To shroud or not to shroud

73Polara360

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Greetings

My car does not have a fan shroud and I have secured a line on one through eBay. A little pricey for a piece of plastic. Car has been running fine without one, although in bad traffic it ticks slightly above midpoint from C to H, whereas my modern grocery getter always steadily stays just shy of midpoint on the C side no matter how bad the traffic is. Once we're moving it's back to midpoint.

On these old motors the fan is belt driven so low engine speed at idle and poor air movement sitting in traffic would certainly make for a hotter engine that makes sense.

I read the shroud can direct air better and produce better cooling but is it a pronounced difference and worth the 100 bucks plus shipping? This is for a 360la.

The purist in me wants the shroud just to have the engine bay more complete and I'm also interested to see if it improves cooling but I'm slightly strapped for cash for toys and tinkering this month....
 
Car has been running fine without one,
There's your answer. You don't need it.
although in bad traffic it ticks slightly above midpoint from C to H
Typical. It would probably move with the shroud too.
Once we're moving it's back to midpoint.
Good! Again, no need for shroud.
whereas my modern grocery getter always steadily stays just shy of midpoint on the C side no matter how bad the traffic is.
You are comparing apples and oranges. Your new car has half the engine size and a better cooling system with thermostat controlled fans.
 
Well.........We all know what opinions are good for and not all upgrades are an improvement but IMO, if you are seeing your gauge above mid point in traffic your car would likely profit from the shroud and a thermo seven blade fan. Mopar put them on cars with AC and cars with towing capabilities back in the day to help with heating issues. They installed core support seals to direct the air thru the radiator rather than over and under as well. My 65 Fury was acting the same as your car until I swapped out the 4 blade fan to the 7 blade and shroud. Now it never sees much over 180 on the gauge. High temps don't do your engine or under hood components any favors so when you weigh a couple hundred dollars against sitting on the road side with a blown hose or boiling the coolant out waiting for a tow truck, it don't seem quite so costly. Insurance is never cheap but you never want to be without it.
 
Cars used to not have fan shrouds, except maybe on the top to be a guard against direct access to a moving fan with the engine running.

With no shroud, the fan is pulling air only through the space in front of it. With a fan shroud, the ductwork puts the shroud's rear part as something of a venturi with a fan in the middle of it. Air is pulled through the entire radiator, not just the part in front of the fan, air flow wise. Shroudless, air CAN flow through all of the radiator, but the bulk of it will be directly in front of the engine-driven fan. Vehicle movement will push air through the complete radiator, though, once the vehicle is moving.

Chrysler Corp plastic fan shrouds do seem to be more expensive than they probably should be, BUT they are not an easy casting to make, either. I have not looked, but suspect that most of the repro items are for B/E-body cars (with the SAME radiator widths, they might also be a "will fit" for C-bodies???). All of those gradual curves help air flow compared to "right angles" in metal shrouds, I suspect.

I KNOW that everybody, including ME, starts to get a bit anxious when the heat gauge needle gets past the center mark on the gauge (which is probably abt 200*F), so I understand that. BUT as long as things cool back down once the car is moving, NO issues and all is well.

If you now know the way it operates, consistently, just watch for when it gets out of that operational parameter. THAT is the time to do something. OR maybe schedule a cooling system (including the block passages and related core plugs) "clean out and plug replacement" this winter, for good measure. With new molded hoses, too. Then you'll know everything is "operating as designed".

Just some thoughts and observations,
CBODY67
 
Greetings

My car does not have a fan shroud and I have secured a line on one through eBay. A little pricey for a piece of plastic. Car has been running fine without one, although in bad traffic it ticks slightly above midpoint from C to H, whereas my modern grocery getter always steadily stays just shy of midpoint on the C side no matter how bad the traffic is. Once we're moving it's back to midpoint.

On these old motors the fan is belt driven so low engine speed at idle and poor air movement sitting in traffic would certainly make for a hotter engine that makes sense.

