Installing a roller camshaft in 1973 440

[LeBaron1973]

I'm wondering whether I should install a roller camshaft when the 440 in my '73 Imperial is eventually rebuilt?

Just that there seem to be concerns about the reduction of ZDDP in oils and the roller cam isn't affected by this.

Oils are different down here in OZ but wanted to get an opinion.

John

 

[celticwarlock]

If you go that route, let it not be because of your concerns about ZDDP. Though that may well be an issue, there are more valid reasons for going to a roller design. ZDDP is contained within other commonly available additives, so it can be added if need be. Roller cams, on the other hand, will afford you the benefit of reduced friction. Bear this in mind, though....I am not entirely sure, but I believe such a conversion would involve additional modifications that would have to be figured into your budget (some say the link bar that connects two adjoining lifters may pose a clearance problem that requires machining when installed, others say it's a non-issue). Do your homework. If it's a bolt-in operation, I'd say go for it.

 

[cantflip]

I have looked at this and thought about this myself. Not that I have any immediate plans or need. I have a 440 from the old rv I stripped years ago, I have thought about using it as my test mule for any modifications I want to make. I do not intend to hurt either of my babies original engines... if I even go there. I don't want to sound all gloom and doom, because I do believe that we will find reasonable ways to keep these beauties on the road as fuels and oils continue to evolve.

A roller cam has a lot offer, and a price tag to match. It has gone through my mind that if you did a roller, you might as well think about aluminum heads and a small compression bump. Mine are all 70s low compression engines. IDK for sure that the 74 engines have hardened valve seats, but will look into it someday. I also have thought about a flat tappet and a quickie cleanup and reseal engine job, just in case everything looks good enough to reuse. Bottom line for me, plan A is to run the cars unless there is a failure. Plan B is to start getting creative, and then with an engine that isn't married to one of the cars. I don't believe matching numbers will ever matter from a collectable view, but I would like the cars to stay close to as I received them.

I don't know about oils and fuels "down under", but USA fuels already have the E15 potential, and I think that will be a bigger issue than oils in our future. Anyone know where I can get a stainless fuel tank for a C body?

 

[LeBaron1973]

Thx for the replies guys. Our fuels are Aus octane (US Octane has different measures) 91 (88) 95 (92) 98 (95) (all pure Petrol/Gasoline) and E10 plus Diesel and LPG (Propane).

I'll inquire about the engine, was just musing about it, someone who knows engines will comment and i'll post here.

Cheers Guys

John

 

[cantflip]

Real gasoline... wow, now I want to move.

FWIW I spent a career putting stuff back to stock, not really this generation of cars, but the same idea. Whenever we get ideas to modify stuff, we throw a lot of factory engineering out the window and aftermarket performance items may be less thoroughly engineered than they claim. Doesn't matter much, even the factory uses trial and error after they put down the slide rule. I would definitely listen for experiences from those who have worked similar parts in similar combinations, but keep in mind you will be creating the final tune yourself to get it running correctly. Distributor recurving and dialing in the carb (jets, etc) are a part of modification. There is a lot of help to be had from others, but expect to have to do that work yourself unless you know of a local old school performance tuner in your area who will help.

 

[Big_John]

I would say that you are going to be very very limited with grind selection. Keep in mind that ramp profile etc. has to be different for a roller cam. The cam companies may have some off the shelf grinds for race cars, but a mild low end torque cam, like you want to make your Imp not fall flat on its face, isn't going to just happens when you are talking about a roller cam. I would figure on having a custom cam ground... then trying it... and probably trying another one etc.

I'm not saying it isn't possible, it's just really not practical.

With ZDDP oils and additives available along with proper break in and regular oil changes, you aren't going to have a problem with flat tappets.

 

[LeBaron1973]

Thx, didn't know it was such a hassle, it can stay original.

Much appreciate the advice.

 

[fury fan]

Sounds like decision already made, but here's my $.02.

When I looked into rollers a few years ago, it was easily a $700+ deal.

In addition to cam and lifters, you need a special distributor drive gear to mate with the steel billet used in roller cams (I believe std cams are iron, so the gear is iron also).

Then you need a thrust button setup to keep the cam in place. Flat-tappet cam lobes have a slight taper to them (front to rear of the engine) and those tapers act like wedges against the lifters to keep the cam in location - roller cams don't have this taper. Thrust buttons usually involve some type of flat roller bearing that grounds against the timing chain cover. I don't know what off-shelf options there are for this, or how easily they install.

