commando1
Old Man with a Hat
OK, I'll budget $100k and hope there's something left over.
For Sale Very Sought After Forward Look Car - Very Nice Restoration Candidate
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BigFury
Well-Known Member
Love that car. Given the above estimates of restoration costs (50k) what does a numbers matching '58 hemi New Yorker sell for on the market in #2 condition? I hope someone saves it before the dude with the '34 Ford coupe comes along to yank the 392.
rexus31
Senior Member
For a minute Steve, I thought this was your '69 Road Runner and was excited to see one of your projects coming along. Then I remembered you sold it a while back.
I agree 100% with what you said. I couldn't fathom taking on a project like this and cutting corners, but that's just me. In my eyes, a car like this needs to be as close to perfect as possible if I were to restore/own it. I would not want the shoulda, woulda, coulda feeling once the car was done; I'd hate it. I guess my old man's mantra of "If you're going to do something, you may as well do it right" is ingrained in my head. To do this car right is going to take around $80K including purchase price if your can get a decent deal on it.
On another note, how's your paint and body guy's schedule looking these days? I'm getting close to tearing the GTO apart and if he's got a space available, I'd like to get a quote. At bare minimum, I know it is going to need front floors and a trunk but I have a feeling there is some shoddy bodywork underneath from the previous owner. Judging by the trunk, the guy that did the prior paint and body liked fiberglass. It scares me to think what's underneath.
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bluefury361
Old Man with a Hat
[QUOTE="saforwardlook, I personally think Will is a little low for a #2 car, but then what constitutes #2 is probably debateable too. So this is about the best I can do................
QUOTE]
I think your on the mark for a full blown, frame off restro to #1 condition Steve.
I was being conservative estimating a #2 condition body on refurb. Basic mechanical, body and good, (OEM type), paint, chrome as needed and a full interior. I could get it done at the 25K mark using my resources and doing the work myself.
It's been my experience that there is no perfect car, no matter how hard one tries. and the #1 condition cars I see are typically "over restored", beyond factory or showroom condition. The factory could not afford to build to those standards.
That being said, this car deserves the best it can receive. I hope it doesn't end up a "abandoned project".
QUOTE]I think your on the mark for a full blown, frame off restro to #1 condition Steve.
I was being conservative estimating a #2 condition body on refurb. Basic mechanical, body and good, (OEM type), paint, chrome as needed and a full interior. I could get it done at the 25K mark using my resources and doing the work myself.
It's been my experience that there is no perfect car, no matter how hard one tries. and the #1 condition cars I see are typically "over restored", beyond factory or showroom condition. The factory could not afford to build to those standards.
That being said, this car deserves the best it can receive. I hope it doesn't end up a "abandoned project".
There is definitely a fair variance in people's views of what constitutes a #2 vehicle, and I fully respect that. I also realize that spending a lot to restore this car would not make sense financially but for me, I am really not too concerned about the cost as much as I am about the condition of the car and being sure I will like it when it is done, since I will not be taking any of them with me when I go and don't plan to sell my favorites. But you are one of those rare guys that after having spent a lot of time and money in restoring a car, you actually drive them everywhere, and often - which is something I can't quite do yet (but I am getting a lot of pressure from Carsten in that regard)!
Given your estimate, which tends to agree with mine, that is why I strongly believe this car is very likely to go to Sweden where there are guys with deep pockets to restore this car to a full #1 condition, and many have been done over there that are spectacular.
My body/paint guy is actually getting caught up and by the end of this year will be in a good position to consider doing your GTO. He also has some guys waiting for him, but you should bring your GTO by my place and he can take a good look at it. He will know pretty quickly just what it will need and his metal work is the best. But figure in the price range I mentioned above given what you are describing in terms of rust. It helps that GM cars like yours do have some good reproduction panels to work with as needed.
This New Yorker at issue would not need a donor car it seems to me, and even then, I believe even this Windsor is much too nice to tear up. It should also be restored to a level preferred by its owner and available funds. It is already very nice it appears from the one photo.
commando1
Old Man with a Hat
Let me elaborate further when I stated "#2+"
I consider just about all these $75k+ so called Collector Quality Show Cars going through Mecum to be #2's. Ever crawl under them during the inspection hours?
