361 instead of 383? Drop in replacement?

[Metalmarty]

Hi all,

Couple of questions.
My matching numbers 383 is disassembled and needs a lot of work for rebuilding. I'm thinking of dropping in another engine to be able to drive while I'm rebuilding my 383.

383 are really hard to get over here (in the Netherlands).

I came across a 361 industrial engine.
Would this engine fit on my big block 727, motormounts, waterpump, distributor etc etc?
In other words is that engine a drop in replacement?

 

[Big_John]

As is, no.

The heads have the additional cooling ports in the front and are something you only see on industrial and occasionally on some RV engines.

So... You might be able to use the short block, but most likely the oil pan is going to different. The oil pump has a different oil filter mount, harmonic balancer is thicker, which is going to cause issues with getting the pulleys to match up.

Then, and I can't remember for sure on this, but there's a possibility that the flange on the rear of the crank is different, possibly like the 50's style Hemi crank.

So, it's not going to just bolt in...

 

[Ross Wooldridge]

It may and it may not...

Things to keep on mind (and please remember that I'm NOT an expert on this, and I'm only speaking from what I've heard, and therefore may be perpetuating misinformation):

Some industrial and marine engines rotate reverse to automotive engines.

The heads may have different exhaust port configuration.

Water pump housings are sometimes different.

Transmission mounting, including the spline etc may be different.

Bosses for standard automotive accessories like power steering, motor mount bosses etc may be different.

 

[CBODY67]

There were 361 car, truck, and industrial variations. Each probably had customized items for each application. By "truck", I'm meaning "medium-duty" rather than normal "pickup truck".

Even if the particular 361 had come out of a car application, it might still have a few year-model-specific items that could complicate the desired installation in place of the 383.

I know that in the case of early-70s 440s in medium-duty trucks, there were lots of differences between them and a normal 440 car motor. Especially on some bolt-on items, as water pumps, for example. Same with Chevy "car" 427s and Chevy C60 "truck" 427s.

Take care,
CBODY67

 

[Davea Lux]

The engine in the photo also has a governor installed on the distributor, usually on industrial engines the governor would run the engine at a fixed RPM and adjust the throttle for increased load. As noted, it is going to be more trouble than it is worth to try and adapt this engine for automotive use. Nearly all the industrial engines have the large flange crank. The industrial heads have a center line water passage thru the intake that takes the place of the heat riser passage. This in addition to the extra coolant ports on the front of the heads was done to improve cooling. None of that stuff will bolt up and fit in an automotive application unless you use the 383 heads and intake. You will also need to use the 383 oil pump, pan and oil pick up and valve covers. Check the casting numbers on the block, the engine in the photo appears to have an RB ID pad next to the distributor, might be a 413.

Dave

 

[Gerald Morris]

I would be TEMPTED to cop that motor, strip it down to a short block, bolt on the 383 accessories and run it, IFF the crank could be mated to the torque converter. I've been intrigued by the notion of using an industrial engine myself. The large flange crank might be the showstopper here. I'd research WELL before spending a cent.......

 

[twostick]

The block is about all you can use on that 361. You can have your 383 built and installed in the time it would take to make that 361 viable with parts you don't have.

Kevin

 

[Metalmarty]

Thanks everyone for the information!
Everything is clear.

To give some more background information.
My matching numbers 383 is worn pretty bad and needs a full rebuild. As can be seen in 1968 Newport 4dr Hardtop restore (NL) Total costs of the rebuild with parts is around $4500. I need to gather some finances before I can start rebuilding the engine.

So I'm looking for a temporary (cheap) engine so I can get my car inspected and registered while I'm gathering finances to rebuild my 383.

A good shortblock is good enough for me. But it seems like the 361 is not worth the hassle...

 

[Gerald Morris]

Thanks everyone for the information!
Everything is clear.

To give some more background information.
My matching numbers 383 is worn pretty bad and needs a full rebuild. As can be seen in 1968 Newport 4dr Hardtop restore (NL) Total costs of the rebuild with parts is around $4500. I need to gather some finances before I can start rebuilding the engine.

So I'm looking for a temporary (cheap) engine so I can get my car inspected and registered while I'm gathering finances to rebuild my 383.

A good shortblock is good enough for me. But it seems like the 361 is not worth the hassle...

Check the crank. THAT is the DECISIVE issue. IFF the crak will mate to your torque converter, you can use the shortblock. Otherwise, keep looking.

 

[twostick]

The crank may have an 8 bolt flange. Your 383 has a 6 bolt.

Kevin

 

[Metalmarty]

Check the crank. THAT is the DECISIVE issue. IFF the crak will mate to your torque converter, you can use the shortblock. Otherwise, keep looking.

The crank may have an 8 bolt flange. Your 383 has a 6 bolt.

Kevin

So if the crank is a 6 bolt flange I can use the shortblock? Can I then use it with my own damper, pullies, heads etc?

And is a 361 always a BB engine? Or can it also be a RB engine like @Davea Lux said?

 

[Gerald Morris]

So if the crank is a 6 bolt flange I can use the shortblock? Can I then use it with my own damper, pullies, heads etc?

And is a 361 always a BB engine? Or can it also be a RB engine like @Davea Lux said?

Mopar made industrial engines in 361 cu in displacement for B blocks, and 413 in^3 for RB blocks. They're TOUGH motors. If that 361 has the 8 bolt flange, then you can't use it unless you pull the crank, replace it w a regular one, then bolt it up. As Dave pointed out, the distributor is governed to deliver the same angular velocity (RPM) varying the throttle based on the LOAD placed on it. To wit: the dizzie too must be replaced, as will perhaps other accessories.

