Car sat for 2 months, now starter just clunks

[darth_linux]

UPDATE: I tried the "tappy tappy" thing with the solenoid while an assistant turned the key, no luck. I pulled the starter. Not too heavy (16 lbs) but that upper bolt is a b*tch. Took it to O'Reilly's, and it tested fine, of course. I bought a new positive battery cable to replace the one on the car that was looking pretty sketchy. Went back home, put new battery cable on, cleaned up dirty old starter, reinstalled it, and the car fired right up.

Now, it started, but there is an awful grinding noise as the engine is running that sounds like the bendix is not getting retracted all of the way, and it's still partially engaged with the flywheel. (It sounds something like a bad bearing, but I know the starter just has bushings and not bearings, so I'm guessing it's the bendix.) Lucky me, I get to pull the starter a second time!

ABOUT THAT TOP BOLT: What a nightmare. Being 5'8" and 165 lbs., I settled on laying on top of the air cleaner with my feet towards the passenger fenderwell and using my left hand to reach down behind the driver's side valve cover to grab a ratcheting wrench I placed on the upper bolt. I used my right hand to keep the wrench from falling off of the bolt head. Trying to insert that bolt from below the car was pointless, as I am not a contortionist and I had no visibility of the bolt hole. I don't have a lift either, so I was laying on my back with the car slightly elevated. Much easier to just lay across the engine.

SO WHAT WAS THE ISSUE? Was it the sketchy battery cable not making a good connection? Possibly, but I don't see how fixing that would introduce such a horrible noise after starting the engine. Was it the starter? Seems most likely. Something seized up while sitting for 2 months. When that was loosened up and the starter then did the rest of it's job, something else gave out. That's my thought.

What are YOUR secrets to removing/replacing that awful upper starter bolt?

 

[darth_linux]

I think I know what the problem is. While I had the starter out, I took the tin bendix cover off to inspect and relube. I think I put it back on wrong, since it just popped out and I didn't see where the little tab goes. Looking at the reman unit I just got, I see that it's in a different place. I'm guessing the tin cover is rubbing on something . . . I'll find out in the morning when I take the starter back out. Stay tuned . . .

 

[MoPar~Man]

It's been a while since I've had a starter apart, from what I recall, there's a big thick copper disk that makes contact with the big battery post bolt and the starter winding. The disk can get covered in an oxide layer from the sparking that goes on in there, and you can get a semi-conductor effect where the disk gets pulled in but the oxide prevents current flow. The solution is to clean everything up with a wire wheel. Then maybe apply conductive grease.

It could be that just removing the starter and handling it, knocking it around was enough to rotate the disk a little into a new position so it would work again. Or - the real problem was at the battery post.

The same semi-conductor effect can and does happen at the battery post. Did you clean the cable end and the post with a battery post brush? Make them nice and shiney? Does your battery cables (your postive, or negative, or both) have this on the end:

If your positive cable has that connector, then unbolt the wires and clean them up and then put it back together.

 

[darth_linux]

It's been a while since I've had a starter apart, from what I recall, there's a big thick copper disk that makes contact with the big battery post bolt and the starter winding. The disk can get covered in an oxide layer from the sparking that goes on in there, and you can get a semi-conductor effect where the disk gets pulled in but the oxide prevents current flow. The solution is to clean everything up with a wire wheel. Then maybe apply conductive grease.

It could be that just removing the starter and handling it, knocking it around was enough to rotate the disk a little into a new position so it would work again. Or - the real problem was at the battery post.

The same semi-conductor effect can and does happen at the battery post. Did you clean the cable end and the post with a battery post brush? Make them nice and shiney? Does your battery cables (your postive, or negative, or both) have this on the end:

View attachment 732876

If your positive cable has that connector, then unbolt the wires and clean them up and then put it back together.

Battery situation as of right now. The posts and terminals got a good clean. The negative got a repair of sorts and the positive is brand new.

