Cam selected for hot 383. Curious what you think.

I have never heard this, DETAILS please. I would love to read that article.
I've heard that too. Actually, I think Car & Driver used to include that kind of data in their full road tests. I'll check on that but I seem to recall some of those numbers being shockingly low....like 15hp to cruise at 50 mph for some vehicles.
 
I have never heard this, DETAILS please. I would love to read that article.
Gladly.

http://phors.locost7.info/phors06.htm

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Got it. Car & Driver, December 1980. Road horsepower @ 50 mph for a Porsche 928 is 16.0 hp.
Chevy Citation X-11 from the same issue takes 16.5 hp to cruise at 50 mph.
June 1984 C&D shows 14.5 hp for the Dodge 600ES Turbo. It also shows 16.5 hp for the Ford LTD LX and breaks it down thus: 7.5 hp to overcome friction and tire losses and 9.0 hp to overcome aerodynamic drag.

And yes, I collect car magazines......and I hate moving. LOL
 
Awesome. Info-****. LOL
No. It's science.

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The bottom line here is..
My 5,000 lb. NYB with it's frontal area the equivalent of a barn and its original 200 hp smogger engine moves me very quickly at 80 mph with no sweat and the A.C. blowing. Ramps and overcoming trucks on a 2 lane road is done with ease.

Dropping in a nice N/A mildly built 440 into his 68 will be much cheaper, more reliable, more enjoyable to drive and maintain, and achieve the same results.
 
No. It's science.

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The bottom line here is..
My 5,000 lb. NYB with it's frontal area the equivalent of a barn and its original 200 hp smogger engine moves me very quickly at 80 mph with no sweat and the A.C. blowing. Ramps and overcoming trucks on a 2 lane road is done with ease.

Dropping in a nice N/A mildly built 440 into his 68 will be much cheaper, more reliable, more enjoyable to drive and maintain, and achieve the same results.


Stan in an earlier life


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ROTFLMFAO.

That is so accurate, Peter.
Yah, what's the point... :BangHead:
I suppose you're right....except that I already have the 383 and the associated parts. The entire build and parts selection process has been methodical and scientific in nature. Compression ratio, chamber design, piston crown configuration, intake manifold configuration, carb size, etc.....all of it selected to work together.
I've wanted to build something like this since I saw that 200mph Trans Am in the June 1984 issue of Car & Driver. And now I am. Building something other than the "belly button" 440 you mentioned. Sure, it works. And there are a BUNCH of those things running around to prove it. Great. I plan on making a bit more power but with substantially better fuel economy. (I got my '84 Caprice from 20 mpg up to 30 mpg cruising at 70+ mph......with a carb.....and noticeably more power to boot.) It's a systematic approach. All the parts have to work together. I get that. Trust me. I get it.
Sure, I could build a cheaper combo that would make similar power and get the same horrible fuel economy as they always have. My plan is to do something better.
A lot of the cool stuff we have these days was once deemed impossible or unnecessary......like the computers and smart phones we're using right now.
So there you have it. I'm building this motor this way because it's something I've wanted to do for more than 25 years but life kept getting in the way.
 
And I say GO WITH IT and have a blast while doing it.
Life is short. I know exactly why you want to do it and you should grab these opportunities!
I like your thinking
 
How much is this project going to cost? Turbos aren't cheap .
Not sure on total price tag yet. Seems like every time I turn around it's another $400. The turbos themselves can be had relatively cheap IF one doesn't go for the latest & greatest high zoot stuff. I'll be going after some more "old school" T3/T4 hybrid units with plain bearings. Should be able to get them for around $300/each. It's the associated plumbing to make them work where one can start running into some money. That is, if one can't fabricate it themselves. I won't be needing an intercooler at the boost level I'm looking at. That will save some complexity and cost. We'll see....
 
No offense, but I cannot understand your builder's choices of parts given your intentions. You would be MUCH better served running a smaller cam, the cheaper pistons without coatings, and no girdle and then as money comes available, build another shortblock for a turbo. What he's giving you is a horrid mismatch on a bunch of levels. BTW - dyno simulators are just that. They are further from truth than an engine dyno, and worse than a chassis dyno, both of which are easilly manipulated to give outputs you want to hear. The engine will never make those NA numbers, especially with the head, cam, and carb choice. It won't make boost for long, because the pistons will simply shatter when it starts coming up with a load on it. It's simply apples and oranges from boost to N/A, and you've got a mess either way.
 
