Cam selected for hot 383. Curious what you think.

72Fury said:
Any preference or reason for a single cam bolt or 3 bolt cam?
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Actually, I THOUGHT I was getting a 3-bolt cam. Total face-palm moment. Now I'm not sure this cam will work for me. 7000rpm and a HV oil pump seems like a bad idea to me with a single bolt and just the drive pin to handle all that torque. Hmmm. Going to call Crower today and see what they say. It seems to me that lots of guys have raced lots of these motors for quite a few years without incident. 3 bolts seem like good insurance though.
I'm really torn on this. If I keep the cam, I need a different timing set since I already bought a 3-bolt set (DERP).
If I use the set I have then I need a new cam. The Crane H-278-2 is getting the nod if I go that route. Costs me about 50 horses up top but stronger than the Crower 304HC below 5000 rpm. The Crane might actually be the wiser choice but not sure I want to give up the top end.
Ugh.... Can't believe I missed that.

Oh, sorry so slow to respond. Got busy with too many projects all at once.
 
FinallyGot1 said:
Actually, I THOUGHT I was getting a 3-bolt cam. Total face-palm moment. Now I'm not sure this cam will work for me. 7000rpm and a HV oil pump seems like a bad idea to me with a single bolt and just the drive pin to handle all that torque. Hmmm. Going to call Crower today and see what they say. It seems to me that lots of guys have raced lots of these motors for quite a few years without incident. 3 bolts seem like good insurance though.
I'm really torn on this. If I keep the cam, I need a different timing set since I already bought a 3-bolt set (DERP).
If I use the set I have then I need a new cam. The Crane H-278-2 is getting the nod if I go that route. Costs me about 50 horses up top but stronger than the Crower 304HC below 5000 rpm. The Crane might actually be the wiser choice but not sure I want to give up the top end.
Ugh.... Can't believe I missed that.

Oh, sorry so slow to respond. Got busy with too many projects all at once.
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I didn't see any info on your oiling system. I hope your running a BIG pan and a hemi pickup tube with your HV pump. A stock pan will empty itself in a hurry with a HV pump at 7000RPM. Even though your combo will never come close to hitting 7grand. More like 5800.
 
hotrodharley66 said:
I didn't see any info on your oiling system. I hope your running a BIG pan and a hemi pickup tube with your HV pump. A stock pan will empty itself in a hurry with a HV pump at 7000RPM. Even though your combo will never come close to hitting 7grand. More like 5800.
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5800? How do you figure that?
And yes, I'm running a deep sump pan. Elected not to go with the Hemi pickup after talking w a lot of Mopar guys. The general theme was that it couldn't hurt but wasn't absolutely necessary. I have a plan B if new information comes my way though....
I am very interested where the 5800 number comes from though.....
 
You'll never see 7000RPM with those E Street heads, hydraulic cam, and a more or less stock rotating assembly. If you want to come close you'll need different valve springs, titanium retainers, a mechanical roller cam(preferably) or at the very least flat tappet mechanical. And if you try to push it to 7000 with what you've got things will come apart. Just because your dyno sim gives you numbers up to 7000 does not mean it will equate to reality. With what you're looking to accomplish with your combo a lot of things have to change. Just stick to your current plan. Get the car done. Get it on a chassis dyno and tuned. Then you'll know exactly what it can and can't do.
 