 

[MoPar~Man]

Is that a full reproduction battery, or just a repro-cover on a modern battery? A full repro battery is not cheap. And a repro positive battery cable is not cheap either - like $150 - $200. I'd have to say you almost certainly were not having connection problems at the battery with those cables.

 

[darth_linux]

Is that a full reproduction battery, or just a repro-cover on a modern battery? A full repro battery is not cheap. And a repro positive battery cable is not cheap either - like $150 - $200. I'd have to say you almost certainly were not having connection problems at the battery with those cables.

It's just a cap and sticker kit. I looked into reproduction battery cables and decided that was WAY too much money for this car. This car isn't a Concours or "Cordon Bleu" show car . . . it's just a clean Newport.

 

[Big_John]

UPDATE: I tried the "tappy tappy" thing with the solenoid while an assistant turned the key, no luck. I pulled the starter. Not too heavy (16 lbs) but that upper bolt is a b*tch. Took it to O'Reilly's, and it tested fine, of course. I bought a new positive battery cable to replace the one on the car that was looking pretty sketchy. Went back home, put new battery cable on, cleaned up dirty old starter, reinstalled it, and the car fired right up.

Now, it started, but there is an awful grinding noise as the engine is running that sounds like the bendix is not getting retracted all of the way, and it's still partially engaged with the flywheel. (It sounds something like a bad bearing, but I know the starter just has bushings and not bearings, so I'm guessing it's the bendix.) Lucky me, I get to pull the starter a second time!

ABOUT THAT TOP BOLT: What a nightmare. Being 5'8" and 165 lbs., I settled on laying on top of the air cleaner with my feet towards the passenger fenderwell and using my left hand to reach down behind the driver's side valve cover to grab a ratcheting wrench I placed on the upper bolt. I used my right hand to keep the wrench from falling off of the bolt head. Trying to insert that bolt from below the car was pointless, as I am not a contortionist and I had no visibility of the bolt hole. I don't have a lift either, so I was laying on my back with the car slightly elevated. Much easier to just lay across the engine.

SO WHAT WAS THE ISSUE? Was it the sketchy battery cable not making a good connection? Possibly, but I don't see how fixing that would introduce such a horrible noise after starting the engine. Was it the starter? Seems most likely. Something seized up while sitting for 2 months. When that was loosened up and the starter then did the rest of it's job, something else gave out. That's my thought.

What are YOUR secrets to removing/replacing that awful upper starter bolt?

The top bolt should be a stud screwed in the bell housing with a nut to hold the starter. It kind of depends on the exhaust pipe how the best way to get at it is. I think most of the time it's been a long extension and rachet, but there's also wobble extensions and u-joints.

Bad cables are why a lot of starters get replaced. There's a simple voltage drop test, but no one ever wants to do it, so I don't bother mentioning it anymore.

While it's tough to see in that picture, the negative terminal looks like the clamp bolt has "bottomed out". The negative post is smaller and sometimes cables, yes even black cables, have a larger positive terminal and when squeezed down, they don't quite clamp the post correctly. Again, hard to see in the pic, so I may be wrong.

 

[Toolmanmike]

Now, it started, but there is an awful grinding noise as the engine is running that sounds like the bendix is not getting retracted all of the way, and it's still partially engaged with the flywheel. (It sounds something like a bad bearing, but I know the starter just has bushings and not bearings, so I'm guessing it's the bendix.) Lucky me, I get to pull the starter a second time!

Take the starter back and get another one. Unless you installed the starter upside down, backwards, or sideways, it shouldn't make any noise after the engine starts. It didn't make noise before. What parts store again? Remind me to never buy a starter there.

 

[Toolmanmike]

The top bolt should be a stud screwed in the bell housing with a nut to hold the starter. It kind of depends on the exhaust pipe how the best way to get at it is. I think most of the time it's been a long extension and rachet, but there's also wobble extensions and u-joints.

Bad cables are why a lot of starters get replaced. There's a simple voltage drop test, but no one ever wants to do it, so I don't bother mentioning it anymore.

