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It all sounds ridiculous to me Steve, simply absurd. As I shake my head and wonder in disbelief how anyone can believe in the fairy tale but, they're entitled

What's the bigger fairy tale? That an omnipotent God created a world and people? Or that all matter sprang suddenly from nothing into being, with no driving force/design? Make no mistake; atheism is a matter of faith, a creed. The atheist can no more disprove God than a believer can prove him. The Agnostic has more credibility to me in the matter of science vs mythology.
 
What's the bigger fairy tale? That an omnipotent God created a world and people? Or that all matter sprang suddenly from nothing into being, with no driving force/design? Make no mistake; atheism is a matter of faith, a creed. The atheist can no more disprove God than a believer can prove him. The Agnostic has more credibility to me in the matter of science vs mythology.
Once again a religious apologist reversing the onus of proof. It is those that make unreasonable and preposterous claims that have the onus of proof. The Atheist belief is straight forward and reasonable enough. There is simply no evidence for a god of any sort and a lot of scientific evidence that a god as described in the bible or any other "holy" books absolutely does not exist. Hitch makes the point much more eloquently than I can.
 
What's the bigger fairy tale? That an omnipotent God created a world and people? Or that all matter sprang suddenly from nothing into being, with no driving force/design? Make no mistake; atheism is a matter of faith, a creed. The atheist can no more disprove God than a believer can prove him. The Agnostic has more credibility to me in the matter of science vs mythology.


Not suddenly but over billions of years. Unlike the 7000 years you people claim....Realistic numbers ..
 
Anybody should believe as they are comfortable. No one will ever convince another to believe what he doesn't. Using science and scientist as part of any "proof" is a tough sell. According to science over the years the earth was the center of the universe and the sun revolved around it. Man would suffocate if traveled faster than 69mph. Also bumble bees and helicopters can't fly.
I can't prove God's existence and have no desire too. We are only going to be responsible for our own beliefs, and that's a good enough load to bear
 
That's been my experience. You can't reason with faith.

Is it a failure to reason with faith, or an inability to accept the creation of the universe being beyond mankind's ability to comprehend?

There are plenty of phenomenon that science cannot explain (black holes, etc.) There is an entire field called "theoretical physics" because the science isn't settled.

I don't disbelieve in science, but "science" isn't a catch-all answer and frankly it requires more faith as a complete explanation than the idea of an omnipotent creator.
 
Always the generic answer from Religious guys. Until the " All mighty" itself looks me in the eye and says , Hi I'm God then it doesn't exist.. . Prove to me otherwise or move along with the nonsense.
Faith comes from within and religion has nothing to do with it. Religion doesn't get to claim faith and they are the sole proprietor.
 
Always the generic answer from Religious guys. Until the " All mighty" itself looks me in the eye and says , Hi I'm God then it doesn't exist.. . Prove to me otherwise or move along with the nonsense.
Faith comes from within and religion has nothing to do with it. Religion doesn't get to claim faith and they are the sole proprietor.

Doubting Thomas!
 
I needed to be as grim as possible and make the point clear.

Diane has convinced me of the cremation value
 
I am one that can genuinely claim to have been on both sides of this issue. But I chose the one far more compelling and believeable to me after being forced to take a harder look. And have never regretted it after 45 years. My conclusion just gets stronger every day.

Self-pride blinds us to truth, and comes before the fall. It is true in our day to day personal lives too. And it is ever more rampant as our U.S. society declines in its polarization and ineffectiveness while some more grounded nations begin to take over more sensible policies that work for everyone and increase their influence in the world.

And unlike many of the atheists, I really don't respond with contempt at those who do not share my beliefs. I just put them out there for those who might want to reconsider at some point in their lives. I find it interesting that many of the atheists seem to be insecure with their beliefs to respond with the "my way or the highway" point of view.

If you really love a C body, you don't really care what others may appreciate more. I just let them make their choices with no disparaging of their choices. And thankfully, we have the privilege of making our own choices in this country, and to live with the outcomes that follow, good or bad.

There is no way to "prove" either "faith". You have to go by the preponderance of the evidence. Juries are good instutitions since they are required to hear both sides of a story in depth and then make a determination on that basis. They usually work well when both sides are fully examined without bias going in.

We are all big boys.

Peace.
 
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Religion is a crutch, not to be insulting or denigrating but it's no different than alcohol , cigarettes or any other lean on substance. If you can't figure out life and how to deal with it, religion is a good place to start because of the " it's all good " fantasy.
 
Religion is a crutch, not to be insulting or denigrating but it's no different than alcohol , cigarettes or any other lean on substance. If you can't figure out life and how to deal with it, religion is a good place to start because of the " it's all good " fantasy.

You know Dave, surprisingly, that is exactly what I used to believe 45 years ago. Well stated!