I read the shroud can direct air better and produce better cooling but is it a pronounced difference and worth the 100 bucks plus shipping? This is for a 360la.

The purist in me wants the shroud just to have the engine bay more complete and I'm also interested to see if it improves cooling but I'm slightly strapped for cash for toys and tinkering this month....

Get yourself an A-1 16 inch electric fan kit for $50, shipping included for now. I always opt for a pusher fan as my FIRST cooling enhancement, as 98% of my driving is in town, with plenty stops and starts.

Hook the fan up as a pusher, something you can easily install in front of the radiator and use a 200 or 210 F thermal switch, preferably immersed in the coolant at the water pump, wire it to ground a contactor, which you should feed hot from the ignition switch, maybe using a SPST switch also to ground for occasions when you deem it wise to manually engage your pusher fan. This will help you in traffic quite a bit, and certainly is more cost effective than a traditional mechanical radiator fan shroud.

You can keep the pusher with a shroud when you finally get one too. During the cool season in Tucson, AZ, where today's afternoon ambient temperature will likely reach 114F, this being the HOT season, I remove my mechanical fan altogether and run only the electric fan to cool the engine. I have an EXCELLENT radiator, which will be of enormous help to you if you want more serious cooling enhancement, for a price.

Even with ambient temperatures in town of 114 or 115F, in traffic, Gertrude has yet to go over 200F. That's a nice temperature for a 383 to run at.

I hope you get your engine running as cool as you like too.
 
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Why are you trying to fix a problem you do not have. Quite a few cars in the sixties and seventies came without shrouds because they were not needed. There is a big difference in running a little hotter in severe weather than overheating. If you are worried about the temperature, install a good aftermarket gauge so you can see what it actually is.
 
Unlike some modern cars with their "flimsy" engine parts (to save weight), these older cast iron motors and cyl heads can take heat and live to tell about it.

At one itme, the radiator in my '80 Newport 360 2bbl had a few pinholes in the upper tank. It was at my shadetree shop, which is a good 30 minutes on the freeeway from home. I was going to "nurse" it home one afternoon. I knew where the "water stops" would be around the loop, so I headed out with tnose in mind. By the time I got to the first one, the gauge was already near the top, so I stopped to run some water on the radiator, then carefully removed the radiator cap to add a bit of water. Ready fo rthe next stop, about 10 minutes away. Same thing. Then for the longest leg of the trip.

I was not driving it hard and was not running the speed limit. Near the end of this leg, I pondered if I should be on the access road. That 360 was sounding like the overheated Valiant in the Dennis Weaver movie where a mysterious, driverless tanker truck was chasing him through the desert. It was clattering at the slightest hill or acceleration, but we made it to the next stop. By this time, it was night. It must have taken over an hour for the heat gauge needle to return from its hiding place behind the rh side of the gauge (when it got that far, the LED indicator lamp was out, too!). Eventually, I got the engine cool (a relative term at this point) enough to take little bits of watter through the radiator's top tank. I certainly did NOT want to put cool rater inth the engine! But eventually, I was able to put water into the radiator and it stay there. The temp gauge needle came out of hiding and all was still well. I eased it back to the house (about 15 minutes away). I moved a car from out from under the carport as I knew that where the car stopped, it would stay there for several days. When I finally turned off the engine, it was as if nothing had happened! I had raised the hood to make one last inspection before I turned it off. Leaving the hood up so the engine could convection cool overnight.

A few days later, I pulled the dipstick out to check the oil. The Castrol GTX 10W40 just looked normal. NO water in it at all. Then I later took a used radiator out of a '79 Gran Fury 360 4bbl sherriff's car to the radiator shop to get it ready to install in the '80 Newport. I also got a pair of Mr. Gasket valve cover gaskets, as I wanted to take the valve covers off to look for any signs of failure in the heads. THAT is when I saw evidence of "heat". The vc gaskets on the motor were "crispy crittered", as in "crispy". Still, no signs or smells of "heat" for extended periods of time outside fo the valve cover gaskets. So I gave the gaskets a coat of black, high-heat sealer, letting it cure overnight, and put things back together.