While it's tough to see in that picture, the negative terminal looks like the clamp bolt has "bottomed out". The negative post is smaller and sometimes cables, yes even black cables, have a larger positive terminal and when squeezed down, they don't quite clamp the post correctly. Again, hard to see in the pic, so I may be wrong.

Good eye for an old guy! LOL Take the bolt out, carefully spread the ends open and file some of the lead out of the ends so the cable end will tighten around the battery post. Wire brush the post and inside of the cable end. @darth_linux Make this repair before pulling the starter again but I doubt it will make your grinding noise go away.

 

[Big_John]

Take the starter back and get another one. Unless you installed the starter upside down, backwards, or sideways, it shouldn't make any noise after the engine starts. It didn't make noise before. What parts store again? Remind me to never buy a starter there.

He put the original starter back in. At least that's the way I read it.

 

[darth_linux]

Oh, good info! someone had to put the stud on the bottom and it wasn’t screwed in all the way, so I was acting like a bolt. I will move the stud back to the top. That should make things easier.

 

[Jakter]

Good eye for an old guy! LOL Take the bolt out, carefully spread the ends open and file some of the lead out of the ends so the cable end will tighten around the battery post. Wire brush the post and inside of the cable end. @darth_linux Make this repair before pulling the starter again but I doubt it will make your grinding noise go away. View attachment 733043

I don't use a file.
I leave the ends touching and take a mini grinder with a cut off wheel to where the ends touch plunge cut the touching ends and you'll have almost 1/8" removed in no time.

 

[Gerald Morris]

UPDATE: I tried the "tappy tappy" thing with the solenoid while an assistant turned the key, no luck. I pulled the starter. Not too heavy (16 lbs) but that upper bolt is a b*tch. Took it to O'Reilly's, and it tested fine, of course. I bought a new positive battery cable to replace the one on the car that was looking pretty sketchy. Went back home, put new battery cable on, cleaned up dirty old starter, reinstalled it, and the car fired right up.

Fresh SHINY NEW COPPER conductor where needed made this happen. The new cable did the Trick for you, on the immediate issue. Consider THAT SOLVED! Now...

Now, it started, but there is an awful grinding noise as the engine is running that sounds like the bendix is not getting retracted all of the way, and it's still partially engaged with the flywheel. (It sounds something like a bad bearing, but I know the starter just has bushings and not bearings, so I'm guessing it's the bendix.) Lucky me, I get to pull the starter a second time!

Practice practice PRACTICE! makes Proficient if not Perfect. Any time I have starter blues, I expect a day of "starter pressing,m" often with several. That's the worst part.

ABOUT THAT TOP BOLT: What a nightmare. Being 5'8" and 165 lbs., I settled on laying on top of the air cleaner with my feet towards the passenger fenderwell and using my left hand to reach down behind the driver's side valve cover to grab a ratcheting wrench I placed on the upper bolt.

Put a STUD in that damned hole the next time. Then you will only need to use a nut and you can hang the starter on the stud, then tighten it from underneath, using an extension with a U-joint socket. Also, chase out your threads on that attachment hardware if not new. Makes it easier to finger-tighten **** until you need to use other tools. Use a little light oil on your threads also, or even thin Teflon tape there! I do. Neither of the essential bolt/studs is near anything which will be destroyed if a molecule of PTFE gets on it. I don't use Teflon in most of the engine, but a couple bolts actually benefit from it. Others, one uses threadlock. I'm an old junky, no fitness freak myself, and a lazy **** also, yet I've got starter removal and installation down to a "no-sweat" status. Done many and many-a on as many differing cars and trucks. I recall the nut size as an 11/16" for the stud, which I think is a 7/16" coarse thread. It might be just a 3/8-16 though. No big matter. I torque nut and bolt alike as per FSM specs. When you use a stud, finger it down, then, when you torque down the nut, make sure the stud goes in until it stops turning.