Time to catch up with me my friend! :thumbsup:
 
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Ha, and I think you took a step backwards ....funny how that works.

So Steve, what made you seek out divine intervention?
 
Ha, and I think you took a step backwards ....funny how that works.

So Steve, what made you seek out divine intervention?

I never intended to seek out a different answer, and I felt I had no reason to (this will be longer than I like, but perhaps you will prevail). So, to answer your question, I never did!

But one day, I woke up and thought to myself, I have great supportive parents, good friends, successfully completed 7 years of college and got my Masters Degree, actually landed a job at Chrysler Engineering, which was my ultimate goal in life, even got accepted into their Institute of Engineering program when only 10 people were accepted in 1969, loved my job, made good money and so on. I had no reason to want more in my life.

But also later on, one day I woke up totally empty and didn't really want to get out of bed. To this day, I don't know what happened to me except that God intervened in my life to make me aware that these things I had achieved were not His purpose for my life. It took me several years to climb out of it, but my mother helped and just suggested I might want to attend a local church and see if that could help. I thought that is the last thing I would do.

But eventually, when the emptiness and a burning desire for some unkown reason to know what the purpose and meaning of life was, I acquiesed and went. Fortunately, the church I attended was a good one, with real dedicated people involved. After a few weeks, I had to admit they had something that I very much wanted in my life - purpose and joy. And most important, they had love the likes of which I had never really experienced before. They were truly inwardly happy, content and gave freely of themselves and were just people such that I wanted to have what they had. I never before even wanted any of this that I was aware of.

But I was still very suspicious and didn't want to just accept some "feel good" religion. I am an analytical guy and look closely for b.s.
So I took the Bible and actually studied in intently for almost two years before I realized it was God himself talking directly to me. I concluded no man could have possibly written what was said.

For example, most Christians believe that if they proselytize people that they will likely "believe". But Romans 8 & 9 say otherwise, that if God Himself doesn't intervene in one's life, no one will ever seek Him. That floored me - that was me! It seems to suggest then that it is not our fault if we don't believe. But the apostle Paul puts things into perspective and responds with a response that also shook me up but puts things in perspective.

Without going further into that example, for a moment, I find myself grateful that there was intervention in my life that I never wanted, but couldn't ignore either. I have absolutely no pride in that I am a Christian, only gratefulness, - not because of anything special about what I had done in my life compared to anyone else, but He chose me to become one of His just because of his choice - nothing else the Bible says explicitly. This was the part that took me over two years to struggle with, but I also had a new close friend at work with whom I could share my confusion and understandings with and we could struggle together, since he was pretty new to all this too. We both concluded eventually that none of us has "free will", but only "limited free will" in our lives.

Bottom line, and I admit I don't understand why it works this way, but the Bible also says no one has an excuse for not believing, because of the reality of our lives and the world around us, that there is a divine plan in creation. But it also says no one will believe unless there is His intervention/choice.

So I never even knew I was empty or unsatisfied at the time all this happened - and that is sincere! But when I was forced to open my eyes, I realized that I was really missing out. All I can say at this point is that in placing Him as Lord of my life, I can't explain the joy and contentment in me now any other way. No b.s. His love has no equal, we were meant to fellowship with Him and to represent Him faithfully in our lives like the ones that convinced me to look into this early on. I will never look back.

You can decide, but I don't consider myself a fool, easily suckered, or unable to anayze complex issues. You Dave, seem to be quite intelligent, and we conclude much the same things over time on this Board. But we also have major differences that are due to differences in judgment and life's experiences.

So I have no pesonal judgment against anyone that doesn't "believe", but only hope that one day there might be intervention in your life that you will not welcome, but also will be glad took place. My only purpose in talking about any of this on this Board is to maybe make someone aware, that when unexplained hardship comes into your life, in whatever form it takes, it may well be a knock on the door to a better life than you ever imagined or even even knew existed.

I have met several people on this Board in person, and the one thing that I hope to convey is authenticity. And that I am no fool either. But most of all, I want to be the person God made me to be and represent Him faithfully, even when I fall short.

Sincerely,
Steve
 
What does all this have to do with "Forward Look" mopars....? :wtf:

My apologies, Will. Things just veered off track because I stated that one reason I like the Forward Look mopars was because of the fond rememberences when I felt life was good, much better than these days in many ways and why I thought our country has declined in the world.

One of the things that make this Board much more interesting is that Mopars aren't the only reason it is well attended, as we generally do cover other issues of interest to some as well. I think it is fair to say that all the other Mopar Boards are pretty much losing membership. This is more of a community where we get to know each other more and share and support in each others' experiences and hardships.

We all have the freedom to skip over what doesn't interest us, too.

And hey, it is 108F here today and I don't feel like wrenching - it has been over 100F all week and it isnt' over yet! :BangHead:
 
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