thethee
Senior Member
This is wild:
Voyager 1 and 2 still alive!!!! 38,000 mph!
- Thread starter Turboomni
- Start date
Fratzog
Old Man with a Hat
While mankind is busy peering into the abyss there is increasing evidence that we may not be alone and perhaps already being visited. Recently a serious scientific inquiry has been initiated called the Galileo Project to begin seriously looking into this issue.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtDWoZ5lLINstvJvALwKYXA
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtDWoZ5lLINstvJvALwKYXA
thanks @Fratzog
Are we alone? A fascinating question -- two angles get the debate. Religion and science.
I aint goin' anywhere near religion. third rail .. don't belong here as a debate topic and I am sure would get modded outta here lickety-split.
Let me rant on the science for bit though-- cuz that's what egg-head, nerds like me do
Science (and math?) tells me this. In this galaxy alone (and there are multiple hundreds of billions of galaxies in this Universe), there are 100's of billions of stars (Suns, of various colors, sizes, just like ours).
Our efforts (great work, but the really eagle-eyed stuff like JWST is coming on line soon, and we are gonna be amazed I predict) to find planets would suggest, in THIS galaxy alone and NOT counting the moons around those planets, there may be 10X the number of planets.
Boil all that math down -- through some statistics/probabilities/science that are the same ones we used to put the V'gers, Webb, Hubble, this computer, our cell phones, Hellcat Mopars, etc, into service -- there could be multiple billions of "places" in their Sun's "goldilock's zone"
A "place: (planet, moon, etc) where liquid water could exist on the surface is potentially a "place" where "life" as we know it could exist (Earth is in our star's goldilocks zone).
But (ignoring "life" unlike what we know - there could be non-carbon life with spaceships), do these life forms exist today as microbes, or do they have warp drive?.
OR ...
have some capable-of-visiting other planets "civilizations" come and gone (imagine a big rock, like 66M years ago, hit us in 1920 -- we'd be "gone" for millions of years perhaps without a trace we existed unless somebody landed here after it happened) in the 14 billion years the Universe has been here?
Off the soap box and make my point.
Have we been visited by "others"? Probably. But i haven't seenyet/don't understand well enough the probability factors that constitute "proof".
Are there things we can see/have learned that suggest we aint alone? Yup .. a crap-ton of stuff (the UAP (e.g., UFO's) and "Oumuamua" (e.g., naturally occuring objects previously unidentified) stuff @Fratzog referenced, pure unadulterated, egg-head math including the "multi-verse" and quantum theory, etc) says that "beings" of superior technical/meta-physical (vs. humans) capability must exist -- even if we can't conclusively prove it yet (e.g, the Vulcans land in Montana in 2063).
Hope we can prove it in my kids' lifetimes.
UPDATE: the Galileo project people are NOT considering "exotic" physics, and apparently are not looking back at things like aliens crashing in Roswell (source - Galileo Project Scope):
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Probably not. Somewhere I read (excuse me for the vague reference) that any visit by other civilisations would have constituted a huge effort on their part, no matter how technically advanced they might have been. A touch-and-go visit, as referred to in many sci-fi stories, is rather unlikely under such circumstances. Once you've gone to such extremes, you will put your boot on the ground. So IF there was a visit, it must have left clear traces, not those elusive hints some people cling to.
Probability works against this idea.
@PeugFra
id enjoy a vigorous debate as you've clearly thought about it.
extending my argument, IF "they" been here, "evidence" remains and is visible everywhere .. IN the "math".
like the Jodie Foster character said in "Contact" when the Senator asked "Why didnt the machine aliens speak English?"
IF "they" (aliens) are here, only thing we may have in common is we all came from this Universe.
a quantum theory of gravity ... my "bet" is along that information road ...gotta see where the Galilleo Project is on all that stuff .
ill go one step further out on the limb and retire from this topic ... everything that was/is/ever will be, in this universe, is STILL here. "information" cannot be created nor destroyed. i
if one wants to wanna nerd out on that juicy topic, check out the "The Holographic Universe" theories in vogue now.
soon (perhaps) our "math" will explain it all .. or more of it than human minds can right now. until then .....
id enjoy a vigorous debate as you've clearly thought about it
.extending my argument, IF "they" been here, "evidence" remains and is visible everywhere .. IN the "math".
like the Jodie Foster character said in "Contact" when the Senator asked "Why didnt the machine aliens speak English?"