I consider just about all these $75k+ so called Collector Quality Show Cars going through Mecum to be #2's. Ever crawl under them during the inspection hours?
You need a mechanical service guy too? Room and board? I don't snore or fart and don't eat much either (all lies). I wouldn't take up much space (boldfaced lie, I'm outa room here)... and would be cheap labor (not likely). I promise not to pester you about all your knowledge and experiences (Ha, do you believe that?).Interesting question Stan. I have never really tried to do a #2 restoration - I like these cars so much, I like to see them showroom. If I had to skimp, I might not chrome everything that needs it and leave some very slight pits I guess, not replace the windshield if it looks pretty good, maybe not go completely through the engine given it has 89K on it, and these 392s are good for a lot more miles before needing complete rebuilding, this one already has had the brakes gone through, and maybe use some less than the best paint, and settle for something less than perfect body work/paint, etc. But I would hate the car when I was done. I tend to be a perfectionist, and it has to be right and like new for me to like it (but I wouldn't drive it much either then). There is no perfect solution. To do it right would require a $12-$14K body work + paint job based on my past cars in today's prices and labor hours involved, and the body has to be straight and flat - no waves - it has to be a virtually perfect mirror. My body guy is on site at my shop 4 days/week (with 2 of those days for me and the rest for himself on his cars and maybe one customer the other two days), and he is a perfectionist - just what I want and the body/paint work he does is in the price range above when he is done. Here are a couple photos of a generally tough to do 1969 Roadrunner that he did for a friend of his recently (any distorsions in the reflections are due to the many curves on these bodies and the various character lines/intersections, etc. rather than issues with the bodywork. A fuselage C body would be a great mirror due to its lack of undulating curves down the sides lengthwise, unlike a Roadrunner).
View attachment 112301 View attachment 112302 View attachment 112303
I would redo the whole interior (seats, door panels, carpet, headliner, chrome trim inside) and take the instrument panel completely out of the car and go through everything - new dashpad from RD Autoline ($600) and go through all the instruments and redo all the chrome on the dash and replace the instrument cluster lenses (note the stress lines on those plastic lenses due to age) and have the radio gone through and make sure all the wiring is right and all the electrical components are in good shape, etc. I would rebuild the torqueflite myself (and at 89K it would probably only need a rebuild kit and probably a new drive sleeve and a new rebuilt torque converter). Suspension would have to be rebuilt, new axle bearings/seals, etc. And a lot of chrome work is needed on these cars, an ever increasing proposition - maybe on the order of $8K for that alone. And tons of detailing. For me, all these expenses would probably exceed $40 - $45K as my best estimate, doing all the mechanical work myself (I would farm out the seat covers and door panels though, probably to SMS) and leaving all the body work (proper welding of any metal patch panels with only the slightest amount of filler possible and then there is a quality primer and probably 2 stage quality paint) to my body and paint guy. So I would be money ahead probably trying to find one already done, but I rarely like hardly any of the restored cars because I never know how well they were really done, and usually they have lots of issues every time. I guess I like restoring my own cars even more than driving them to be honest, so probably I am not the best guy to estimate the cost for a #2 car. I personally think Will is a little low for a #2 car, but then what constitutes #2 is probably debateable too. So this is about the best I can do................
Maybe my friend Scott (rexus31) can chime in as he also likes his cars very nice and he has been through this with his 1965 red Chrysler 300 convertible since he is pretty much like me in what a car needs to be like.
bluefury361
Old Man with a Hat
I think your being generous Stan. I'd place most of those auction cars at 3+ condition. I consider a correctly restored show car that's driven as a #2.
Most "nice" cars seen at shows are #3+.
Ha Ha. Yeah, I have plenty of room for more cars and people, but the people that have been to my place know that is a real lie! I don't know any "car guy" that has extra room! But you are always welcome to visit! And there are houses in my area with big plots of land, but unfortunately, the housing prices in California are not the same as in Nebraska or Florida. Otherwise, I would have plenty of space.
fury fan
Senior Member
Yeah, those taillight lenses are a step backward from 57. They look like an afterthought.