hotrodharley66 said:
You'll never see 7000RPM with those E Street heads, hydraulic cam, and a more or less stock rotating assembly. If you want to come close you'll need different valve springs, titanium retainers, a mechanical roller cam(preferably) or at the very least flat tappet mechanical. And if you try to push it to 7000 with what you've got things will come apart. Just because your dyno sim gives you numbers up to 7000 does not mean it will equate to reality. With what you're looking to accomplish with your combo a lot of things have to change. Just stick to your current plan. Get the car done. Get it on a chassis dyno and tuned. Then you'll know exactly what it can and can't do.
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Firstly, please try to keep in mind that DynoSim is not my sole source of info. It's a virtual testbed. Secondly, also know that I've been an engine freak since I learned to read. I've read about more actual builds than I can remember.....hundreds if not thousands of builds done by regular people, magazine guys, dirt trackers, drag guys, Formula 1 teams, and everything in between. Just because I didn't do it myself doesn't mean it's irrelevant or didn't happen. I've seen 7000rpm hydraulic cam builds that worked just fine. My build has better valve springs than stock and those engines went to 6000rpm all the time. My dad had one and so did his brothers. The steel retainers on my beehive springs are lighter than Ti retainers on conventional sized dual springs so that's covered. I've discussed my build with Comp Cams and Crower and they both feel my combo will be fine to 7000rpm. The E-Street heads flow WAY better than all but the very BE$T ported factory heads and there are guys making some very respectable power with factory heads (referring to the black Charger referenced earlier in this thread.......damn cool car. Check it out.)
"More or less stock rotating assembly"? Factory forged crank is pretty stout if you haven't heard. Eagle H-Beam rods are far from stock. And the hypereutectic pistons on top have been shown good to 775bhp. They also get the nod from Corky Bell, author of Maximum Boost. He knows a thing or 2 about what it takes to get a successful boosted build.
So my crank is good, rods are good, pistons are good, heads are good, springs are good, cam is good. Relatively gentle ramp rates on the cam will help reduce the chances of valve float/bounce and my lifters have been shown stable to 7000rpm.
In STOCK form these engines would go beyond 5800rpm and my build stomps all over what the factory did with these "back in the day" so I think we're good for at LEAST 6500rpm (referencing the redline Crower claims for this cam).

That said, my single.....biggest.....fear......is that I'm going to screw something up during engine assembly. I've never built an engine before and I'm petrified I'm going to screw up something stupid-simple while putting it together. My engine builder is busy building race engines for anyone who's anyone in any kind of racing around here so it's a long wait for Yours Truly if I want him to put it together. I see that as a message from The Almighty that I'M supposed to do this part.

Please forgive me if I seem a bit hostile but this engine has been rocking around in my head, growing, changing, evolving, for 30+ years and it's a part of me. Saying it's destined to be a spectacular failure feels like a bit of a personal attack.

Anyway, it's about time for me to go to bed (3rd shift sucks when the weather's nice). Thanks for your input and may the Force be with you. :)
 
FinallyGot1 said:
Firstly, please try to keep in mind that DynoSim is not my sole source of info. It's a virtual testbed. Secondly, also know that I've been an engine freak since I learned to read. I've read about more actual builds than I can remember.....hundreds if not thousands of builds done by regular people, magazine guys, dirt trackers, drag guys, Formula 1 teams, and everything in between. Just because I didn't do it myself doesn't mean it's irrelevant or didn't happen. I've seen 7000rpm hydraulic cam builds that worked just fine. My build has better valve springs than stock and those engines went to 6000rpm all the time. My dad had one and so did his brothers. The steel retainers on my beehive springs are lighter than Ti retainers on conventional sized dual springs so that's covered. I've discussed my build with Comp Cams and Crower and they both feel my combo will be fine to 7000rpm. The E-Street heads flow WAY better than all but the very BE$T ported factory heads and there are guys making some very respectable power with factory heads (referring to the black Charger referenced earlier in this thread.......damn cool car. Check it out.)
"More or less stock rotating assembly"? Factory forged crank is pretty stout if you haven't heard. Eagle H-Beam rods are far from stock. And the hypereutectic pistons on top have been shown good to 775bhp. They also get the nod from Corky Bell, author of Maximum Boost. He knows a thing or 2 about what it takes to get a successful boosted build.
So my crank is good, rods are good, pistons are good, heads are good, springs are good, cam is good. Relatively gentle ramp rates on the cam will help reduce the chances of valve float/bounce and my lifters have been shown stable to 7000rpm.
In STOCK form these engines would go beyond 5800rpm and my build stomps all over what the factory did with these "back in the day" so I think we're good for at LEAST 6500rpm (referencing the redline Crower claims for this cam).