IF "they" (aliens) are here, only thing we may have in common is we all came from this Universe.
a quantum theory of gravity ... my "bet" is along that information road ...gotta see where the Galilleo Project is on all that stuff .
ill go one step further out on the limb and retire from this topic ... everything that was/is/ever will be, in this universe, is STILL here. "information" cannot be created nor destroyed. i
if one wants to wanna nerd out on that juicy topic, check out the "The Holographic Universe" theories in vogue now.
soon (perhaps) our "math" will explain it all .. or more of it than human minds can right now. until then .....
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Our knowledge about this information is very limited. We are forced to observe celestial objects like they existed in the past. We see the Sun like she was 8 minutes ago, the Pleiades, on the skirts of the our Local Bubble, like they were about 440 years ago, the Andromeda Galaxy, our sister galaxy, like she was 2.5 million years ago and so on.
We cannot know about the present condition of the universe apart from what is happening on planet Earth. So how we could physically observe the future of planet Earth and of the Universe as a whole, is beyond me.
The information about past cosmic events is still there, it just depends on your location at what point in time you are able to observe them. How and when we could observe the future, given that information is out there, I just don't know.
3175375
Senior Member
Certain points of what can occur in the future can be predicted.
agree with everything you said. will add one thing.
we dont "know" a great many things. will we learn more in time? of course. tons of hypotheses to test for use on the information road ahead.
ancient humans (heck, maybe some people today somewhere) believed throwing rocks at the eclipsing sun (literally, chanting and throwing stones at the sky) would scare away the creature that was eating the sun, creating darkness and fear.
And of course, the rock throwing /chanting seemed to work ...in just a few minutes the interloper eating the sun was chased off, and the world was OK again.
were they stupid"? I emphatically argue NO. They just didn't know something ... yet.
Couple centuries from now (maybe less?), to those future people THEN, WE will look like those ancient rock throwers do to us today regarding this question and corrolaries: Are we alone? How did we even get here? How come we can't interact with, or even see, 95% of stuff (dark matter and dark energy) we "share" this Universe with? Is the Universe holographic, with nothing new created/anything lost since the "Big Bang"?
We aint "stupid" either but so far the smartest among us have more questions than answers on stuff. But having those questions, and these giant brains, is what keeps us moving (forward, backward, to whatever is waiting on us)
We WILL learn more... shoot, we just sent $10B high-tech machine out to L2 to help us learn more. Same way, 500 years ago, a couple of tubes made outta wood, paper, copper, and glass helped (Galileo's' "high-tech", 15 power, telescope) humans confirm a hypothesis nothing was "eating" the eclipsing sun. It was just the Universe doing its thing.
In addition to other cool stuff, we are gonna collect evidence about the places where the conditions that exist HERE may be present. With that evidence, or absent finding any useful, we are gonna be smarter.
Let's watch what happens next year or so with JWST best-ever IR eyesight .. see what new stuff we can figure out with new stuff we didn't previously know/couldn't yet confirm.
Or, lets throw some rocks at the sky .. see if that makes ET show himself.
first JWST pics today 2/11.
source (one of many out there today): Behold the 1st images from NASA's James Webb Space Telescope!
advertised as nowhere near what we are gonna see ... makes sense since it only launched not even couple months ago .. when Webb is up and going after all the preparation.
I thought at first it was a region of space, like a the famous Hubble deep field pic
but its not, but rather a mosaic of pictures taken of a single star by each of the Webb mirror sections. Same picture, over and over, of same star, arranged like a single shot.
more to come.
source (one of many out there today): Behold the 1st images from NASA's James Webb Space Telescope!
advertised as nowhere near what we are gonna see ... makes sense since it only launched not even couple months ago .. when Webb is up and going after all the preparation.
I thought at first it was a region of space, like a the famous Hubble deep field pic
but its not, but rather a mosaic of pictures taken of a single star by each of the Webb mirror sections. Same picture, over and over, of same star, arranged like a single shot.
more to come.
Fratzog
Old Man with a Hat
Given the confirmation of the UAP phenomena by your government, ET may have already shown himself. The data has been suppressed by your government however recent leaks have forced their hand with a Congressional mandate to investigate. Cooperation is mixed, with the some branches of the miltitary (Navy) more forthcoming than others (Airforce). Attached is a discussion between two physicists reviewing the evidence and its implications.
a lot to chew on but that was fascinating. i had to give it an hour of my vacation day. thanks.
Never heard of Weinstein or Puthoff. Obviously brilliant, and much like others of their intellectual/physics capability. And Witten .. father and son -- never heard of them either so I have some home work this weekend.