I used my right hand to keep the wrench from falling off of the bolt head. Trying to insert that bolt from below the car was pointless, as I am not a contortionist and I had no visibility of the bolt hole. I don't have a lift either, so I was laying on my back with the car slightly elevated. Much easier to just lay across the engine.

SO WHAT WAS THE ISSUE? Was it the sketchy battery cable not making a good connection?

YES! You might cut the old terminal off that one, get a nice new copper terminal, skin back the wire, crinp it on, then solder with a rosin flux, then use shrink-wrap to insulate all but the flat part of the lug, and re-use the wire for whatever.

Possibly, but I don't see how fixing that would introduce such a horrible noise after starting the engine. Was it the starter? Seems most likely. Something seized up while sitting for 2 months.

Sure. When **** sits, all sorts of surface molecular chemistry occurs, sticking surfaces ever more strongly together. I'd use some good dispersant first, to get rid of any moisture in the solenoid and starter, then a bit of lubricant to keep things working smoothly. I suspect there wasn't enough lube here. It's also likely some shaft surface has been damaged, causing the bendix to snag. Might be best you bust out a couple C-notes on a NEW starter, then see what you can do to PROPERLY REBUILD the old one. Is the old one permanent magnet? If so, treasure it! And rebuild it well. If you lack something essential to a GOOD rebuild, hire a GOOD shop, but only if its an Old Mopar one.

When that was loosened up and the starter then did the rest of it's job, something else gave out. That's my thought.

More like, the Other Something just became apparent on the next use. It already was lurking, waiting to occur. I really think you'd best get a new starter for now.

What are YOUR secrets to removing/replacing that awful upper starter bolt?

I use flexible extension shafts and good sockets, and, as mentioned, I use a stud on the upper hole, to hang the starter in. Makes it a MUCH easier process, be sure of it.

 

[Toolmanmike]

I don't use a file.
I leave the ends touching and take a mini grinder with a cut off wheel to where the ends touch plunge cut the touching ends and you'll have almost 1/8" removed in no time.

Use whatever yool you have to remove material. It's lead, you could scrape it off with a pocket knife.

 

[Gerald Morris]

Oh, good info! someone had to put the stud on the bottom and it wasn’t screwed in all the way, so I was acting like a bolt. I will move the stud back to the top. That should make things easier.

Yes, the stud is supposed to be on top. Glad you got wise to that. It certainly makes things a LOT easier. You might want to use BLUE threadlock to make it more difficult for that stud to loosen at it's base. Let it set, then dab on a little Something, even Ivory Soap to lubricate the threads for the nut after you get the starter seated. You shouldn't HAVE TO STRUGGLE to hang even an Old School Mopar big permanent magnet starter on that stud. Well Done!

 

[Gerald Morris]

....

The same semi-conductor effect can and does happen at the battery post. Did you clean the cable end and the post with a battery post brush? Make them nice and shiney? Does your battery cables (your postive, or negative, or both) have this on the end:

View attachment 732876

If your positive cable has that connector, then unbolt the wires and clean them up and then put it back together.

Those are OK, but I prefer marine terminals, as then I can use ring terminals on any wire I care to attach, then detach them by removing the retaining nut(s). I've become religiously zealous in disconnecting the ground before doing a LOT of tasks on Gertrude, especially after one of my boob illiterate pissant neighbors burned down three trailers across the driveway from us one midnight because the damned fool DIDN'T DISCONNECT THE GROUND IN HIS IDIOTMOBILE ATV, leading to some wire in or near a fuel tank shorting, overheating, causing a BIG fuel tank to EXPLODE, SPEWING FLAMING LIQUID HYDROCARBONS ONTO HIS OWN, AND TWO OF HIS NEIGHBORS' TRAILERS, AUTOMOBILES ET AL, MAKING FOR MORE PYROTECHNIC FUN BEFORE 6 FIRETRUCKS ARRIVED TO DOUSE A NEAR LIFE THREATENING TRAILERPARK FIRE!!!