That said, my single.....biggest.....fear......is that I'm going to screw something up during engine assembly. I've never built an engine before and I'm petrified I'm going to screw up something stupid-simple while putting it together. My engine builder is busy building race engines for anyone who's anyone in any kind of racing around here so it's a long wait for Yours Truly if I want him to put it together. I see that as a message from The Almighty that I'M supposed to do this part.

Please forgive me if I seem a bit hostile but this engine has been rocking around in my head, growing, changing, evolving, for 30+ years and it's a part of me. Saying it's destined to be a spectacular failure feels like a bit of a personal attack.

Anyway, it's about time for me to go to bed (3rd shift sucks when the weather's nice). Thanks for your input and may the Force be with you. :)
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Fair enough. 6500rpm maybe. But in the long run it won't last. 7000 will kill it in no time. Like I said. Build it. Get it done. Chassis dyno and tune and GO FAST..! :thumbsup:
 
FinallyGot1 said:
Nothing lasts if the run is long enough. :)
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We run a blown iron block 540 big block chevy in our funny car making 2000HP. The engine shop that builds it uses the same motor in race boats which run flat out for hours. We run a full season on one set of valve springs. Get two seasons out of the rods and pistons. And 4 out of the block and crank. Why..? Because we use top notch MATCHED parts in a proven combo by one of the best engine shops around. I've built many motors and cars. And 9 times out of 10 when someone pieces together all kinds of parts trying to stay on a budget sh*t goes wrong.
 
hotrodharley66 said:
We run a blown iron block 540 big block chevy in our funny car making 2000HP. The engine shop that builds it uses the same motor in race boats which run flat out for hours. We run a full season on one set of valve springs. Get two seasons out of the rods and pistons. And 4 out of the block and crank. Why..? Because we use top notch MATCHED parts in a proven combo by one of the best engine shops around. I've built many motors and cars. And 9 times out of 10 when someone pieces together all kinds of parts trying to stay on a budget sh*t goes wrong.
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Agreed. You are absolutely correct.

My build is nowhere near that caliber. I've always admired boat motors' ability to go so hard for so long
Almost 4hp/cid is respectable by any standard. I'm only looking for about 2hp/cid that will survive on pump gas. It's been done before with comparable and even lesser parts than what I'm using.
And I won't be running flat out for hours.....maybe a half hour....if at all. The math works out to 204mph @ 6500rpm w this tire diameter & gears. Will I ever try it? Prolly not (with THIS car anyway).
Proven Chevy combos are a dime a dozen. I mean, there are SO MANY parts & suppliers out there for anything with a bow-tie. They're a bit harder to come by for a Mopar guy NOT running a stroker, 440, or Hemi. I'm in somewhat uncharted territory. I can only make educated guesses. (If another motor with a longer stroke and these pistons revs to 7200 with stock rods then it stands to reason mine will too, but with better rods. That is, if valvetrain component weight, stiffness, and quality are all equal.)

I've been up too long. I'm enjoying this though. Sorry if I'm rambling on. Just getting a bit foggy is all. Have a good one. :)
 
FinallyGot1 said:
I've never built an engine before and I'm petrified I'm going to screw up something stupid-simple while putting it together.
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Just be careful...

And for the comment on the crank and rods - I am going to assume it was mentioned not due to power limits (like you countered) but due to high rpm limits as they are extremely heavy. Also, the rods you mentioned are heavy. I rev my 413 to about 6k and in third gear to 6,300 which was GPS verified as 131mph. With a heavy rotating assembly its probably a matter of time before something happens.

What balancer are you going to run? I didnt see one mentioned.
 
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fury413rb said:
Just be careful...

And for the comment on the crank and rods - I am going to assume it was mentioned not due to power limits (like you countered) but due to high rpm limits as they are extremely heavy. Also, the rods you mentioned are heavy. I rev my 413 to about 6k and in third gear to 6,300 which was GPS verified as 131mph. With a heavy rotating assembly its probably a matter of time before something happens.