Flat-tappet cams are most vulnerable during break-in, so using break-in lube is your insurance, and I've heard that using old/weak valvesprings during breakin may be a benefit also.

Hughes Engines has this article on cam installation/break-in, although I remember a better article of theirs although now I can't find it.
http://www.hughesengines.com/Upload/productInstructions/camshaft_instructions_Mar_2016.pdf

 

[66/440]

I have looked at this and thought about this myself. Not that I have any immediate plans or need. I have a 440 from the old rv I stripped years ago, I have thought about using it as my test mule for any modifications I want to make. I do not intend to hurt either of my babies original engines... if I even go there. I don't want to sound all gloom and doom, because I do believe that we will find reasonable ways to keep these beauties on the road as fuels and oils continue to evolve.

A roller cam has a lot offer, and a price tag to match. It has gone through my mind that if you did a roller, you might as well think about aluminum heads and a small compression bump. Mine are all 70s low compression engines. IDK for sure that the 74 engines have hardened valve seats, but will look into it someday. I also have thought about a flat tappet and a quickie cleanup and reseal engine job, just in case everything looks good enough to reuse. Bottom line for me, plan A is to run the cars unless there is a failure. Plan B is to start getting creative, and then with an engine that isn't married to one of the cars. I don't believe matching numbers will ever matter from a collectable view, but I would like the cars to stay close to as I received them.

I don't know about oils and fuels "down under", but USA fuels already have the E15 potential, and I think that will be a bigger issue than oils in our future. Anyone know where I can get a stainless fuel tank for a C body?

Hot Rod City

It's not shown here but these guys will make a SS tank to fit anything. They currently build A, B and E body tanks.
Custom mods can be done to your tank to increase the capacity. For instance, if you have a car that had the recess area for the spare in the trunk floor, and you now have a flat floor, we can make the tank completely square where it would normally have the big half moon notch, increasing the overall capacity about 3 gallons. You can also get these tanks with 2" extra depth to increase the capacity, but the J bolts may need to be lengthened. Can also add in-tank pumps for your EFI application.

All tanks are made in the USA, by real Americans, for your American car. Will also accept Saudi, Canadian and South American fuels.

ABody tanks $450

B-Body tanks 66-67 $525 (requires 10% more for freight)

B-Body tanks 68-70 $450

B-Body 71-74 $450

E-Body tanks $450

Sending unit $50

2" extra depth $140 extra

Deep sump w/ports $125 extra

Larger size bungs/additional ports $15 ea.

In tank pump (Walbro 50 GPH/100 PSI) $350 extra. F9000 pump good to 1100HP available for $425.

Hot Rod City

 

[66/440]

I'm wondering whether I should install a roller camshaft when the 440 in my '73 Imperial is eventually rebuilt?

Just that there seem to be concerns about the reduction of ZDDP in oils and the roller cam isn't affected by this.

Oils are different down here in OZ but wanted to get an opinion.

John

You will need custom length push rods.

 

[LeBaron1973]

Thx, my friend in Wisconsin is making inquiries.

 

[LeBaron1973]

Sounds like decision already made, but here's my $.02.

When I looked into rollers a few years ago, it was easily a $700+ deal.

In addition to cam and lifters, you need a special distributor drive gear to mate with the steel billet used in roller cams (I believe std cams are iron, so the gear is iron also).

Then you need a thrust button setup to keep the cam in place. Flat-tappet cam lobes have a slight taper to them (front to rear of the engine) and those tapers act like wedges against the lifters to keep the cam in location - roller cams don't have this taper. Thrust buttons usually involve some type of flat roller bearing that grounds against the timing chain cover. I don't know what off-shelf options there are for this, or how easily they install.

Flat-tappet cams are most vulnerable during break-in, so using break-in lube is your insurance, and I've heard that using old/weak valvesprings during breakin may be a benefit also.

Hughes Engines has this article on cam installation/break-in, although I remember a better article of theirs although now I can't find it.
http://www.hughesengines.com/Upload/productInstructions/camshaft_instructions_Mar_2016.pdf

Thx for the information- my friend in Wisconsin is checking into it and if viable it'll be done once some Lincolnshire are sold to fund it.