaning of sales code M33. Please refer to post #184.
This fender tag for a 1974 Fury III, that seems to have been ordered as an unmarked police car, has probably M33 and what looks to be no vinyl insert in the full-length body mouldings:
V5X, the sales code for the black vinyl insert, presupposes and surpresses M33, as the two codes never appear together on Fury III fender tags. In real life, you can't insert something if you haven't got something to insert it in.
This fender tag for a 1974 Fury III, that seems to have been ordered as an unmarked police car, has probably M33 and what looks to be no vinyl insert in the full-length body mouldings:
V5X, the sales code for the black vinyl insert, presupposes and surpresses M33, as the two codes never appear together on Fury III fender tags. In real life, you can't insert something if you haven't got something to insert it in.
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