When I did an oil/filter change, the oil draining out acted "normal", too. No evidence of water, either! Still a bit skeptical, I did the oil change, put the re-done radiator in, put pure water in the engine for testing (as I had been told, ages ago, that water would not leak out but an anti-freeze mixture WOULD. I used the water for testing, starting with short trips in town, increasing the length and run time, progressively. After several weeks, I got enough confidence to go on a 200 mile drive. Everything worked well. So I drained out the water, which was sitll clear, and added coolant into the mix. More checks and looks and such. Everything was normal. So I began driving the car more and more until it was "daily". No evidence of combustion gasses in the coolant and no moisture in the motor oil.

When I was in college, one of my profs had a Jensen Healy as his daily driver and auto-cross car. The earlier ones were known to have water pumps which could fail unexpectedly. He told me about a time that happened about half way between Amarillo and Lubbock. He found one of those little gas stations on the edge of a cotton field and used that to get the car cooled down and continued to Lubbock and got a new pump installed. His testimony was the reason I started to use an oil "that fights viscosity breakdown", before that was in their advertising to the extent it later was. He said when he sold the car, he instructed the new owner to only use that brand and viscosity of motor oil. A month or so later, he got an angry call from the new owner about selling him a defective car. Seems the new owner took the car to a local dealer to get the oil changed. They used a brand of motor oil seemingly preferred by drag racers. The water pump had failed in afternoon traffic and the motor cooked. My prof asked if he specified the use of the brand of motor oil HE had used. No he did not. An attorney later called and my prof recounted what he had told the buyer. The buyer confirmed that. End of story.

I have pondered how that 360 survived what it did, but I know it did survive nicely. It sat there and happily idled as I tried to get it cooled down, just like everything was normal. Now, I suspected that if that motor ever was taken apart, there might be thin cracks between the valves in the combustion chamber, which would be a reason to put some aluminum heads on it, but everything is still bolted together, years later. No need to take things apart. It would not surprise me if, when all of the bolt torques are removed, the block might crumble, LOL.

I have NO doubt the brand of motor oil saved that motor's rotating assy! The fact that the motor was that hot for that long period of time, and then did not smell like it was cooked, validated their advertising claims, to me. But it was the design integrity of the LA block that was important, too.

So, we might get excited with the temp gauge needle getting just past of the centerline, but "ain't going to hurt anything" on these old Chrysler cast iron motors! No matter the number of cylinders. Quality green coolant and OEM-spec motor oils (SL-rated for the flat tappet motors!), all changed and in good condition, always help, too.

Just MY experiences,
CBODY67
 
Unlike some modern cars with their "flimsy" engine parts (to save weight), these older cast iron motors and cyl heads can take heat and live to tell about it.

Ever so true! Think that back when THESE were cast, assembled, rolled out the door, the business model for these superbly overbuilt, simple, reliable machines was a 5 year life expectancy!! Now, driving a 57 yr old machine w a 60 yr old engine in it, the appearance of car and driver alike eloquently attest to the FACT that most of these modern i-Carz and 'Droidmobiles amount to an ENORMOUS GRIFT! I appreciate the genuine mechanical improvements such as MacPherson struts, rack and pinion steering (for smaller rides), and of course Bosch Fuel Injection, which is incontestably a more efficient way of getting power from internal combustion, piston driven engines, all for a PRICE of course, but I'll stick with cast iron, carburetors, rotating distributor/Kettering ignition, simple 3-4 speed transmissions and such until my demise. For simple cost effectiveness, these mid-level technology machines have yet to be beat!

