Cam selected for hot 383. Curious what you think.

It's always interesting, discussions about engine builds/cams are almost like discussing religion or politics..........

regardless of the initial build, if the intent is to go turbo - I would completely agree that building the motor for the turbos is the best plan. With that said, the newly built engine will far exceed the output of your old 2bbl 383.

A few aluminum items added and you'll be a flyweight c-body - relocating the battery will assist in weight transfer and will help with some of the front weight of the added turbos.

i like 383s....... They are abundant, they are dimensionally smaller and lighter than 440s and rev closer to small block limits. 383s also all have forged cranks - another bonus.

What I'm waiting for is pics ..........
 
Top Heavy said:
It's always interesting, discussions about engine builds/cams are almost like discussing religion or politics..........

regardless of the initial build, if the intent is to go turbo - I would completely agree that building the motor for the turbos is the best plan. With that said, the newly built engine will far exceed the output of your old 2bbl 383.

A few aluminum items added and you'll be a flyweight c-body - relocating the battery will assist in weight transfer and will help with some of the front weight of the added turbos.

i like 383s....... They are abundant, they are dimensionally smaller and lighter than 440s and rev closer to small block limits. 383s also all have forged cranks - another bonus.

What I'm waiting for is pics ..........
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I like aluminum too. So far, I've got aluminum heads, intake manifold, water pump, and radiator. While the new exhaust won't be aluminum, it also won't have cast iron manifolds. Might help balance out the turbos a little. Fairly large holding tank for the water/methanol injection will also be in the trunk and I like the rear mounted battery idea.

I like 383s too. Partially because so many people just pass them by in favor of 440s and Hemis. The more people tell me to toss my 383 for a 440, the more I want to go out and get another 383.....but stroke it for the next build.

Pics will come as fast as my feeble mind can remember to take them. LOL
 
ahh, the 1.6 rockers will give you that .530+ lift, well done :)

My (older version) of the sim lets you set the type of manifold ie stock, single/dual plane, high torque/RPM and similar settings for the exhaust, open headers, stock, full exhaust - these settings fudge the figures around a lot - I generally use the more sedate settings

There is a weight loss thread by fullmetaljacket on moparts that has 80 odd pages to go through, a bit crap in there but full of gold none the less, you can go ally after the mufflers quite comfortably according to him. You may wish to do some diy cornering scales to get the weight front and back (and the sides) sorted - 4 cheap bathroom scales and some clever math using levers.

If you want the ultimate sleeper, check out over diff turbos, kills any semblance of an exhaust noise, but keeps the heat out of the engine bay, the pipes running the air forward act as an intercooler - and puts weight further back

I havent had a good look at the silver state run rules - but surely they dont let you run in the open category without a cage? - we had a "cannonball run" over here around 10 years ago in the northern territory where they had unlimited speed limits in sections on public roads (recently dropped to a mere 100 mph lol), on the 3rd(?) year some tool in a sideways Ferrari killed a couple of officials, so they stopped it, so the closest thing here is salt racing, drags and the odd club day on a race track, sadness

I am just having a 440 crank turned down for my 383, the crank i got cheap is pretty wasted, if you were trying to put stock rods on it would be on .030 - .040 over bearings, so im sucking it up and spending the money on an offset grind (aprox $600 AUD), 6.7 molinar chev rods ($560 US at various places) and 1.32 diamond forged pistons ($640 US @ mancini), over 2 lbs loss on the crank balancing and around 5.5 lbs less on the moving parts and an extra 60 cubes vs what you are building, lots of homework went into this one - due to the trashed crank im not going to get the 3.91 stroke out of it (prob 3.89, waiting on a phone call lol), but a few cubes less aint going to kill me
 
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Alchemi said:
ahh, the 1.6 rockers will give you that .530+ lift, well done :)

My (older version) of the sim lets you set the type of manifold ie stock, single/dual plane, high torque/RPM and similar settings for the exhaust, open headers, stock, full exhaust - these settings fudge the figures around a lot - I generally use the more sedate settings

There is a weight loss thread by fullmetaljacket on moparts that has 80 odd pages to go through, a bit crap in there but full of gold none the less, you can go ally after the mufflers quite comfortably according to him. You may wish to do some diy cornering scales to get the weight front and back (and the sides) sorted - 4 cheap bathroom scales and some clever math using levers.