First reaction is a place I return to in this thread. We need a theory of gravity. Or like Weinstein said in the piece: "we need to do to Einstein, what Einstein did to Newton".
Newtons classical mechanics (how "big" things behave in the universe) is NOT wrong .. its brilliant. But it was incomplete per Einstein general relatively work. Reminds me of what Russell Crowe's character (John Nash) in a the movie Beautiful Mind, when he said (paraphrase) "Adam Smith needs revision".
Both guys were right, and both theories together made humans more right in describing what we observe AND how the V'gers that started this thread even could do what they did/are doing right now - giving us stuff to marvel about.
Neither guy, however, got quantum (behavior of small things like atoms) observations "right" -- that's were all the cutting edge action is 300 years after Newton. General relativity is missing some stuff ..... but Nobels get handed out every year as folks find more potential incomplete puzzle pieces.
The passage of time, or just plain ole smarter people building on smart peoples' work before them, reveals NEW insights. We learned that throwing rocks at the sky could NOT stop an eclipse.
Similarly, we will learn -- probably -- that things in general relativity, quantum theory, string theory, etc. that we call "constants" are really "variables". And if so, then we may learn that these variables can in fact be "manipulated".
Extend that logic and you might get warp drives and transporters -- stuff that looks like science fiction to us today.
Same way if you asked Robert E Lee or US Grant back in 1860 could they conceive of technology (a fusion weapon - "huh"?!) that, dropped from a plane ("a metal bird that flies?! - whah?!"), that could kill 100,000 people in 10 seconds?
Less than 100 years later, we had ALL that technology and much more.
Imagine -- i try all the time -- what groovy things we will know/be able to do in a mere 50 years from now.
"Our" government
.
Do "they" know more than they tell us. Or course. Always have. Always will. Are they hiding "ET" from us? Not a chance!
In a universe (ignore the multi-verse) 14 billion years old, could something/someone "out there" have figured out, for example, quantum gravity and then invented warp drive using "flying saucers", and visited/visits backwater planets like ours all the time? Sure!
Lets assume further they knew what we know now .. a billion years ago! They'd probably be further along the technical path than we are now -- and therefore now using fantastical machines, moving through inter-dimensional time and space - as easily as we move around this planet in our cars, boats, trains, and planes.
"Today", despite their brilliance, the reason our real smart people -- Weinsteins, Puthoffs, Einsteins, Hawkings, Heisenbergs, Paulings, et. al.,-- get/got "infinities" in their equations is because there is something (Weinstein in Fratzog's piece called it "fundamental physics") they STILL don't yet know.
Our government, any government, anybody .. on this planet .. is NOT hiding "ET" from us any more than they are hiding fundamental physics from us. We are not smart enough. And something like that .. it'll get out.
A gravity defying aircraft? they ain't hiding that either.
BUT most definitely there are "secret projects" in belly of DARPA, or Boeing, MIT, or wherever else smart folks work on exotic projects, that would look like science fiction to any of us outside that loop (e.g., "Manhattan Project", stealth technology, heck even radar 100 years ago, are examples of dozens of BIG things we learn about after the work is done)
But again, ET being hidden from us BY the federales or anybody? Nope- I do not think so. ET itself hiding from us because it thinks that we are "dumb" compared them? Probably.
IMHO
Good piece Fratzog .. I have weekend homework!
Never heard of Weinstein or Puthoff. Obviously brilliant, and much like others of their intellectual/physics capability. And Witten .. father and son -- never heard of them either so I have some home work this weekend.
First reaction is a place I return to in this thread. We need a theory of gravity. Or like Weinstein said in the piece: "we need to do to Einstein, what Einstein did to Newton".
Newtons classical mechanics (how "big" things behave in the universe) is NOT wrong .. its brilliant. But it was incomplete per Einstein general relatively work. Reminds me of what Russell Crowe's character (John Nash) in a the movie Beautiful Mind, when he said (paraphrase) "Adam Smith needs revision".
Newton called gravity a force that attracts objects with mass to each other. 200 years later Einstein in general relativity said, naw, massive objects in free fall follow curvatures in the "fabric" he called "space-time", with the "depth" such curvatures in space-time created in proportion to the masses of the objects. Both guys were right, and both theories together made humans more right in describing what we observe AND how the V'gers that started this thread even could do what they did/are doing right now - giving us stuff to marvel about.
Neither guy, however, got quantum (behavior of small things like atoms) observations "right" -- that's were all the cutting edge action is 300 years after Newton. General relativity is missing some stuff ..... but Nobels get handed out every year as folks find more potential incomplete puzzle pieces.