At one itme, the radiator in my '80 Newport 360 2bbl had a few pinholes in the upper tank. It was at my shadetree shop, which is a good 30 minutes on the freeeway from home. I was going to "nurse" it home one afternoon. I knew where the "water stops" would be around the loop, so I headed out with tnose in mind. By the time I got to the first one, the gauge was already near the top, so I stopped to run some water on the radiator, then carefully removed the radiator cap to add a bit of water. Ready fo rthe next stop, about 10 minutes away. Same thing. Then for the longest leg of the trip.

Ah, the drive plotted upon watering stops eh? Yes, I learned this skill while yet abiding in the Lone Star State myself. Drove a '64 El Camino powered by a 4 bbl 283 on a Hydramatic tranny which had been thoroughly trashed by a teenaged hoodlum younger than myself for nigh a year, 1981-82 in Arlington, TX, delivering the Star Telegram first to the Arlington office in bob-tails or panel vans in bundles, then running all the missed newspapers to irate customers later that morning, 6 days/week. This I did in that damned old Chevy. True Zombie machine, which I couldn't kill, but my drunkard roommate did with a tune-up from some "Toon-UPP Masturbator" type establishment, gratis. I put the nasty creature out on the highway for that. That 283 had survived DECADES of ABUSE by Texas lads, but it took a yankee to murder it via complete mechanical ignorance. Anyway....

....

When I was in college, one of my profs had a Jensen Healy as his daily driver and auto-cross car. The earlier ones were known to have water pumps which could fail unexpectedly. He told me about a time that happened about half way between Amarillo and Lubbock. He found one of those little gas stations on the edge of a cotton field and used that to get the car cooled down and continued to Lubbock and got a new pump installed. His testimony was the reason I started to use an oil "that fights viscosity breakdown", before that was in their advertising to the extent it later was. He said when he sold the car, he instructed the new owner to only use that brand and viscosity of motor oil. A month or so later, he got an angry call from the new owner about selling him a defective car. Seems the new owner took the car to a local dealer to get the oil changed. They used a brand of motor oil seemingly preferred by drag racers. The water pump had failed in afternoon traffic and the motor cooked. My prof asked if he specified the use of the brand of motor oil HE had used. No he did not. An attorney later called and my prof recounted what he had told the buyer. The buyer confirmed that. End of story.

I have pondered how that 360 survived what it did, but I know it did survive nicely. It sat there and happily idled as I tried to get it cooled down, just like everything was normal. Now, I suspected that if that motor ever was taken apart, there might be thin cracks between the valves in the combustion chamber, which would be a reason to put some aluminum heads on it, but everything is still bolted together, years later. No need to take things apart. It would not surprise me if, when all of the bolt torques are removed, the block might crumble, LOL.

Pour plenty "GLUE" into the coolant to keep it together! Done that to a few too. The stuff advertised to fix blown gaskets, cracked heads, blocks and love-lives all in One Bottle! Some of that stuff works, if used wisely.....

I have NO doubt the brand of motor oil saved that motor's rotating assy!

Ditto.

The fact that the motor was that hot for that long period of time, and then did not smell like it was cooked, validated their advertising claims, to me. But it was the design integrity of the LA block that was important, too.

Yes, no Miraculous Lube can save a badly designed engine. Mopar did very well with GOOD engine design, which is why I've come to love them. The Other Guys from the Golden Age of Detroit Iron made a few good engines too. Those 4.9-5.0 L I-6s were among the best of these for enduring GROSS abuse. My little brother made a good example of a Gross Abuser too.

So, we might get excited with the temp gauge needle getting just past of the centerline, but "ain't going to hurt anything" on these old Chrysler cast iron motors! No matter the number of cylinders. Quality green coolant and OEM-spec motor oils (SL-rated for the flat tappet motors!), all changed and in good condition, always help, too.

WISE WORDS Hoss!
 
....
Typical. It would probably move with the shroud too.
....