If you want the ultimate sleeper, check out over diff turbos, kills any semblance of an exhaust noise, but keeps the heat out of the engine bay, the pipes running the air forward act as an intercooler - and puts weight further back

I havent had a good look at the silver state run rules - but surely they dont let you run in the open category without a cage? - we had a "cannonball run" over here around 10 years ago in the northern territory where they had unlimited speed limits in sections on public roads (recently dropped to a mere 100 mph lol), on the 3rd(?) year some tool in a sideways Ferrari killed a couple of officials, so they stopped it, so the closest thing here is salt racing, drags and the odd club day on a race track, sadness

I am just having a 440 crank turned down for my 383, the crank i got cheap is pretty wasted, if you were trying to put stock rods on it would be on .030 - .040 over bearings, so im sucking it up and spending the money on an offset grind (aprox $600 AUD), 6.7 molinar chev rods ($450-500 US at various places) and 1.32 diamond forged pistons ($640 US @ mancini), over 2 lbs loss on the crank balancing and around 5.5 lbs less on the moving parts and an extra 60 cubes vs what you are building, lots of homework went into this one - due to the trashed crank im not going to get the 3.91 stroke out of it (prob 3.89, waiting on a phone call lol), but a few cubes less aint going to kill me
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Thanks. :) I figured the 1.6 rockers would be an easy way to make any off-the-shelf cam a bit more radical. Since I'd decided at the outset to use roller rockers, they were already in the budget and 1.6s cost about the same as 1.5s.

Ahh, THOSE settings. Duh. Sorry. I gave both the N/A and boosted versions a "dual plane, high flow" intake manifold. "Dual plane, max flow" was the next step up but I figured that'd be the proper choice for a custom sheet metal intake, whereas I'll be using an Edelbrock Performer RPM. High flow certainly but probably not the max possible.
For the exhaust, I gave the N/A version "Large tube headers, mufflers w/o cat". I plan on using DynoMax mufflers which have been shown to flow better than a straight pipe of the same diameter so I might actually do better than the sim says. The boosted version got "Large tube headers, open exhaust" since I don't plan on there being any restriction in the exhaust other than the turbos themselves.

Considered rear mount turbos. Neat idea but moving the turbos so far away from the engine changes A/R ratio requirements and turbo response. Plus, I'm not sure about having my air intake so close to the ground....rocks, rain, flash flood, whatever happens to fall off a truck, etc.....makes me nervous. That combined with the need for suspension travel and having those hot turbos so close to my gas tank. Idunno. I also kind of like the aesthetics of a couple of turbos under the hood.

Your 440 crank sounds cool. That's the kind of mental exercise I really get into. I considered something similar for a stroker version of my 383. Decided against it once my 383's factory forged crank tested good and needed minimal cleenup (only .010/.010). After reading yours, maybe I should've done it anyway so I could use Chevy rods and get some decent pistons. I like it.
 
I understand a bit more given your responses. I appreciate you explaining. Just so you know where I'm coming from - I've built my fair share of engines and cars. Big and small blocks, and helped on some others. One being a turbo chevy stovebolt effort that at the time ran in the 9s. My own C body ran from Westchester County NY, to Vernon CT in 1hr 8min. That's an average speed of 108+mph. That car had a mild 383 in it, and 3.55s. That was in 1989 when I was still in my teens. The last 383/496 I built is currently making 1.15hp/inch through stock exhaust manifolds and a small solid lifter cam. It won Stock Appearing in it's E body class at Carlisle last year. I've modified cars for customers that road race. If you want to sling a car around at 150+ I've done it in my own and customers'. I deal in realty. Dyno sims, even the ones I own, are not reality. You have some mistakes in parts and prep. First - the block. You don't need a girdle. You need main studs and steel caps. A girdle spreads a little load to the oil pan rails, but the main webbing above the bearing bores is the weak spot. You will end up with cracks above the girdle with your expected ultimate power level. That is assuming you ever reach it. The rods - stock rods are not strong enough for boost, have questionable strength at the parting lines, and are tremendously heavy when compared to a real performance I beam. Any weight you have to sling around takes more power, and needs more strength to hold it - the rods are part of both the rotational mass and reciprocating mass. Lighter is best here. Pistons are not as important because they are only reciprocating mass. You are much better served getting a good set of I beam rods for sustained rpm and boost. The pistons - hypereutectic pistons can take soem abuse. I use them a lot. But, they can't take detonation very well and they don't deal with high localized heat very well. Nor do they protect the rings very well in boosted situations. If you are dyno tuning the induction (assuming you are here just to get it drivable regardless of EFI or carbureted) and it detonates, you run a good chance of the ring lands breaking off. I listened to more than one Ford Mod motor doing the same thing when I ran a chassis dyno shop. Nevermind letting off after full boost and having the engine go lean momentarilly on the highway. You really need a forged piston. Not for the good running times, but for the bad. Always overbuild when you deal with boost. Coatings do help, but coating a hyper piston is like painting a wood dowel to look like steel. It looks the part but doesn't have the backbone. On the cam - A turbo engine needs a special camshaft. Lift and duration are not the most important elements of them because you basically just push more air in. LSA and ICL are critical especially in a heavy car. A naturally aspirated engine, at least one that needs to make power NA, needs a completely different cam. On the turbos - if you're not looking at compressor maps and planning for what you need, rather than what's available inexpensively, you run the ris kof spending some cash and getting very, very little. In terms of hot-rodded power there are a lot more turbo setups not making the hoped-for power than those making it. Again - it's your car. Having tried to make a garnet into a diamond I feel you would be MUCH better served using this one as a NA mid-power-level plant, and then locating a block and building the monster on that base. I'm a guy that's been there and done that in terms of hat you're doing so take the constructive criticism as you will. I look forward to seeing it all turn out successfully for you regardless.
 