Always a PARTY down here in the Old PueBLOW, Wed., June 18, 2025, a HOT TIME!


So, I take disconnecting ground SERIOUSLY!

 

[Vaanth]

Oh, good info! someone had to put the stud on the bottom and it wasn’t screwed in all the way, so I was acting like a bolt. I will move the stud back to the top. That should make things easier.

Although the stud/washer/nut or bolt/captive_washer can be installed either way as preferred, Chrysler installed the stud in the lower hole. The following images shows an excerpt from the 1966 parts manual describing the stud and bolt by position:

The parts and positions are the same from 1960 through 1989, perhaps more. The nut is part number 0272235 and the lock washer is not serviced.

The 2095150 starter was equipped in most applications that year.

The 2098500 starter was on the 170 engine, the 2542445 was used only with the 426 Hemi with manual transmission, which used a direct drive starter and two different bolts, and the 1889100 was used only in manual transmission taxi applications with a 11" clutch, and apparently the hardware was not serviced.

I prefer the stud in the lower hole for working with the starters myself. For getting to the top 5/8" head bolt, I use a 3/8" ratchet with an extension(s) longer than the starter and reaches beyond the down pipe on an exhaust manifold, and a short 5/8"socket. In some cases a swivel adapter might be added. Headers might change this, but I don't run headers on my cars, and only have headers on two of my trucks, and they have Denso style mini starters.

 

[Gerald Morris]

....

I prefer the stud in the lower hole for working with the starters myself. For getting to the top 5/8" head bolt, I use a 3/8" ratchet with an extension(s) longer than the starter and reaches beyond the down pipe on an exhaust manifold, and a short 5/8"socket. In some cases a swivel adapter might be added. Headers might change this, but I don't run headers on my cars, and only have headers on two of my trucks, and they have Denso style mini starters.

Either lower or upper, having ONE stud to hang the starter on sure is helpful! THANK YOU for clarifying which position the original, intended position of the stud is. You use tools and method very similar to my own for getting the upper bolt or nut loose. I always equip myself with both a 5/8" and 11/16" socket, several extensions, and at least a swivel socket or swiveling extension when I do some "starter bench pressing." I know good and well at times I've placed the stud in either position, as well as the bolt. I always place the starter on the stud, ease it in, then pop in the bolt to help draw it straight, then torque the nut further down to spec torque. Then I wire it. EZPZ. Once this damned summer heat ends (around Turkeyday here these daze) I can get zappy with my own "wannadooz" w Gertrude instead of the "gottadooz" which sometimes arise.

 

[darth_linux]

PROBLEM SOLVED!

Does anyone see my mistake in photo #1?

If you don't, what happened was I had taken off the tin bendix cover to lube the slides for the fork and add some white litho grease to the reduction gear. When I popped the cover off I didn't notice the position of the tab (doh!), so when I put it back together, I put the tab INTO the recess, instead of resting it ON TOP OF the recess. This caused the bendix to not return all the way, hang on the flywheel, and scrape away!

I realized my mistake as soon as I looked at the "new" unit in the box. I'm gonna keep the extra starter around just in case something else lets go, I won't have to go shopping first.

Cheers for the advice on the stud. I guess the FSM has the stud in the lower hole, but it's easier to get things lined up with the shim with the stud being in the upper hole, and I was able to attach the nut and tighten it completely from under the car - no more laying on top of the air cleaner!

Thanks again to all, case closed.

PS - I'm gonna put a new negative battery cable on soon. This one has been "repaired" but I'll do it right in the next couple of weeks.

 

[Jakter]

Use whatever yool you have to remove material. It's lead, you could scrape it off with a pocket knife.

The point being I don't like to spread an old clamp open to get a file or knife in there and then compress the clamp back closed when the bolt is retightened on the battery.
The way I do it you just put it back on the battery and carefully snug it up so it don't turn by hand.
Less chance of breaking the clamp.