440 in a ‘65 Sport Fury

[fury fan]

No, 'tis correct.

There are 2 types of brackets available nowadays. (I just learned about the 2nd bracket in the last 6 mos)

The one you posted is the OEM style, for engines with the bosses, but modified to use an available insulator (from an early B-body).

The 2nd one is for engines without the bosses.

Both Schumacher and 440Source have webpages for them.
Early C Body 1965 Only-store.440source.com
'67-69 A-Body & '65 C-Body Big Block Left Side Conversion Kit
Presumably the 'oil pump' bracket is made to use the same B-body insulator, but I didn't dig into that.

 

[65CopCar]

No, 'tis correct.

There are 2 types of brackets available nowadays. (I just learned about the 2nd bracket in the last 6 mos)

The one you posted is the OEM style, for engines with the bosses, but modified to use an available insulator (from an early B-body).

The 2nd one is for engines without the bosses.

Both Schumacher and 440Source have webpages for them.
Early C Body 1965 Only-store.440source.com
'67-69 A-Body & '65 C-Body Big Block Left Side Conversion Kit
Presumably the 'oil pump' bracket is made to use the same B-body insulator, but I didn't dig into that.

View attachment 627130

Well you learn something new every day! Good to know. Thanks!

 

[Scout63]

Personally, I would not do an aluminum-headed, roller-cam 440 for a pristine car like yours. It would be out of character, and you don't have the rear tires for it anyway.

I do understand the desire for more power than a 383-2, but I would think that a mildly-souped 383 would be more suitable? Or a 350 or 375hp-spec 440 would be very nice.

Are you thinking iron heads and flat tappet cam on the 440 block? Everything is on the table at this point. Stick with factory iron 4 barrel manifold as well? I don’t really need a lot of horsepower. I just like the idea of a 440 in front of the four speed while I rebuild the 383. I’m selling off my motorcycle collection and recently quit riding so I need a project. Sounds kind of silly. I really appreciate your perspective Fury Fan as well as the feedback and information coming from the forum.

 

[65CopCar]

My cars are street (67 Coronet 383 car) car that runs 14's and is a blast to drive, totally stock 65 383 Fury cop car and a 1060 hp drag car.

Based on my experience, if I were doing it, I would stay with cast iron heads, just clean them up, probably go with a very mild hydraulic roller cam (tired of the flat tappets not lasting anymore), and put a nice dual plane intake like the Edelbrock RPM on it. I would shoot for about 9.2:1 actual measured compression. If you look for my post on the intake, you will see where I overcammed the motor and totally killed the bottom end and hated to drive it. Also did not want to idle well. Took 13/14 degrees duration out of the cam and added 0.020" lift on the exhaust and a completely different car. Starts great, idles well and is a blast to drive.

 

[commando1]

Well you learn something new every day! Good to know. Thanks!

Ditto.

 

[300rag]

No, 'tis correct.

There are 2 types of brackets available nowadays. (I just learned about the 2nd bracket in the last 6 mos)

The one you posted is the OEM style, for engines with the bosses, but modified to use an available insulator (from an early B-body).

The 2nd one is for engines without the bosses.

Both Schumacher and 440Source have webpages for them.
Early C Body 1965 Only-store.440source.com
'67-69 A-Body & '65 C-Body Big Block Left Side Conversion Kit
Presumably the 'oil pump' bracket is made to use the same B-body insulator, but I didn't dig into that.

View attachment 627130

Too bad those weren't available when my 300 was done. I would have kept the 440 that was in it (mounted poorly).

 

[fury fan]

Are you thinking iron heads and flat tappet cam on the 440 block? Everything is on the table at this point. Stick with factory iron 4 barrel manifold as well? I don’t really need a lot of horsepower. I just like the idea of a 440 in front of the four speed while I rebuild the 383. I’m selling off my motorcycle collection and recently quit riding so I need a project. Sounds kind of silly. I really appreciate your perspective Fury Fan as well as the feedback and information coming from the forum.

If you are going to rebuild the 383 to re-use it, why spend much money on the 440? Take the downtime thru the winter, rebuild the 383 to 325/330hp specs (or a little more), and be back to 'original' condition for summer 2024?

My perspective:
You have a 270hp 383-2. Building to a 350 or 375hp 440 spec is an 80-100+ hp increase. Even a very mildly perked-up 383-4 would be a big increase over a 383-2.
Would driving a '68 Charger with 440 Magnum and 4-speed be to your liking as far as peppiness? A '65 SF very weighs about the same.

There would be all sorts of opinions about what you could/should do.
Iron heads with a quality rebuild would be sufficient to support 400+ hp on the 440.
Flat-tappet engines are being rebuilt all the time, and zinc-rich oil is still available (either in racing oil or certain blends of Rotella).
Flat-tappet engines tend to have trouble when not the cam is not broken-in properly, or if not verifying the tappets are rotating properly during assembly.

There's not much improvement from a standard dual-plane alum intake vs factory cast iron (if it's a taller-runner 1968+ version).
Weight savings is the big benefit, until you get into 'tall' dual-planes - but then you have air cleaner and linkage issues to resolve.

It sounds like you are looking for a short-term solution - so stay simple?

EDIT: a 65 383 has small-valve -516 heads, so you would either need to get hardened exh seats put in them, or find mid-70s heads that have factory-hardened seats.
The 516 head was sufficient for the '65 413HP of 360hp and the '66 440 TNT of 365 hp, so shouldn't hold you back, and they'll help with compression vs the later open-chamber heads.
And a gasket-match and bowl cleanup will help the 516s enough for whatever you want them to do on a 383.
Piston options, based on the heads they are paired with, is likely the planning point on building a 383.