Truer Words haven't been typed on this subject. Shrouds are GREAT, when the engine is turning a bit, and ideally with the car moving along also. I found an XLNT shroud from the 1965 Fury, meant for the radiator I ran until last Spring (2024) when I upgraded to the 22" four row radiator designed to cool the 426 or 440 in^3 engines. I attached the same shroud to THAT, and now Gertrude stays at that 180F damn near all the time, EXCEPT when idling in traffic on a HOT day. Then, after a few prologned stops, the temp works up to 200 Fahrenheit, at which point my pusher kicks on, and the temperature then STAYS at 200 F, until the car is moving for a couple minutes, at which point temperature works back down to 180F, the rating for the RobertShaw thermostat I use.

This is why engine cooling needs to be approached from the perspective of a SYSTEM, as you of course know. Every component contributes, good or ill, and must be considered. For folks with radiators working at the upper limit of their capability, a transmission fluid cooler can be added, or a pusher fan, as two good low budget aids which pay for themselves, IFF one obtains the right device. Shrouds run a little bit higher in price.

I ran the same engine I still run in 2016 with a 6 blade straight shaft fan, sans shroud, and that arrangement, which is what that 1966 Newport came with, worked very well.
 
I would recommend adding the shroud or an electric fan or both.

Im currently running an auxiliary electric fan that I salvaged from a truck I parted out. With an aluminum radiator. It's pretty bullet proof. I will be adding a shroud with a custom fit when time allows. For the best possible performance.

The stock radiator got me by as long as the car was moving. I run these cars like they are cars not hobby toys. In doing so I have hauled motorcycle trailers down the freeway at 80 with the stock radiator. Got a little warm going over the Siskiyous on a blistering day with the stock rad but did not have to pull over. Getting stuck in traffic was an entire different story..
I added the fan because it was there and free. My rad would spray outs of a seam when the car was at 200 and be water tight when at 180. Drove two summers like that.
New rad was $135... no Brainer
It was not uncommon at all to see cars pulled over on grades and in traffic jams up until the 90's. It's not even a thing now. 25 year old cars have no problem..
Electric fan is way cheaper than a blown head gasket or a tow truck. But thought of being stuck on the side of a hot freeway motivates me..

As an aside, my sbc 70 elcamino was to the limit coming home from the Portland swapmeet in April.. I was puckered up on that one.. ordered a shroud for it when I got home.
No back up fan but it's a whole different car now, no more drama in traffic at all.
 
I'm also interested to see if it improves cooling
It would, if you can make your own shroud have half the fan blades behind/inside the opening in the shroud, and half of it out.
A thermal fan clutch might be better if the budget is tight at the moment though, the blades spin faster or freewheel depending on how hot the air coming through the radiator is, so at low speeds they can still flow a decent amount of air even with no shroud. They're also easily gotten off rockauto too.
Chrysler Corp plastic fan shrouds do seem to be more expensive than they probably should be
I just chalk it up to classic Mopar tax, much like the Toyota tax, particularly after that top gear episode with the hilux. Doesn't help that Chrysler usually sold the fewest of the big three so yeah...market isn't as big.
 
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I’ve got a ‘73 C-body shroud available for sale for $75 + shipping.
 
Thank you for all the stories and sage wisdom I enjoyed reading all that immensely. It's good to know that these motors can take the abuse, not that I'm abusing it but as I mentioned it's a bit of a departure from my experience driving my modern grocery getter and my right eyebrow did raise as the needle ticked slightly above halfway.. It sounds like, total sum, the jury is out on the shroud. It sounds like I will benefit from it but it also sounds like I don't necessarily need it. The electric fan idea intrigues me that might be something worth looking into.



Incidentally I counted the blades on my fan and it's a five blade fan I'm not sure what that means but that is what she is.



