TOO MUCH power steering and brakes

[Bluemike]

Hello folks; I'm working on my 68 Fury three "Fast top" (?) I never heard that before, something my insurance agent told me when she deciphered the VIN).
Anyway; Both the power steering and power brakes feel like playing a video game console, you can turn the wheel with your pinky and doesn't center by itself well.
1. Steering geometry is reasonable when measured with the basics, components are fairly new and tight. It's been 30 years but I seem to recall a guy could change the pressure/relief on the pump?? Sound familiar?
Has anyone tried installing a universal steering stabilizer (glorified shock absorber)?
2. You sneeze on the brake pedal and it'll lock up all 4 drums. I haven't even looked at them yet but wondering if anyone tackled the same problem and had success?
I suppose 45 years ago I didn't mind the super sensitive power steering as much, with my arm over my girl friend's shoulder all the time.
I'd grateful for some wisdom. Thank you

 

[TxDon]

Welcome to 1968 regarding the steering, back then road feel was not an issue to most buyers. As far as the brakes pull those drums you may have contaminated linings from leaks.

 

[CBODY67]

It was very possible to use your FINGER to turn the steering wheel back then, IF desired. Which helped those thin-section steering wheels last a while.

As for the brakes, every time I got into my '70 Skylark with power drum brakes, just moving it in the driveway, that FIRST TIME I touched the brake pedal, seemed like I was "hungry for steering wheel", or was trying to get my two front teeth knocked out. But after I drove it a bit, I got used to that sensitivity. Compared the '77 Camaro that I drove most of the time back then, with power front disc brakes. Just had to mentally re-program when getting into the power drum brake car! But Chryslers were not that touchy, in comparison.

Back then, too, if somebody was used to driving a manual brake car, getting into a "nice car" with power brakes took some getting used to.

Remember, too, that part of driving a luxury car back then was how LITTLE effort it took to do that. With "power steering and power brakes" being a part of that mix ("luxury options"). The same power steering and brakes that went on a Chrysler were usually very similar to what Plymouth and Dodge used, so they felt similar. BTAIM

On the brakes, make sure the wheel cylinders are not leaking or have contaminate the brake linings. Otherwise, make sure the inside of the brake drums are smooth and not otherwise, so they don't grab a bit when the brakes are applied. If that sensitivity might decrease after the first few brake applications, then it might be a thin layer of surface rust on the drums, that is worn away with use.

As you "guide" the car with the inner two fingers of either hand, notice how crisp, flat, and easy the handling is. NO "full hands" needed here! Unlike modern "Euro-influenced" vehicles. BUT there is a flow control valve in the pump that might be a bit over-active, too. IF the pump is not original to the car, it's very possible that the rebuilder swapped the valves, especially if it was a generic rebuilder. Perhaps others have some tricks in this area?

On the GM-Saginaw pumps, there is a "fitting" on the pump which has a drilled orifice in it, which governs boost a bit. With a too-large orifice, you can breathe on the steering wheel and it will turn, for example. GM had about five different orifices in the middle 1960s. But you should not have a Saginaw pump on your car, but Chrysler had something similar in ther pumps.

The "FastTop", model "23" VIN-designation, is the Fast Back roofline on the 2-dr hardtops. As the normal 2-dr hardtops had normal rooflines on them, with thinner rear pillars.

Hope this might help,
CBODY67

 

[Big_John]

Hello folks; I'm working on my 68 Fury three "Fast top" (?) I never heard that before, something my insurance agent told me when she deciphered the VIN).
Anyway; Both the power steering and power brakes feel like playing a video game console, you can turn the wheel with your pinky and doesn't center by itself well.
1. Steering geometry is reasonable when measured with the basics, components are fairly new and tight. It's been 30 years but I seem to recall a guy could change the pressure/relief on the pump?? Sound familiar?
Has anyone tried installing a universal steering stabilizer (glorified shock absorber)?
2. You sneeze on the brake pedal and it'll lock up all 4 drums. I haven't even looked at them yet but wondering if anyone tackled the same problem and had success?
I suppose 45 years ago I didn't mind the super sensitive power steering as much, with my arm over my girl friend's shoulder all the time.
I'd grateful for some wisdom. Thank you

You can have the steering box rebuilt and reworked to provide more road feel. Firm Feel Steering Box Rebuilds C-Body I have a Stage II box in my '70 300, although most would stay with the Stage I version. It does feel better going down the road, but it took some getting used to as I've been driving these cars all my life. Adding as much caster to the steering alignment may help too.

The brakes are just a matter of getting used to... This is the way these cars were built and you're never going to have them drive, stop, and/or turn as well as a new car.

 

[CBODY67]

(camber, not caster?)

 

[Big_John]

(camber, not caster?)

Oops... Corrected

Thanks!