No offense, but I cannot understand your builder's choices of parts given your intentions. You would be MUCH better served running a smaller cam, the cheaper pistons without coatings, and no girdle and then as money comes available, build another shortblock for a turbo. What he's giving you is a horrid mismatch on a bunch of levels. BTW - dyno simulators are just that. They are further from truth than an engine dyno, and worse than a chassis dyno, both of which are easilly manipulated to give outputs you want to hear. The engine will never make those NA numbers, especially with the head, cam, and carb choice. It won't make boost for long, because the pistons will simply shatter when it starts coming up with a load on it. It's simply apples and oranges from boost to N/A, and you've got a mess either way.
So you're saying I should build TWO engines? Not sure how that's better. Also not sure where the "horrid mismatch" is. The girdle is there for insurance. Helps stabilize the main caps during high rpm running. Smaller cam costs the same as the bigger cam and this cam appears to work well whether the engine is boosted or not. While I agree that some nice forged pistons would be better, the price of any decent forged slugs (that don't weigh 1000g) for a 383 is a little crazy. Besides, these hypers are rated for mild boost and I think 6-9 psi qualifies as "mild". The coatings have been shown to improve durability wherever they are used. DynoSim came pretty darn close to factory claimed numbers for my stock configuration (actually a little lower than the factory claimed) so I think it's "close enough for government work". At the very least, I believe it should be able to point out general trends, even if the actual numbers aren't dead on. It also nailed my friend's 400 SBC build. Take that for whatever it's worth but so far the software is 2 for 2 on actual numbers for actual builds.
Parts selection has been all mine, save for the bolts & bearings. SO, if this thing is such a "horrid mismatch on a bunch of levels" and destined to grenade itself the first time I stick my foot in it, well then it's on me. All these parts were not selected at random. A good deal of research (both on and off the web) went into every single decision. My builder builds race engines for a living and is well respected 'round these parts. He has promised to let me know if I'm doing something stupid with this build and he hasn't stopped me in my tracks yet so..... I told him I wanted an engine built that would run at LEAST 100 mph, continuously, for at LEAST an hour without killing itself. He assured me that would be no problem. Every decision we've made with this build has had that requirement in mind.
That said, I'm happy to hear any ideas as to how to correct this "mess" before we put the fire to it if you know something we don't......and building TWO engines is off the table and the boost-capable bottom end is already done.
BTW: My cam selection is actually milder than that used in Gale Banks' famous twin turbo SBC and those idle @ 800 rpm just fine and make enough vacuum to be very streetable. Of course Rhoads lifters help so I got those too AND my engine is bigger. A bigger engine can help tame an otherwise radical cam.
 
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Not sure on total price tag yet. Seems like every time I turn around it's another $400. The turbos themselves can be had relatively cheap IF one doesn't go for the latest & greatest high zoot stuff. I'll be going after some more "old school" T3/T4 hybrid units with plain bearings. Should be able to get them for around $300/each. It's the associated plumbing to make them work where one can start running into some money. That is, if one can't fabricate it themselves. I won't be needing an intercooler at the boost level I'm looking at. That will save some complexity and cost. We'll see....
I haven't come across any turbo packages for big block Mopars but I have seen some for small block Chevys and they range from $1500 to $5000 price range. Those kits come complete with exhaust manifolds and all the plumbing. I could imagine that the $1500 kits are complete crap.
 
http://www.gearvendors.com/hrdodge3s.html
New engine is coming together. Pistons are off at Swain Tech being coated and I'm still trying to decide on a cam. I think I've got it narrowed down to this one: http://www.crower.com/camshafts/mopar-383-440-b-supercharger-hydraulic-cam-304-hc.html
236* duration @ .050", 114* LSA, .534" lift with my new 1.6 roller rockers. Got me some Edelbrock E-Street heads and KB162 flat top pistons for a 10:1 compression. Ultimately, I plan on adding a couple of turbos making 6-10 psi of boost. Might consider switching to E85 at that point if water injection can't control detonation. I plan on taking the old girl out to Silver State at some point but she will see regular street use. It's a heavy car with 2.75 gears so I'm not really concerned with launching off the line. High speed highway runs is where it's at for this build.
So waddya think? My DynoSim really likes this cam both with and without the turbos.:3gears:
You want to enter this car into an event with a hundred mile road coarse and you need to achieve speeds at or near 200 mph. I was a bit confused at first reading this post but now I get it. Have you considered ditching the turbo idea and maybe spending the money on a Gear Vendors overdrive and a shorter rear end gear such as a 3.23 or 3.55 ratio.
 