What balancer are you going to run? I didnt see one mentioned.
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Funny you mention rod weight. I had the whole balancing thing done and it was weird. (Well, I thought it was weird.) My pistons are noticeably lighter than the factory cast but the heavy rods made it balance out about the same as the stock combo. I don't have my build sheet in front of me right now so I can't give numbers but it was very close to stock balancing requirements.
Balancer: Right now I have a SFI certified fluid damper from 440Source. I was hoping that'd be good enough. I really like the TCI Rattler though......
I got the Eagle H-beam rods because, at the time, the info I'd found said the factory 383 rods wouldn't hold up past about 500hp or so and getting custom pistons made for the aftermarket 440 rods I already had was insanely expensive. Different story if I was building a stroker. I had my factory forged crank checked six ways from Sunday and it was deemed solid so I decided to use it.
I figured adding a girdle (also from 440Source) would help stabilize the bottom end. Of course, the whole shebang was align bored with studs & girdle torqued in place. Boring was done with VERY minimal material (MAYbe .001") taken from the block side so no special timing chain set required.

One reason I stayed with the stock stroke 383 is to keep piston speeds down. At 7000rpm I think my piston speed is just under 3950 ft/min. I expect your 413 is a bit higher than that and thus, harder on parts at any given engine speed.

I'll have to double check my speed math and get back to you.

Edit: I used an online calculator here: Calculate GEAR, RPM, MPH, TIRE DIAMETER and came up with 204mph at 6500rpm with 29 inch tall tires and 2.75 gears.
 
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FinallyGot1 said:
Funny you mention rod weight. I had the whole balancing thing done and it was weird. (Well, I thought it was weird.) My pistons are noticeably lighter than the factory cast but the heavy rods made it balance out about the same as the stock combo. I don't have my build sheet in front of me right now so I can't give numbers but it was very close to stock balancing requirements.
Balancer: Right now I have a SFI certified fluid damper from 440Source. I was hoping that'd be good enough. I really like the TCI Rattler though......
I got the Eagle H-beam rods because, at the time, the info I'd found said the factory 383 rods wouldn't hold up past about 500hp or so and getting custom pistons made for the aftermarket 440 rods I already had was insanely expensive. Different story if I was building a stroker. I had my factory forged crank checked six ways from Sunday and it was deemed solid so I decided to use it.
I figured adding a girdle (also from 440Source) would help stabilize the bottom end. Of course, the whole shebang was align bored with studs & girdle torqued in place. Boring was done with VERY minimal material (MAYbe .001") taken from the block side so no special timing chain set required.

One reason I stayed with the stock stroke 383 is to keep piston speeds down. At 7000rpm I think my piston speed is just under 3950 ft/min. I expect your 413 is a bit higher than that and thus, harder on parts at any given engine speed.

I'll have to double check my speed math and get back to you.

Edit: I used an online calculator here: Calculate GEAR, RPM, MPH, TIRE DIAMETER and came up with 204mph at 6500rpm with 29 inch tall tires and 2.75 gears.
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The 440 source balancer will work fine.

If you decide to switch balancers ATI is pretty much the go to for everyone.

When did you start this build..?
 
Make sure you radius the oil pick up turn in the block for those rpms, I do it for every one I have apart but with high rpm it becomes a must.
 
hotrodharley66 said:
The 440 source balancer will work fine.

If you decide to switch balancers ATI is pretty much the go to for everyone.

When did you start this build..?
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Started buying parts about a year ago. Engine guy is swamped pretty much all the time with racers on a deadline so I kinda get pushed back every now & then. Suits me fine really. I still need to upgrade the brakes & do some front end work.
It also gives me time to research parts choices, sources, and gather info step-by-step. Oh and there's also the small matter of $$$. I don't want to go cheap on anything but I also don't want to just throw money around like I'm made of it either. Engine coatings, machine work, tools I've never owned or used, etc, etc, ad nauseum.
I know I'm slow as hell but I've never done this before and I don't want to build a really expensive grenade. Learning a lot at every step too.
 
70bigblockdodge said:
Make sure you radius the oil pick up turn in the block for those rpms, I do it for every one I have apart but with high rpm it becomes a must.
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But FIRST I have to replace the fuel tank sending unit gasket. Got a puddle of premium under the old girl. UGH
 
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