The passage of time, or just plain ole smarter people building on smart peoples' work before them, reveals NEW insights. We learned that throwing rocks at the sky could NOT stop an eclipse.
Similarly, we will learn -- probably -- that things in general relativity, quantum theory, string theory, etc. that we call "constants" are really "variables". And if so, then we may learn that these variables can in fact be "manipulated".
Extend that logic and you might get warp drives and transporters -- stuff that looks like science fiction to us today.
Same way if you asked Robert E Lee or US Grant back in 1860 could they conceive of technology (a fusion weapon - "huh"?!) that, dropped from a plane ("a metal bird that flies?! - whah?!"), that could kill 100,000 people in 10 seconds?
Less than 100 years later, we had ALL that technology and much more.
Imagine -- i try all the time -- what groovy things we will know/be able to do in a mere 50 years from now.
"Our" government
.Do "they" know more than they tell us. Or course. Always have. Always will. Are they hiding "ET" from us? Not a chance!
In a universe (ignore the multi-verse) 14 billion years old, could something/someone "out there" have figured out, for example, quantum gravity and then invented warp drive using "flying saucers", and visited/visits backwater planets like ours all the time? Sure!
Lets assume further they knew what we know now .. a billion years ago! They'd probably be further along the technical path than we are now -- and therefore now using fantastical machines, moving through inter-dimensional time and space - as easily as we move around this planet in our cars, boats, trains, and planes.
"Today", despite their brilliance, the reason our real smart people -- Weinsteins, Puthoffs, Einsteins, Hawkings, Heisenbergs, Paulings, et. al.,-- get/got "infinities" in their equations is because there is something (Weinstein in Fratzog's piece called it "fundamental physics") they STILL don't yet know.
Our government, any government, anybody .. on this planet .. is NOT hiding "ET" from us any more than they are hiding fundamental physics from us. We are not smart enough. And something like that .. it'll get out.
A gravity defying aircraft? they ain't hiding that either.
BUT most definitely there are "secret projects" in belly of DARPA, or Boeing, MIT, or wherever else smart folks work on exotic projects, that would look like science fiction to any of us outside that loop (e.g., "Manhattan Project", stealth technology, heck even radar 100 years ago, are examples of dozens of BIG things we learn about after the work is done)
But again, ET being hidden from us BY the federales or anybody? Nope- I do not think so. ET itself hiding from us because it thinks that we are "dumb" compared them? Probably.
IMHO
Good piece Fratzog .. I have weekend homework!
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That homework assignment lasted about three minutes.
There's a reason I have never heard of Edward Witten, the son of Louis Witten (100 years old and still at it according to Wiki). I am sure both are nice guys -- but I have as much mathematically in common with them as I have with my daughter's house cat.
I tried to watch a lecture on YouTube Edward did just last month (jan 2022) on "Gravity and the Crossed Product". This was his second slide (and ole Eddie in upper corner)
Its my first language .. English. He was speaking English too. But it was all so far away from anything I remotely understood ... and it was 90 minutes long?!
These are the guys/gals working a quantum theory of gravity. Mind numbing to 99.99% of the world .. exhilarating to these folks.
Now, the following 10 minute video might also give one a headache.
For me and maybe some of you, while I cannot do hardly ANY of the math, I do get the overall point: we know we need a quantum gravity theory, but may NEVER be able to find it without some leap in our understanding of fundamental physics.
We'll keep the Wittens on the quantum gravity case. We know they are smart, but bet neither one owns a cool a** C body!
Meantime I will get nerve up to see how fast I can drive the Flying Whale -- without losing my driver's license for a year, plus paying a five-digit fine.
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Guess I am going to the Moon after all
Project Artemis .. apparently we are going back. Interesting mission if you want to learn more: source: NASA: Artemis
NASA is letting ordinary citizens, for free, send there names to Moon on Artemis. I'm goin" - in name only!
source: Want to visit space? You can send your name on NASA's next mission around the moon for free
Project Artemis .. apparently we are going back. Interesting mission if you want to learn more: source: NASA: Artemis
NASA is letting ordinary citizens, for free, send there names to Moon on Artemis. I'm goin" - in name only!
source: Want to visit space? You can send your name on NASA's next mission around the moon for free
thethee
Senior Member
Looks like Webb's optics are working!
