advice on changing 440 timing chain

[spstan]

NAAW! Most timing chain gasket kits come with the needed little length of oil pan gasket to replace the bit you WILL remove. It goes just under the front edge of the block on each side, and under the timing chain cover. Just follow the kit instructions on how to install this little length of gasket, and you'll do fine. I did mine about 4 Christmasses ago, and I don't lose a drop from my timing chain cover or the oil pan up there. If you don't get that little bit of cork, then buy a sheet of 1/8" cork gasket material, then cut one to fit the front upper edge of the pan.



I certainly didn't raise my engine for my job. and can't imagine why you would need to either. Mind you, I CAN, but there is no point for this sort of thing.

Gerald; several people have suggested its a timing problem and not a carburetor problem. I tend to agree so I'll start by trying to rotate the distributor and see if the smoke belching problem doesn't improve. Then I'll check for slackness in the chain by rotating the crank and following the action of the rotor.

Regardless of the results I'm still tempted to change the timing chain cause like the fellow said I'm taking a risk at 80,000 miles of the chain breaking and being stranded some where.

I've been watching a YouTube video ("Unplanned Chevy timing chain ..." Racer X garage) and he claims you need an impact wrench (which I don't have) to remove the crank bolt. Is this right? Can I remove the crank bolt with a breaker bar and socket?

Also the gears (cam and crank) have to be replaced as a set, right. I can't just replace the upper cam gear and leave the crank gear alone? Paul

 

[Gerald Morris]

Gerald; several people have suggested its a timing problem and not a carburetor problem. I tend to agree so I'll start by trying to rotate the distributor and see if the smoke belching problem doesn't improve. Then I'll check for slackness in the chain by rotating the crank and following the action of the rotor.

Regardless of the results I'm still tempted to change the timing chain cause like the fellow said I'm taking a risk at 80,000 miles of the chain breaking and being stranded some where.

I've been watching a YouTube video ("Unplanned Chevy timing chain ..." Racer X garage) and he claims you need an impact wrench (which I don't have) to remove the crank bolt. Is this right? Can I remove the crank bolt with a breaker bar and socket?

Also the gears (cam and crank) have to be replaced as a set, right. I can't just replace the upper cam gear and leave the crank gear alone? Paul

Yah, I too suspect a timing issue, and yes, if you're still running that factory timing chain, REPLACE IT ASAP!!! Rotating the dizzie will help you tune the timing, to a point. GET A TIMING LIGHT for that. Likewise, the diagnostic of hand rotating the crank w a breaker bar, and observing the distributor rotor will help you diagnose the state of the chain and sprocket assembly.

You DON'T NEED ANY IMPACT WRENCH AND IN FACT THAT CHEBBY CHIMP ASSERTING SUCH SHOULD BE FED INTO A WOOD CHIPPER!

Yes, you should obtain a SET of sprockets and chain, OR straight GEARS such as these: Mopar Chrysler BB 383 440 Dual Idler Noisey Timing Gear Drive Set 840136525653 | eBay

Gears are noisy, but give very solid timing. Chains are quiet and flexible. BELTS provide the MOST POWER BY ROBBING THE ENGINE OF THE LEAST BY THEIR LIGHT WEIGHT, but also CO$T the MO$T!

A double roller chain set should do you well. Cloyes or Melling make good stuff, still in the U.S.A. too. I used Enginetech's double roller set, and it serves VERY admirably. I have the Melling double roller set for my next timing chain job. These both are reasonably priced, strong, quiet double roller chain sets. Enginetech is based in Dallas, but they might use Taiwanese steel, which is why I tout Melling more.

 

[Margos Dezirian]

How well is this engine running with smoke belching out of the carb? is it a steady belch or pulsating?
I would pull the valve covers and see if there is anything amiss with the valve train. perhaps an exhaust valve that doesn't open all the way or at all.

Can a video be provided?
I have had timing chains skip a tooth or more and run bad or not at all but I can't say that a consistent belching was a symptom.

 

['66 Fury I]

When I replaced the timing chain & gears in that 63 Chrysler, (see post #17) a "mechanic" had told me it had jumped a couple of teeth. The chain was very loose, but had not jumped. After I replaced the timing set, I found and repaired the real cause of the no-start problem. All this to say that his error led me to do some necessary PM.
When I did that job, I had very little experience and not many tools. The only tool I did not have was a puller for the crank balancer. So I made one from a piece of flat bar and a piece of threaded rod.
Remember this- If someone else can do it, you can do it too- If you learn how. Read, ask questions, think and plan ahead. Lindsay

 

[Dads300]

Since you say it has a new MSD distributor in it, did it do this with the original unit? If not, I’d start with the distributor install and if it was done correctly. I would also find a different mechanic. Anyone who would not hook up and tune the vacuum advance on a street car isn’t the guy you want working on your chrysler
Travis..