Thanks for the input, moper.
I'll have to give your post the attention and response it deserves later....probably tomorrow after I get home from work. See, I'm a 3rd shifter and it's time for me to get to bed.

Good to get some real-world input.

Real quick though: I am using studs with the girdle.....but not the steel caps. I did find a nice set of H-beam rods for $500.

TTYL
 
moper-
While I may not "need" the bottom end girdle, I figured it couldn't hurt. Call it a little insurance. Having the block align bored with the studs and girdle in place seemed like a smart move. My goal was to stabilize the main caps and tie them to the main webs a bit better than stock. I've heard a girdle will increase the power capacity of the block up to something around 750 hp....at least for short stints. I don't plan on ever trying to maintain that power output for any extended period though.

I think you're probably right on the rods though. Maybe I'll hold off on assembly for a couple paychecks....maybe sell some extra parts....and get some better rods.

Pistons. Well, I've already got around $800 total investment in my KB hypers so I think I'll just have to make do. I HAVE heard that hypers aren't so good at dealing with ANY amount of detonation. Some say they're even less detonation tolerant than stock cast pistons. Not sure I understand that but that seems to be the general consensus. Anyway, they're a couple hundred grams lighter than stock. Lighter pistons seem like they should put less stress on the rods (any rods) at any given engine speed. Accelerating that piston weight from zero to 60 and bringing it back to zero mph in less than 4 inches is a helluva lot of stress for the rods to deal with. Less weight = less stress on the rod. Now, that doesn't mean I'm dead sure my stock rods will be "just fine". It DOES mean that, at the very least, they'll be less inertial stress than with the factory slugs or a cheap set of forged ones. Even though my stock rods have had the parting lines ground down and smoothly blended to eliminate stress risers (courtesy of Yours Truly), shot peened, and upgraded with ARP bolts, I agree they're not the best possible choice. May have to rethink that part of the build.....

Cam. My cam's lift, duration, and LSA are similar to what Gale Banks used in his turbo sbc motors "back in the day" so I think it'll be fine. I figure if it was good enough for a 600-800 hp 350 sbc, then it should be okay for a 600-700 hp 383 bbm. My power density is a little lower and my cam is a little tamer, but I think my heads are a little better.
Any number of successful turbo builds have been done with stock cams and mine's better than any stock cam I've been able to find. Also, some very good boosted motors have been done with cams very similar to mine and have good idle vacuum, agreeable street manners, and excellent power output. While a pure turbo build might do BETTER with a purpose-made turbo cam, I don't think this Crower cam will be anything to sneeze at. Relying on the turbo to just shove more air through smaller holes that are open for less time only works up to a point....and you'll still have an engine not running up to it's potential. A 12psi motor with that philosophy could be an 8psi motor with better heads and a better cam. Ran into a guy with a turbo slant-6 that has discovered just that. More boost is only more power IF the boost makes it to the combustion chamber. A too-small cam and/or restrictive heads prevent that from happening. His -6 makes the same power with 30 psi as it does at 20. Can't get the air where it needs to be so it's not "true boost". Lift and duration absolutely DO matter....up to the limitation of the heads.

My expectation is that I'll drive it N/A for a while while I track down the proper turbos and find a shop I feel comfortable with to put it all together.

Turbos. Inexpensive turbos aren't necessarily "bad". They may just not be the latest and greatest thing that so many people think they need.