Something that makes the most sense - I've realized that if I'm "worried" I should attempt to capture "hard data" and install a water temperature gauge first to see what the engine's actually doing, I think that will be my next expenditure. Sounds like 200 is the magic number I'd rather not go beyond as that seems to expose pinholes and what not. If I find myself creeping beyond that too often then i will begin to explore my options. But it's a peace of mind to know these old motors can handle slightly austere driving conditions from time to time so I'm not scrambling to deal with this.



Is the gauge install done at a typical location that's easily identifiable or is it one of these things where you pretty much plumb it in any old place?
 
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@73Polara360 wrote: "...Is the gauge install done at a typical location that's easily identifiable or is it one of these things where you pretty much plumb it in any old place?"

Often there is an unused port near the thermostat housing that is for additional guages - it will have a pipe plug in it. The alternative is to use the location of the original idiot light's sending/sensor also near the thermostat housing.
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My old car...69 440 automatic with 22" standard radiator and shroud. Fixed fan. Ran hot.

The cooling system is a system of integrated components designed to work together. Changing any one thing from stock will affect the system design, likely negatively, from what was engineered.

NOTHING, and I mean absolutely NOTHING will make a difference in the system if the radiator is crap. If it's clogged; it won't flow enough to transfer heat from the fluid to the metal. It the fins are bent to hell it won't disperse heat.

If the radiator is crap, a shroud, electric fan, thermo fans, flex fans, higher capacity water pump or any other quick fix will not matter, as you are not integrating the system. Changes will will be a waste of time and money especially from what you've described.

So, start by yanking the radiator and send it to a reputable vintage radiator shop. ( GlenRay did mine. I give them a ***** rating) to get it cleaned out and recored if necessary. The initial price may seem high but it will be, in the long run, cheaper than throwing a bunch of unnecessary items at the problem and wasting time.

Once you get the radiator installed, then look at the other components that are SUPPOSED to be part of that application. Do not guess and deviate. If it calls for a fixed fan, use a fixed fan. If it calls for a thermo fan, use a thermo fan.

Once we did what we were supposed to do, and everything was bone stock, the car ran at 165 all damn day unless I was in Iowa Summer heat and humidity in the middle of July and in traffic. Then it crept up to 175.

You're not smarter than the original engineers. Don't try and out think or out smart them with gimmicks like a JC Whitney flex fan. Don't try and buck the system. Address the real problem.

Do what they told you to do and you'll be fine.
 
I would recommend adding the shroud or an electric fan or both.

Im currently running an auxiliary electric fan ....
Electric fan is way cheaper than a blown head gasket or a tow truck.

TRUTH!!!! I dig how you got a good aluminum radiator for such a low price too. They will cool, and the ones with big 1+" tubes do so and add volume to your cooling system also, giving it more coolant to circulate at a good temperature. My only gripe with asian made radiators is the same as with many iron products from those countries, inferior metallic purity, leading to premature failure. Barring that, those aluminum radiators make a great Budget Buy.

But thought of being stuck on the side of a hot freeway motivates me..

Jawohl! Being stuck on the roadside when it's over lethal fever temperatures is a BAD Scene.

As an aside, my sbc 70 elcamino was to the limit coming home from the Portland swapmeet in April.. I was puckered up on that one.. ordered a shroud for it when I got home.
No back up fan but it's a whole different car now, no more drama in traffic at all.
XLNT!
 
On adding a temperature gauge:

I kept the original Hot/Cold light switch in it's assigned spot, and obtained a thermostat housing with a 3/8" NPT port in the side, into which I put a good Autogauge capillary tube gauge. If you have trouble finding a ready made T-stat housing to fit this bill, you can easily make one from the following:

https://www.carid.com/dorman/engine...lCPddxrmZnCVl2HW7HR0MswAFWX-VRLXVNY38s5WucBUo

Carefully drill out that flat spot on the side and tap it to 3/8" NPT and you can have a brand new, working stat housing which you can put an extra gauge into!
Dorman-902-3012_1.jpg
 
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