 

[spstan]

How well is this engine running with smoke belching out of the carb? is it a steady belch or pulsating?
I would pull the valve covers and see if there is anything amiss with the valve train. perhaps an exhaust valve that doesn't open all the way or at all.

Can a video be provided?
I have had timing chains skip a tooth or more and run bad or not at all but I can't say that a consistent belching was a symptom.

It's not a consistent belching of white smoke. More like an initial throw up of white smoke when I first try to start the car after a day or so. After the smoke clears the car runs smooth and fine. I rebuilt the carburetor and was very careful. The tech at Holley even e-mailed me and said he thought the white smoke was a timing issue and not a carb issue. The reason I want to replace the timing chain is, even if it doesn't fix the problem, some people on this board have thrown scare into me about the car quitting when I am far from home or plastic teeth from the silent gear winding up in the oil pan. I don't need that. Paul

 

[spstan]

Yah, I too suspect a timing issue, and yes, if you're still running that factory timing chain, REPLACE IT ASAP!!! Rotating the dizzie will help you tune the timing, to a point. GET A TIMING LIGHT for that. Likewise, the diagnostic of hand rotating the crank w a breaker bar, and observing the distributor rotor will help you diagnose the state of the chain and sprocket assembly.

You DON'T NEED ANY IMPACT WRENCH AND IN FACT THAT CHEBBY CHIMP ASSERTING SUCH SHOULD BE FED INTO A WOOD CHIPPER!

Yes, you should obtain a SET of sprockets and chain, OR straight GEARS such as these: Mopar Chrysler BB 383 440 Dual Idler Noisey Timing Gear Drive Set 840136525653 | eBay

Gears are noisy, but give very solid timing. Chains are quiet and flexible. BELTS provide the MOST POWER BY ROBBING THE ENGINE OF THE LEAST BY THEIR LIGHT WEIGHT, but also CO$T the MO$T!

A double roller chain set should do you well. Cloyes or Melling make good stuff, still in the U.S.A. too. I used Enginetech's double roller set, and it serves VERY admirably. I have the Melling double roller set for my next timing chain job. These both are reasonably priced, strong, quiet double roller chain sets. Enginetech is based in Dallas, but they might use Taiwanese steel, which is why I tout Melling more.

Gerald; one more question. If I do have a bad timing chain and try to set the timing by adjusting the distributor, without changing the chain, will this new timing setting hold? I mean will a bad timing chain cause the timing setting to stray (wander) from what it was set at? Paul

 

[spstan]

Since you say it has a new MSD distributor in it, did it do this with the original unit? If not, I’d start with the distributor install and if it was done correctly. I would also find a different mechanic. Anyone who would not hook up and tune the vacuum advance on a street car isn’t the guy you want working on your chrysler
Travis..

I don't know Travis, I'm the guy who wanted the MSD distributor because it was advertised as "drop in- ready to run". In addition it eliminates the electronic control unit which would sometimes leave me stranded with no warning. In addition my mechanic drag races Mopars for a hobby so I have to believe he is competent to work on these cars. He claims the total timing is at 34 degrees and that if he hooks up the vacuum advance the timing would be too far advanced and I'd get pinging (detonation).

I'm wondering if he had the timing set correctly and the timing chain was bad, would the timing he initially set start to stray or wander off the original setting? Paul

 

[Gerald Morris]

Gerald; one more question. If I do have a bad timing chain and try to set the timing by adjusting the distributor, without changing the chain, will this new timing setting hold? I mean will a bad timing chain cause the timing setting to stray (wander) from what it was set at? Paul

NO! This is why changing a BAD timing chain is a MUST! If that engine fires a cylinder seriously off time, it can bust rods, drive pistons through the oilpan and such. BAAAAAD ****! You MUST REPLACE A BAD TIMING CHAIN BEFORE YOU WRECK THAT ENGINE! Just be sure it IS BAD before proceeding. Use the test critera you've been provided. A bad chain will skip, or break. If there is gasoline going to cylinders when this occurs, you can destroy the block.

 

[Dads300]

Yeah, drag racers don’t run vacuum advance, nor do lots of hot rod types. 34 degrees is about right for total mechanical, but you really need the vacuum advance on top of that. The vacuum unit can be tuned for rate, and amount of advance. Once tuned it will be seemless. Your engine wants high 40s degrees of advance when under light load to achieve complete combustion and return respectable fuel economy. Without that vacuum can hooked up, your fuel mileage WILL suffer.
Travis..