In summation: I think you're right on the pistons but I already have a good deal invested in the ones I have so they'll have to do for now. Next build will absolutely be different.
Can't argue with you on rod choice. Might get the good ones for this build. Pocketbook might make me wait for the NEXT build. Pistons and rods may very well conspire to make me skip the boost altogether on this build.......dammit.
Either way I think my cam will be okay. Better be 'cuz I already ordered the thing. Might consider different rear gears though..... Have to crunch the numbers & see how it looks.

Thanks again for your input. :)

Decided to bite the bullet & get some good Eagle H-Beam rods. Can't believe I was about to put this thing together withOUT some decent rods. (I thought the factory forged WERE decent.) Thanks for the nudge, moper.
 
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This project is beginning to look like one big money pit. How much are you looking at actually spending? I have around $9000 invested in a fuel injected 470 stroker that is naturally aspirated and running close to 500 hp.

From what I gather in some of your earlier comments money seems to be an issue and I am also hearing talk of cutting corners. You plan on running twin turbos on a carburated motor with 10:1 compression and you want to eliminate the use of an intercooler to save money. I heard you mention water injection systems but those aren't cheap either. A methanol injection system will easily set you back $400 or more. I hope you don't plan on running your stock radiator. A new radiator will easily cost you $400 or more. You will need a really good oil cooler if you plan on running turbos. That's more money. All the little odds and ends are going to slowly nickel and dime you to death. The dollar sign I'm looking at in my head is about $20,000 to $30,000 for a twin turbo big block mopar if you want it done right without cutting corners.
 
Landyacht said:
This project is beginning to look like one big money pit. How much are you looking at actually spending? I have around $9000 invested in a fuel injected 470 stroker that is naturally aspirated and running close to 500 hp.

From what I gather in some of your earlier comments money seems to be an issue and I am also hearing talk of cutting corners. You plan on running twin turbos on a carburated motor with 10:1 compression and you want to eliminate the use of an intercooler to save money. I heard you mention water injection systems but those aren't cheap either. A methanol injection system will easily set you back $400 or more. I hope you don't plan on running your stock radiator. A new radiator will easily cost you $400 or more. You will need a really good oil cooler if you plan on running turbos. That's more money. All the little odds and ends are going to slowly nickel and dime you to death. The dollar sign I'm looking at in my head is about $20,000 to $30,000 for a twin turbo big block mopar if you want it done right without cutting corners.
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Well, when I STARTED this build, money wasn't a problem as my wife and I were both working at good paying jobs. Now she's not (medical issues) but I still am. I make enough to pay all the bills and have some left over....just not NEARLY as much as when we were both bringing home good money. I'm finishing this build come hell or high water because I may never get another chance AND I'm too far in to just stop.

You misunderstand my viewpoint on intercoolers. I simply don't NEED one at the mild boost level I'm looking at for this motor. 9 or 10 psi is the absolute highest I'd go on this one. I've seen some very good engines running 12-15 psi with no intercooler and do just fine. Besides, according to an old SAE technical paper, intercoolers are thermodynamically inefficient. They're an excellent way to dissipate energy.

I plan on using a water injection system unlike anything on the market. Self-designed and built. Conventional water injection systems have some critical shortcomings that I seek to correct in mine. Have already done some small scale testing as well as some real-world testing & development.....and it'll cost a helluva lot less than anything else out there.

Already have an aftermarket, all-aluminum radiator. Only about $250. Already have the oil & tranny coolers. Still more nickel and diming to be encountered, certainly. Sure, I probably could spend 20-30K, but I don't think it's a requirement. Shopping around for parts and services can go a long ways toward cutting the cubic dollars spent. Cutting corners one doesn't absolutely need isn't really cutting corners. For instance: I'm going carb'd because it works and it's relatively simple. I could've done the same thing with a $3000 EFI system. The turbos I plan on using are about $300 each. Old-school, plain bearing units that have a proven track record of working just fine. I could do the same thing with some newer units that cost upwards of $1600 each but I don't feel the need for variable geometry, ball bearings, and ceramic turbines. All very COOL features, mind you, that certainly have their benefits. I just don't feel like I really NEED those benefits badly enough to spend the extra cash. An aftermarket block would certainly have enough strength to do what I want (and then some). I just can't justify the $4000-plus price tag. You see my point. What I want and what I need aren't always in sync.
 
Just talked to my engine guy. He says the Eagle rods I got are actually about 50g heavier than the stock rods. He says that pretty well cancelled out the weight savings from the new pistons. Seems like my 383 is essentially still balanced, even with the new components. Weird. He's going to fine tune the balance and then we'll be ready for assembly.
Still haven't decided if I want to do that meself or have the shop do it.
 