http://www.gearvendors.com/hrdodge3s.html You want to enter this car into an event with a hundred mile road coarse and you need to achieve speeds at or near 200 mph. I was a bit confused at first reading this post but now I get it. Have you considered ditching the turbo idea and maybe spending the money on a Gear Vendors overdrive and a shorter rear end gear such as a 3.23 or 3.55 ratio.
Gear Vendors units are really cool. They're also around $2500 last I heard. Father-in-law had one on his GTX. Silver State won't let first-timers run in the unlimited class so I'd have to enter a slower class since I've never done it before. I think that's a smart move for both of us. I was just planning on entering the Touring class and that's limited to 95-115 mph IIRC.
In August of 1996, Hot Rod magazine featured a '68 Charger built for that race (and still streetable) did it with 2.76 rear gears and some old-school tall tires....and managed 191 mph with that setup backing up a pretty stout 440. I think that's plenty fast enough.
 
I haven't come across any turbo packages for big block Mopars but I have seen some for small block Chevys and they range from $1500 to $5000 price range. Those kits come complete with exhaust manifolds and all the plumbing. I could imagine that the $1500 kits are complete crap.
Yeah, I've seen those too. If I was building a Chevy the world would be my oyster. Gonna have to put this setup together piece by piece. Starting with a hp target, I'm working backwards from there to determine what I need.
 
ok firstly, IMO any decently built v8 will sit at 100mph all day every day with no major drama's - regardless of brand or displacement

200mph... wellllllll with the 2.76 and some 28 inch tires you will need to be doing 6600 rpm or so AND putting down around 620 HP AT THE WHEELS (you have some figures close to this already right?)

The (2.7) low gear set will do nothing for your intended purpose (and if you can find one for less than $2k please do let us all know :)), a center swap to 3.23/3.55 for everyday driving would be a better option and the H/way gears for long trips and that competition. The GV unit would achieve all that in one hit though, but it would mean that you need those 620 RWHP to happen at 5200 - a big ask for a 383, even with boost

Are you using stock rods? there are some chev 6.385 rods that will work with those pistons, if your deck is full factory height, they are avialable in 2.2 and 2.1 journals, the 2.1 jobbies are around 100 grams lighter to boot.

You are going to have to nail the timing pretty good too - the stock 1.88 rod/stroke ratio leaves the piston building a lot of pressure at the top of the stoke - add boost and some unwanted bangs may result

What exhaust/intake settings are you using for dyno sim? these are the "very inaccurate" fudge settings on the 2003 version i have. It takes a ton of head flow and camshaft for it to get anywhere near figures like you are quoting for the N/A side - hell if mines under quoting, then i need to beef my trans heaps for my current build lol

There are a few build articles around, some good, some bad. Hot rod magazine has one where they get 450 hp out of a 383 on stock(ish) heads, and plenty of ppl cry bull dust to that build and say its a "happy" dyno - slightly smaller cam to the crower duration wise but much more lift - check the flow figures on your heads - they have figures up to 600 lift - you could have more potential hp using .050-80 more lift than the cam you are looking at - definite need for springs and rockers though

I like the idea of your build and would love to see it work well, especially the turbo's vs fuel economy, but like most of the others have said, more cubes/stroke would have been better - even just to reduce the rod ratio, and at that hp level i would have gone straight to a forged piston - what are those coatings costing? have never looked into it
 
200 mph would be really cool but doing that in a car without a full cage didn't seem very wise to me. Maybe later on....with a different car. This one's too nice to cut up for a cage. In any case, DynoSim5 shows me putting 596 hp to the wheels at 6500 rpm.

The low gear set is just to get the revs up into a more usable range sooner during daily street use. Kind of like having a 3.23 gear around town and 2.76 on the highway....without having to swap gears. Still playing around with that option though. Still cheaper than the GV unit and the custom driveshaft it requires....but I do like the GV unit. Bulletproof things.