"While the purpose of this image was to focus on the bright star at the center for alignment evaluation, Webb's optics and NIRCam are so sensitive that the galaxies and stars seen in the background show up. At this stage of Webb’s mirror alignment, known as “fine phasing,” each of the primary mirror segments have been adjusted to produce one unified image of the same star using only the NIRCam instrument. This image of the star, which is called 2MASS J17554042+6551277, uses a red filter to optimize visual contrast."
Credits: NASA/STScI
NASA’s Webb Reaches Alignment Milestone, Optics Working Successfully
"While the purpose of this image was to focus on the bright star at the center for alignment evaluation, Webb's optics and NIRCam are so sensitive that the galaxies and stars seen in the background show up. At this stage of Webb’s mirror alignment, known as “fine phasing,” each of the primary mirror segments have been adjusted to produce one unified image of the same star using only the NIRCam instrument. This image of the star, which is called 2MASS J17554042+6551277, uses a red filter to optimize visual contrast."
Credits: NASA/STScI
NASA’s Webb Reaches Alignment Milestone, Optics Working Successfully
source: Final James Webb Space Telescope instrument reaches super-cold operating temperature
Wont be long now it seems.
The James Webb Space Telescope notched a cool milestone — literally — during its months-long calibration for deep-space observations.
The final instrument aboard the $10 billion James Webb Space Telescope finally achieved its operating temperature of just above absolute zero.
The successful cooling ensures that the observatory will be able to probe cosmic objects in infrared light, according to a Wednesday (April 13) statement from NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) in California, which leads U.S. work on the instrument, called the Mid-Infrared Instrument (MIRI).
The telescope has been cooling ever since its launch on Dec. 25, 2021, bringing it to the frigid temperatures necessary for MIRI to accurately detect infrared light, which manifests as heat.
MIRI needs to be at a temperature is a little below 7 degrees Kelvin, which is equivalent to minus 447 degrees Fahrenheit (minus 266 degrees Celsius).
Wont be long now it seems.
The James Webb Space Telescope notched a cool milestone — literally — during its months-long calibration for deep-space observations.
The final instrument aboard the $10 billion James Webb Space Telescope finally achieved its operating temperature of just above absolute zero.
The successful cooling ensures that the observatory will be able to probe cosmic objects in infrared light, according to a Wednesday (April 13) statement from NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) in California, which leads U.S. work on the instrument, called the Mid-Infrared Instrument (MIRI).
The telescope has been cooling ever since its launch on Dec. 25, 2021, bringing it to the frigid temperatures necessary for MIRI to accurately detect infrared light, which manifests as heat.
MIRI needs to be at a temperature is a little below 7 degrees Kelvin, which is equivalent to minus 447 degrees Fahrenheit (minus 266 degrees Celsius).
LocuMob
Fluid Technician with a hat
thethee
Senior Member
Looks like we got the first sharp image frome the James Webb telescope!
NASA’s Webb In Full Focus, Ready for Instrument Commissioning – James Webb Space Telescope
NASA’s Webb In Full Focus, Ready for Instrument Commissioning – James Webb Space Telescope
Old news .. blackhole at center of Milky Way imaged last week.
The dark spot in the center is the "event horizon". The illuminated (orange) ring is the stuff the black hole is "eating" (hot gases swirling around super fast before it passes into the gravity well this IS the black hole).
A mass of 4 million suns .. extraordinary! IF you could hang around the event horizon (you cant, plus we can't get there) for an hour, and come back to Earth, you'd find a million years has passed here.
Plus, the scientific thinking is black holes are somehow key to galaxy formation, and all that follows IN that galaxy. LSS -- no Milky Way, maybe NO human beings.
Anyway, I am hoping Jimmy Webb can get a look at these things.
Not sure IF it can though cuz it took a network of telescopes across the planet working together to get this image (in effect they created a telescope the size of the Earth) .. but JWST will find something we didnt know I am sure.
The dark spot in the center is the "event horizon". The illuminated (orange) ring is the stuff the black hole is "eating" (hot gases swirling around super fast before it passes into the gravity well this IS the black hole).
A mass of 4 million suns .. extraordinary! IF you could hang around the event horizon (you cant, plus we can't get there) for an hour, and come back to Earth, you'd find a million years has passed here.
Plus, the scientific thinking is black holes are somehow key to galaxy formation, and all that follows IN that galaxy. LSS -- no Milky Way, maybe NO human beings.
Anyway, I am hoping Jimmy Webb can get a look at these things.
Not sure IF it can though cuz it took a network of telescopes across the planet working together to get this image (in effect they created a telescope the size of the Earth) .. but JWST will find something we didnt know I am sure.
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