 

[mrfury68]

Remember, too, that part of driving a luxury car back then was how LITTLE effort it took to do that. With "power steering and power brakes" being a part of that mix ("luxury options"). The same power steering and brakes that went on a Chrysler were usually very similar to what Plymouth and Dodge used, so they felt similar. BTAIM

This was always the advantage to driving a C-body. You had the same research, development & engineering as the flagship model Chryslers. After I rebuilt my front suspension, complete with remanufactured steering gear, my friend who has been a Chrysler mechanic since the mid seventies aligned it and then test drove it. He said he had forgotten how nice these cars drove when they were new. As for your brakes, go over your system completely, inspecting every aspect of it. When these systems are working properly they work well. Not like a late model 4 wheel disc with ABS, but as good as they did when they were new. If you haven't driven one of these cars in awhile, or ever, it does take some getting used to. But man are they fun to drive!

 

[Bluemike]

It was very possible to use your FINGER to turn the steering wheel back then, IF desired. Which helped those thin-section steering wheels last a while.

As for the brakes, every time I got into my '70 Skylark with power drum brakes, just moving it in the driveway, that FIRST TIME I touched the brake pedal, seemed like I was "hungry for steering wheel", or was trying to get my two front teeth knocked out. But after I drove it a bit, I got used to that sensitivity. Compared the '77 Camaro that I drove most of the time back then, with power front disc brakes. Just had to mentally re-program when getting into the power drum brake car! But Chryslers were not that touchy, in comparison.

Back then, too, if somebody was used to driving a manual brake car, getting into a "nice car" with power brakes took some getting used to.

Remember, too, that part of driving a luxury car back then was how LITTLE effort it took to do that. With "power steering and power brakes" being a part of that mix ("luxury options"). The same power steering and brakes that went on a Chrysler were usually very similar to what Plymouth and Dodge used, so they felt similar. BTAIM

On the brakes, make sure the wheel cylinders are not leaking or have contaminate the brake linings. Otherwise, make sure the inside of the brake drums are smooth and not otherwise, so they don't grab a bit when the brakes are applied. If that sensitivity might decrease after the first few brake applications, then it might be a thin layer of surface rust on the drums, that is worn away with use.

As you "guide" the car with the inner two fingers of either hand, notice how crisp, flat, and easy the handling is. NO "full hands" needed here! Unlike modern "Euro-influenced" vehicles. BUT there is a flow control valve in the pump that might be a bit over-active, too. IF the pump is not original to the car, it's very possible that the rebuilder swapped the valves, especially if it was a generic rebuilder. Perhaps others have some tricks in this area?

On the GM-Saginaw pumps, there is a "fitting" on the pump which has a drilled orifice in it, which governs boost a bit. With a too-large orifice, you can breathe on the steering wheel and it will turn, for example. GM had about five different orifices in the middle 1960s. But you should not have a Saginaw pump on your car, but Chrysler had something similar in ther pumps.

The "FastTop", model "23" VIN-designation, is the Fast Back roofline on the 2-dr hardtops. As the normal 2-dr hardtops had normal rooflines on them, with thinner rear pillars.

Hope this might help,
CBODY67

Good info, thank you. I drove my 66 coronet back in the day (1975), first time I drove the old man's Polara was quite a shock; first time on radials, first time power steering and power discs. My friends had a good laugh watching me drive away. Live and learn

 

[Boydsdodge]

I would start with an alignment with 1/4 degree Neg camber, as much positive caster you can get 3 degrees would be great. That will help the steering feel firmer and return to centre.
On brakes, start with checking all the shoes for fluids on surface.

 

[saforwardlook]

Oops... Corrected

Thanks!

I think you were correct the first time unless I am missing something?

 

[Big_John]

I think you were correct the first time unless I am missing something?

I went back and edited it to correct.

 

[Bluemike]

Welcome to 1968 regarding the steering, back then road feel was not an issue to most buyers. As far as the brakes pull those drums you may have contaminated linings from leaks.

Welcome to 1968 regarding the steering, back then road feel was not an issue to most buyers. As far as the brakes pull those drums you may have contaminated linings from leaks.

Great advice, thank you.

Welcome to 1968 regarding the steering, back then road feel was not an issue to most buyers. As far as the brakes pull those drums you may have contaminated linings from leaks.

Great advice, thank you. I'll pull those drums ASAP. TX Don's wagon is what I looked for 20+ years, even the good ones were put in demo races, FOOLS

 

[HWYCRZR]

Yes the ‘68s have very light steering. 1/2 of the steering issues can relate to worn out suspension bushings as a little free play goes a long way in wandering steering. Also a tight idler arm and steering link is important. Get rid of any slop from the pitman arm to your tires first. Then go after any steering gear adjustment.
A service manual for your car is a must. If you are somewhat mechanical it will be worth its weight in gold. Some manuals can be found for free on
Service Manuals – MyMopar
It looks like they have both the service and parts manual for 68 Plymouth. Also original paper copies can be found frequently on e-bay.