Agreed, but at some point you'll want to wash the bugs and dirt off? That's why I thought about a shine-appropriate clearcoat that wouldn't be noticeable. And that interior is where I would've put those $1000 wheels and tires.
Way too good for that. No 50s 2dr car in that condition should ever become a donor, not even to a Letter.
fc7_plumcrazy
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you can still wash off the bugs and dirt easily.
It works. Trust me I have a lot of experience with patina.
Out of my collection nine Mopars currently have original paint
I agree I wouldn't have touched the wheels just bought new tires
Carsten
cm23uoc
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I just don't dig that powdercoating craze.
Old rims need Filler and paint at best, that's it and already overrestored as such steelies only came with black paint right on the bare metal from the factory.
Old rims need Filler and paint at best, that's it and already overrestored as such steelies only came with black paint right on the bare metal from the factory.
70bigblockdodge
Old Man with a Hat
Good job Stan, Steve's head just exploded.
Why is this 58 NY valued higher than a same year 300 Steve?
bluefury361
Old Man with a Hat
just survivor numbers. Both cars are with similar options, just less of the New Yorkers.
oh I was getting the impression it was more desirable than the 300 for some reason
bluefury361
Old Man with a Hat
I find powder coating as a blessing. Especally for a vehicle that will be driven. Most OEM shades and textures can be duplicated and the ease of maintaince is greatly improved.
What Will said.............
When you go to car shows that highlight Chrysler products, it is very common to see 300 letter cars. If I went to a Mopar centered show or any show for that matter, and saw this New Yorker it would be very interesting and neat to see as it is, or showroom, or anywhere in between. They are just so rare that people would flock to the New Yorker and generally ignore the letter cars by comparison.
In general though, a letter car is still worth more than a New Yorker by about $10 -$20K in the same condition, but some people might pay more for this car due to its rarity and the interest it generates.
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tbm3fan
Old Man with a Hat
Wow, all this discussion about what constitutes a #1 or #2 car. I especially don't see eye to eye as to what a #1 is as describe by any number of guides. To me, the only true #1, is a car off the line and then sealed up tightly. It therefore comes as designed from the factory with all the little flaws and imperfections that one saw on the assembly line at the time. Making something 100% perfect is only possible if the car was hand built/ hand fitted and of course no manufacturer is going to do that. So I think there should be a clear distinction between a #1 car, very rare based on my description, and then a show car. To me it sounds more like saforwardlook is describing a show New Yorker. As for a #2 car it would have to have some flaws and wear by description.
Several years ago there was someone restoring a 1965 F100 back to "original" condition on my Ford forum. Pretty soon it became obvious that "original" is in the eye of the beholder. He was making sure every single panel gap was exact and if not would weld in steel to make them all exactly perfect. The paint was done to a perfect mirror finish. He even used filler on the oil bath air cleaner to make sure it was perfectly flat for the mirror finish paint. No F100, or for that matter Sweptline truck, ever came off the line in anything close to perfect condition. They were working trucks. Naturally the two of us had disagreements about the word "original" which he stood by and which I said had no connection at all. This F100 was purely show in stock condition but still show. It is the type of vehicle I pass by at a show the moment I see perfect paint not to mention it isn't driven which means how the hell is that fun.
Several years ago there was someone restoring a 1965 F100 back to "original" condition on my Ford forum. Pretty soon it became obvious that "original" is in the eye of the beholder. He was making sure every single panel gap was exact and if not would weld in steel to make them all exactly perfect. The paint was done to a perfect mirror finish. He even used filler on the oil bath air cleaner to make sure it was perfectly flat for the mirror finish paint. No F100, or for that matter Sweptline truck, ever came off the line in anything close to perfect condition. They were working trucks. Naturally the two of us had disagreements about the word "original" which he stood by and which I said had no connection at all. This F100 was purely show in stock condition but still show. It is the type of vehicle I pass by at a show the moment I see perfect paint not to mention it isn't driven which means how the hell is that fun.
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