 

[RemCharger]

If you are going to rebuild the 383 to re-use it, why spend much money on the 440? Take the downtime thru the winter, rebuild the 383 to 325/330hp specs (or a little more), and be back to 'original' condition for summer 2024?

My perspective:
You have a 270hp 383-2. Building to a 350 or 375hp 440 spec is an 80-100+ hp increase. Even a very mildly perked-up 383-4 would be a big increase over a 383-2.
Would driving a '68 Charger with 440 Magnum and 4-speed be to your liking as far as peppiness? A '65 SF very weighs about the same.

There would be all sorts of opinions about what you could/should do.
Iron heads with a quality rebuild would be sufficient to support 400+ hp on the 440.
Flat-tappet engines are being rebuilt all the time, and zinc-rich oil is still available (either in racing oil or certain blends of Rotella).
Flat-tappet engines tend to have trouble when not the cam is not broken-in properly, or if not verifying the tappets are rotating properly during assembly.

There's not much improvement from a standard dual-plane alum intake vs factory cast iron (if it's a taller-runner 1968+ version).
Weight savings is the big benefit, until you get into 'tall' dual-planes - but then you have air cleaner and linkage issues to resolve.

It sounds like you are looking for a short-term solution - so stay simple?

EDIT: a 65 383 has small-valve -516 heads, so you would either need to get hardened exh seats put in them, or find mid-70s heads that have factory-hardened seats.
The 516 head was sufficient for the '65 413HP of 360hp and the '66 440 TNT of 365 hp, so shouldn't hold you back, and they'll help with compression vs the later open-chamber heads.
And a gasket-match and bowl cleanup will help the 516s enough for whatever you want them to do on a 383.
Piston options, based on the heads they are paired with, is likely the planning point on building a 383.

Very good information and advice.
516s aren't bad. 1 set I had on a low comp 440 went 12.20s with just a bigger exh valve. Happily surprised.
This was in a somewhat lightened 67 Charger

 

[Scout63]

I don’t really need to build or use the 440, I just like the idea of it in the ‘65. I’d like to rebuild the original 383 back to stock specs for installation back later if I sell it or want originality. At this minute I am leaning towards a good set of iron heads well cleaned up, an iron manifold, a slightly more aggressive than stock roller cam and a carb to match.

I’m soaking up all this information and feedback. It’s really wonderful.

 

[fury fan]

I recently read about roller cams vs the distributor drive gear:

If it's a cast-iron core, a HD shaft will work.
If a billet-steel cam core, you need a bronze gear. But what I read recently is that those bronze gears don't last forever, I read they need replaced every 10k miles or so?
IIRC there was at least 1 vendor whose gears were of poor quality, or that people used them in the wrong application and they didn't last.
I also read of some folks having oiling problems with the roller's axle pin.
I may not have all of that 100% correct, so you'll need to research it further.
My takeaway from all of my reading is that a roller cam isn't always a magic bullet either.

All - If I've typed anythign wrong regarding the dizzy gear, please speak up.

 

[Just Carbs]

My understanding is the roller cams allow for better grind numbers. Meaning, more power.

 

[Lefty71]

I would consider something like this before I would dump money into a set of 516's. I know people have done ok with them, and I've seen ported sets.... but I still would'nt do it.

[FOR SALE] - Big block 915 heads (NOR CAL)

 

[Blusmbl]

Roller cams make more power for sure because of the lift area under the lobe, for a given lift and duration the roller will be open further for a longer duration, and you also get the benefit of reduced friction with the roller contacting the cam instead of relying on a flat tappet's face touching and rotating.

You do have to watch the drive gear- you can get melonized drive gears that are hardened, and depending on the cam size and spring rate needed you do have to check the needle bearings in the rollers themselves. Some of the mild hydraulic rollers are ok, but others are going to require checking lash constantly and the lifters need to be rebuilt at regular intervals. The hydraulic roller cams typically get into valvetrain instability around 6000 rpm, which doesn't happen as quickly with a solid flat tappet or solid roller.

On a BB Mopar you also have to watch the roller lifter body type, along with the lift at the cam itself. You can get into some situations where the roller lifters bleed off too much oil and then you have lower than desired hot oil pressure.

 

[65CopCar]

Roller cams make more power for sure because of the lift area under the lobe, for a given lift and duration the roller will be open further for a longer duration, and you also get the benefit of reduced friction with the roller contacting the cam instead of relying on a flat tappet's face touching and rotating.

You do have to watch the drive gear- you can get melonized drive gears that are hardened, and depending on the cam size and spring rate needed you do have to check the needle bearings in the rollers themselves. Some of the mild hydraulic rollers are ok, but others are going to require checking lash constantly and the lifters need to be rebuilt at regular intervals. The hydraulic roller cams typically get into valvetrain instability around 6000 rpm, which doesn't happen as quickly with a solid flat tappet or solid roller.

On a BB Mopar you also have to watch the roller lifter body type, along with the lift at the cam itself. You can get into some situations where the roller lifters bleed off too much oil and then you have lower than desired hot oil pressure.

I have several solid roller cams and have run one hydraulic cam. Totally agree that hydraulic roller on a mopar big block struggles to keep it together at 6000 rpm. Been there, done that, but I would do it again on a street car that doesn't spin over 5800 rpm.

Agree you need to deal with the pump drive with the hydraulic roller. My cam was a Lunati and they told me to send the pump drive to Comp Cams to be nitrided. It cost me $150