Stock rods for this build. Polished side beams, magnafluxed, shot peened, resized. Before I put the boost to it, I may be forced to upgrade though. Ditto for the pistons. Chevy rods would be fine but for the .990 wrist pins they use vs the 1.094 Chrysler pins. Also, turning my rod journals down far enough to use them is really expensive and seemed a little sketchy to me. Piston and rod choices for 383s really suck.....unless you're building a stroker.
Had I known at the beginning of this build what I know now, I'd have just bought a stroker kit and been done with it. By the time one gets done messing around with getting some decent rods and custom pistons to fit them done, the cost of a stroker kit looks pretty good. Flatlander racing quoted me $1760 for a set of forged pistons for this build.....JUST because of the big Chrysler wrist pins that "nobody uses". That's crazy. Not doing that. I figured that since I already had a nice forged crank and rods I might as well use them. Had the crank come up bad, I would've junked it & got the stroker kit. Crank tested good. Had ANY of the rods come up bad I would've junked them and got me a $700 set of aftermarket rods. All rods came up good. Funny. Even 440Source doesn't sell any good rods for a stock displacement 383 with the big Chrysler wrist pin.
Again, if I was doing it again I'd build a stroker 383, 400, or 440. MUCH easier and cheaper to get really good parts for those. Hell, I've already GOT a really NICE set of forged 440 rods I was going to use until Flatlander Racing more than doubled the price they originally quoted me for some pistons to fit them. UGH. Really wanted to use those rods too.
That said, I think the shorter 6.358 rods will make the engine more streetable. Reduced dwell at TDC and faster acceleration away from TDC should reduce the tendency to knock. Retarded cam timing should help too. No pressure builds until the intake valve closes. Also, this is a quench motor. Only .035" quench clearance at TDC (minimum recommended by Edelbrock with their heads) achieved with pistons .005" down at TDC and .030" MLS gaskets. Tight quench should be good for chamber turbulence and reducing the temps of the mix at the far reaches of the chambers. Flat top pistons are better for flame propagation than domes for the same compression ratio. Piston crowns have also had the valve reliefs smoothed prior to being coated. No sharp edges to act like glow plugs in MY combustion spaces.

I considered using factory 906 heads but by the time they're doctored enough to get the flow and compression anywhere near what I needed, I'd have spent more than just buying the Edelbrock E-Street heads (part #5090) with 75cc chambers and no port work whatsoever.

One weakness of hypereutectic pistons is the fact their crowns run hotter than forgings. Hypers lose strength faster with rising temps than do forgings. Hence the TBC on my hyper crowns. Keep their temps down to retain as much strength as possible. Coatings to keep temps down, tight chambers and flat tops to speed the flame and improve mixing, and short-ish rods to speed pressure decay ATDC should all conspire to make it live on 93 octane with water/methanol injection. Failing that, I'll just switch to E85 and be done with it.
I went with 10:1 compression for better response and fuel economy off-boost. The turbos would then be needed for just a little added power & torque. Low compression, high boost motors can make some crazy power numbers but they're really sluggish until the boost comes on. And then when it does come on, it can be a pretty violent transition. I'm looking for something a bit more civilized and, dare I say "practical"?

Not sure what you mean by "intake and exhaust settings" but I'll try to answer. I used flow data for my heads published by Edelbrock and added that to DynoSim5's stored .flw files. Is that what you were asking?
I'm using PRW stainless 1.6:1 roller rockers and Comp's Beehive springs. The cam I've selected gets me as close to my coil bind limit as I'm comfortable with.

Of course building power is easier with more cubes but I've always liked the idea of turbos for "displacement on demand". There's something elegant about getting that done with a thing that will fit in the palm of your hand and has ONE moving part. Very cool. I believe that power and fuel economy CAN coexist. I proved it at a lower level with my old Caprice and I aim to prove it again and at a higher level with this 383 build. There are also a few little tricks I'll be using with this setup that will help make it all possible. I'll share more as testing and development continues. I'll be doing some things I've never seen done. Either it'll work or I'll be starting over.

Swain Tech is who I went with for the coating work. I've been reading about them and their work for about 30 years (back when I was young, enthusiastic, and completely broke).
You can go here: http://swaintech.com/race-coatings/automotive-coatings/ to find out more. There's a link to their price list there too. Interestingly, they're the ONLY coatings provider that has prices listed online. All the others want you to call them for prices. Swain has been doing this for a long time and they're not afraid to tell you what it's going to cost. I think my piston coatings are going to cost me around $350 with shipping. Don't remember what the estimate is for getting my valves done. Since exhaust valves have been shown to be the hottest parts in the chamber I think it's a good idea to get them done to help curb detonation.
Hope this helps. Sorry I'm so long-winded.
 
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