 

[CBODY67]

ONE thing that MUST be considered and understood is that back when power steering and power brakes were NOT on everything, they were considered to be "LUXURY options" . . . not "everyday options" or even standard equipment on every vehicle, back then.

In those 1950s and later times, "Luxury" was measured not in quietness or smoothness only, but also in how much effort it did NOT take to operate the vehicle. Which means "steering and brakes" to almost everybody back then. Most manual steering systems require over 5 turns lock to lock and for a panic stop, a good bit of leg strength was needed. Chrysler (and most GM) power steering, by comparison, took only 3.5 turns to go side to side. Only "toe pressure" rather than Foot/leg pressure for the power brakes. As BOTH operations could happen quicker, they were also considered to be "safety features", too.

Customers ALSO knew these things back then, so they compensated in THEIR actions in operating the vehices, as to how much effort was needed and used.

Yes, power brakes COULD be touchy if you were not used to them. Not everybody could adjust to them, which resulted in some smalloer-town dealers (with then-elderly customers) would order power steering and not power brakes on vehicles, where they were options and not standard. Then, when the vehicles became used cars and their new customer wanted power brakes, there were OEM accessory kits to install power brakes where they were not factory-installed.

"Luxury" back then also meant "isolation", which could mean less "kickback" of the steering wheel and less road feel, which was not really important on the new Interstates of the era, back then. Only "performance drivers" worried about such things, as a gauge of how hard they were cornering. But these things seemed to become marketing issues, "Euro feel", so road feel was artificially introduced for "higher effort" power steering. "One hand" rather than "two fingers".

By observation, the lighter-effort power steering also meant you had to pay attendtion to what you were doing and desired to steering the vehicle. With both the faster ratio and easier effort, easy to get "off track". So, pay attention!

There were also different alignment Caster settings for power steering and non-power steering vehicles, back then. With the power assist of power steering, more caster could be used (usually 3/4 - 1 degree) for better high speed stability and no worries about possible increased effort. Manual steering went the other direction, with similar numbers on the negative caster side, for less effort. Not sure if those negative numbers really affected things, but less effort was the main orientation.

In the realm of power steering, in cornering, you learned to feel lateral g-forces with your glutes rather than how much the steering wheel was resisting being turned. Once you got keyed-in on that and also tire squeal, you soon learned what was going on and how much farther you could go. Putting the front tire pressure up 2psi from the rear pressure (in the 30-32 psi range for the fronts, back then), that helped with steering response and made tire squeal happen a bit later, for "more enjoyment".

DO make sure the power steering gear is correctly adjusted, per FSM. DO make sure there are no fluids on the brake linings and they are correctly adjusted. DO make sure all of the front end suspension items are not worn and need replacing with OEM-quality items. Not to forget the rear suspension rubber bushings and such! If everything is good, you can either get used to driving with less effort or spend a chunk of change for a high-quality reman steering gear from one of the noted rebuilders on this forum, with modifications for "more effort" in the process. Or spend more money for a later-model gear kit set-up from Borgeson. But to me, "low effort" goes with the territory as that is what I grew up with and learned to enjoy very much.

Respectfully,
CBODY67

 

[Bluemike]

So....What size is the bolt for the harmonic balancer??? I have a 1 1/4" socket on it, feels pretty loose. Si loose in fast I put a dime into one of the lands of the head and still??? That would be epic to strip this one!!

 

[Mr357M]

Hello folks; I'm working on my 68 Fury three "Fast top" (?) I never heard that before, something my insurance agent told me when she deciphered the VIN).
Anyway; Both the power steering and power brakes feel like playing a video game console, you can turn the wheel with your pinky and doesn't center by itself well.
1. Steering geometry is reasonable when measured with the basics, components are fairly new and tight. It's been 30 years but I seem to recall a guy could change the pressure/relief on the pump?? Sound familiar?
Has anyone tried installing a universal steering stabilizer (glorified shock absorber)?
2. You sneeze on the brake pedal and it'll lock up all 4 drums. I haven't even looked at them yet but wondering if anyone tackled the same problem and had success?
I suppose 45 years ago I didn't mind the super sensitive power steering as much, with my arm over my girl friend's shoulder all the time.
I'd grateful for some wisdom. Thank you

I’d love to have this kind of light steering wheel on my 73 Imperial. Actually I’ve just bought a new power steering pump looking forward to have a lighter steering wheel.
My car is at the repair shop for checking the drums locking as I gently touch the brake pedal. I hope I’ll have some update soon.

 

[Bluemike]

Got awesome advice on the TOO MUCH P.S. and brakes. Everything was spot on doing alignment, except adjusting caster to about 3 degrees which made all the difference! Thank you for your replies. Yes, the brake shoes were contaminated, and just getting used to driving a 55 year old car.

 

[stubs300]

Oops... Corrected

Thanks!

I went back and edited it to correct.

You did a piss poor job changing it or someone else changed it back to caster behind your back! Just sayin

Adding as much caster to the steering alignment may help too.