 

[Metalmarty]

Mopar made industrial engines in 361 cu in displacement for B blocks, and 413 in^3 for RB blocks. They're TOUGH motors. If that 361 has the 8 bolt flange, then you can't use it unless you pull the crank, replace it w a regular one, then bolt it up. As Dave pointed out, the distributor is governed to deliver the same angular velocity (RPM) varying the throttle based on the LOAD placed on it. To wit: the dizzie too must be replaced, as will perhaps other accessories.

I had a complete 383 and I can reuse many parts. I also have a new dizzy. A 383 dizzy can be used in a 383 right?

Although. Can I use 906 heads on a 361 since the bore is 4.125 instead of 4.25...? If I can't reuse my 906 heads it's no good.

 

[Big_John]

If that 361 has the 8 bolt flange, then you can't use it unless you pull the crank, replace it w a regular one, then bolt it up. .

Just have to use a 8 bolt flex plate, like they used in the Hemi cars. The only issue is the Hemi flexplates are usually set up for the smaller convertors.

 

[Big_John]

I had a complete 383 and I can reuse many parts. I also have a new dizzy. A 383 dizzy can be used in a 383 right?

Although. Can I use 906 heads on a 361 since the bore is 4.125 instead of 4.25...? If I can't reuse my 906 heads it's no good.

Someone just really needs to tell you that this is a bad idea.

What you have there is a worn out POS industrial engine that you'll waste a lot of time and money on to get it to kinda run... and it will probably run poorly, burn a lot of oil etc. if it runs at all.

This is a bad idea...

 

[57fury440]

The 8 bolt cranks will only work with the '61 and older cast iron transmissions. There are adapters to put a modern torqueflite on the older blocks but it seems like a lot of work for what you are trying to do.

 

[Metalmarty]

Someone just really needs to tell you that this is a bad idea.

What you have there is a worn out POS industrial engine that you'll waste a lot of time and money on to get it to kinda run... and it will probably run poorly, burn a lot of oil etc. if it runs at all.

This is a bad idea...

Sorry if I come across as another stubborn young guy. I'm just looking what options I have for my project. I really appreciate all the info and help I get over here I currently see 2 options

- option 1 :
completely rebuild my 383 which is going to cost me around $4500 for parts and labor which I don't have laying around to just spend. This means savings up money and probably not being able to drive the car next summer.

- option 2 :
Get a shortblock as cheap as possible ($500-1000) Bolt on my 383 heads and other accessories. Drive the car while saving money to properly rebuild my 383

The best thing would be to get a 383 shortblock for option 2. However. They are really rare (and expensive) over here. So that hasn't been an option so far (I'm asking around a lot if someone has a block laying around)

The only B engine I found is this 361 today and was wondering if it might be a temporary option to use the shortblock. The guy is selling it for 700 so I thought it might be interesting.

I'm still very new to the mopar world. And I don't know all of the engine differences yet. I hoped to get some info on this matter over here.

The 8 bolt cranks will only work with the '61 and older cast iron transmissions. There are adapters to put a modern torqueflite on the older blocks but it seems like a lot of work for what you are trying to do.

If it's an 8 bolt crank it's not worth the trouble.
If it's a 6 bolt and I can use the shortblock with my 906 heads and other 383 stuff it might be worth checking out...

 

[Big_John]

The 8 bolt cranks will only work with the '61 and older cast iron transmissions. There are adapters to put a modern torqueflite on the older blocks but it seems like a lot of work for what you are trying to do.

I thought that they also used an 8 bolt flange on the later industrial motor, what would basically be like what they used in the 64 up Hemi engines, although I could be wrong.

 

[Big_John]

Sorry if I come across as another stubborn young guy. I'm just looking what options I have for my project. I currently have 2.

- option 1 :
completely rebuild my 383 which is going to cost me around $4500 for parts and labor which I don't have laying around to just spend. This means savings up money and probably not being able to drive the car next summer.

- option 2 :
Get a shortblock as cheap as possible ($500-1000) Bolt on my 383 heads and other accessories. Drive the car while saving money to properly rebuild my 383

The best thing would be to get a 383 shortblock for option 2. However. They are really rare (and expensive) over here. So that hasn't been an option so far (I'm asking around a lot if someone has a block laying around)

The only B engine I found is this 361 today and was wondering if it might be a temporary option to use the shortblock. The guy is selling it for 700 so I thought it might be interesting.

I'm still very new to the mopar world. And I don't know all of the engine differences yet. I hoped to get some info on this matter over here.

I think you have other options... It isn't being stubborn (or young for that matter) it's about picking a good option.

Let's assume that you can do all the stuff you need to make this work. So... It's time to ask this question. Have you even heard this engine run? Do you know where it came from? How it was used?

Most used industrial equipment is well used and not necessarily well maintained. They are built for it, but they are going to wear like anything else. This could be 40-50, even 60 years old. It's at best, another core engine that will need rebuilding.

I understand that $4500 isn't chump change... and I've been there and done that. This just isn't a good option. No one else here is going to be honest enough to tell you that.

The better option might be to list what you need to do to the engine you have and see what everyone thinks. I've heard lot's of guys say "It needs this" when really, you can do with what you have and it will run just fine.

But, it's your money, your time, your car.

I'm out.

 

[Gerald Morris]

Just have to use a 8 bolt flex plate, like they used in the Hemi cars. The only issue is the Hemi flexplates are usually set up for the smaller convertors.

Ah, GOOD TO KNOW! I see industrial B/RB's ever so often for good looking prices. This might be something I want to remember. Thx John.