I just rechecked your original post, and with your low compression engine, you want all of your advance working or it’ll be a gutless turd and fuel swilling pig

 

[spstan]

Yeah, drag racers don’t run vacuum advance, nor do lots of hot rod types. 34 degrees is about right for total mechanical, but you really need the vacuum advance on top of that. The vacuum unit can be tuned for rate, and amount of advance. Once tuned it will be seemless. Your engine wants high 40s degrees of advance when under light load to achieve complete combustion and return respectable fuel economy. Without that vacuum can hooked up, your fuel mileage WILL suffer.
Travis..

I just rechecked your original post, and with your low compression engine, you want all of your advance working or it’ll be a gutless turd and fuel swilling pig

Alright, this has been noted. I will see if I can get the vacuum advance hooked up again. Paul

 

[Gerald Morris]

Read this thread: 440 total timing? - Mopar Forums

Remember, there are no more than 45 degrees between each cylinder. Advance should total out to 34 degrees on these B/RB engines. Even w an MSD distributor, the basic physical geometry applies. You can limit the mech advance, and put a mild, adjustable vacuum advance pot on that. I copped a multisetting advance limiter from 4secondsflat.com and limited my mech advance to 10 degrees, until I'm happy that the vacuum pot doesn't pull too far. It doesn't, so I'll reset my limiter now to the next higher setting, and if needful, dial my initial advance back to 10 degrees, instead of the 12.5 I have now.

Vacuum advance helps an engine pick up and go in lower RPMs, though I helped my current distributor with a venerable Blue Point spring kit I copped from Hoppy. HE is The Man Who Knows about Mopar distributors, and a great many others.....

 

[Dads300]

Here is an excellent article on vacuum advance by Rick ehrenberg of Mopar Action magazine Advance To Go
It is an excellent read

Travis..

 

[spstan]

I say misadjusted choke or choke pulloff, maybe a bad accelerator pump

Mopar; I just rebuilt the carb over the winter. New accelerator pump diaphragm, mechanic checked choke for continuity, Choke and choke pull off are in working order. And Eric from Holley said he'd start with the timing chain.

So the game plan 1) get my neighbor who's a retired mechanic/drag racer to look at distributor job 2) perform crank and rotor test to see if chain is stretched 3) change timing chain even if it passes test cause it has 80,000 mile on original chain and I'd be thinking about that every time I drove the car. Paul

 

[Margos Dezirian]

Sounds Like a Plan!

 

[marty koirtyohann]

I wouldn’t condemn the timing chain for that. It will still happen with a new chain.

$1500? yes labor is expensive.

i would s=change the timing set but replace it with a double row timing set . yhe oem ones r what they called a silent cain . if ub dont change it it may jump / throe the timing chain. i tried to cut corners by not replacing the chain when i replaced the water pump @ 99,000 miles but @ 135k it throw the chain & i bet every valve but 3

 

[spstan]

OK Marty; watching You Tube I thought the worst that could happen with a broken timing chain is that the engine would quit. But you and some other members of the group have put the fear of God into me with your stories. I will change the timing chain. Paul

 

[Gerald Morris]

OK Marty; watching You Tube I thought the worst that could happen with a broken timing chain is that the engine would quit. But you and some other members of the group have put the fear of God into me with your stories. I will change the timing chain. Paul

Yes, the engine certainly will quit, and if running at more than idle, it can quit very CATASTROPHICALLY! Think! The forces required to shove those pistons up and down as they act on 2 tons of load can certainly shear metal, rend flesh, et cetera, if but slightly misdirected. Spending a couple C notes on the parts and carefully DIY comes CHEAP!

 

[spstan]

Yes, the engine certainly will quit, and if running at more than idle, it can quit very CATASTROPHICALLY! Think! The forces required to shove those pistons up and down as they act on 2 tons of load can certainly shear metal, rend flesh, et cetera, if but slightly misdirected. Spending a couple C notes on the parts and carefully DIY comes CHEAP!

OK enough fear, I'm going to change the chain and I hope I can pull it out of the garage and onto ramps without incident.

This has given me more reason to make my next car electric. No timing chains, oil pans, gas tanks or other stuff to worry about. .I'm thinking an electric motor can go 1 million miles with out incidence. Paul

 

['66 Fury I]

I don't see why you would want the car on ramps. Unless your garage is very small, I would be inclined to work inside in a more secure and sheltered space. Just my five cents worth! Lindsay