I am a firm believer in 90% of the people that have forged pistons in there engine don't need them, because power level and high rpm that they never do. In your case I would definatly recommend forged pistons because of the long pulls at mid to high rpms and no intercooler. Yes I have reved the crap out of cast pistons with no problems but it was for a second maybe not 15-20 seconds of WOT at 5000 rpm. You are in use up parts quick territory. I am a firm believer in turbos anyone who has spent long seat time in a truck dragging heavy loads up hills and grades knows how great turbos are, go for it. My 2 cents are forged pistons and some sort of intercooler.
 
Forged pistons would probably be the smarter choice. However, I already have the coatings applied to my hypereutectics so I guess I'll just see how it goes....
As for an intercooler, I think I'll be fine at the 5-9psi boost I plan on running.
7377462644_d97bf827e2_z.jpg No intercooler on this Gale Banks SBC running 12psi boost and known good for 611bhp. Pretty hard to argue with a tried-and-true combo like this. My build will have a similar cam, higher compression, less boost, and water injection.

7377462644_d97bf827e2_z.jpg
 
Heat builds with long pulls under boost. Good news is you can add one later if you need it without opening anything up just plumbing reroute. If you have the pistons use them.
 
FinallyGot1 said:
Gear Vendors units are really cool. They're also around $2500 last I heard. Father-in-law had one on his GTX. Silver State won't let first-timers run in the unlimited class so I'd have to enter a slower class since I've never done it before. I think that's a smart move for both of us. I was just planning on entering the Touring class and that's limited to 95-115 mph IIRC.
In August of 1996, Hot Rod magazine featured a '68 Charger built for that race (and still streetable) did it with 2.76 rear gears and some old-school tall tires....and managed 191 mph with that setup backing up a pretty stout 440. I think that's plenty fast enough.
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930large%2b1968_dodge_charger%2bfront_left_view.jpg


950large%2b1968_dodge_charger%2bengine_view.jpg



The engine is an 0.030-bored 440 built by Mack, John, and Jim at Motion Dynamics in Lake Zurich, Illinois, with a stock cross-drilled crank, stock rods, TRW pistons, Zero-Gap rings, a Crane roller cam with 312 duration and 0.650 lift, and ported iron 915 heads with 2.14-inch intake and 1.81-inch exhaust valves and triple valvesprings. The compression is 12.5:1, the intake is a Weiand Team G with a Barry Grant–massaged Dominator fed by a sealed-to-the-hood air cleaner, and the fuel is sent there by a Mallory Comp 250 pump and filter. A Mallory ignition, Hooker Super Comp headers, a 3-inch exhaust system, a Moroso oil pan with a Milodon pump and pickup, an oil cooler, and a System 1 oil filter are used. Again, there are no trick aluminum heads, expensive billet crank, or titanium rods—just solid parts that get the job done. On the dyno, the engine made only 505 horsepower at 6000 rpm, which seems low considering the car’s speed. A Hemi four-speed with a McLeod dual-disc clutch backs up the engine.
 
That black Charger is a damn cool build. Love that car.

I suspect the 440 rods are a bit stronger than 383 rods. I also figured the Eagle rods would be a better, safer choice for when boost is added to the equation. Factory heads with unknown history and mods seemed a little sketchy to me and by the time I buy new valves, springs, etc., and have them ported so they flow as well as the Edelbrock heads, the cost got prohibitive. So, for about the same money as modifying/reconditioning factory heads, I got a NEW set of aluminum heads with all new hardware with no porting or milling needed to meet my power goals. It just seemed like a lot less hassle to go with the Eddy heads.
A roller cam setup sure would be cool but DAMN that's an expensive upgrade. I figured a flat tappet cam would do the job for me. I just need to be careful with break-in and oil selection. I'm already really careful with oil in my '84 Chevy 305 and my '87 Chrysler 318 so that's no big deal.
 
The roller cam upgrade is not that much more in the big picture. I think on Lunati it's about $400 more than the regular flat tappet cam setup. The aftermarket rods are a good choice over stock, if for one reason - the machine shop bill.
 
In the early days of this board a criticism was when compared to the Drydock we had too much fluff and not enough substance. With members like those above problem solved. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
 
65sporty said:
Love the engine build, where are you at with it?
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About to start assembling the short block when time permits. I'm beginning to think I should've just paid the shop the $400 they wanted to do it for me.
Working full time plus a bunch of overtime makes it hard to find time to get to it....not to mention everything else that goes along with being a grown-up. (I remember a time, long ago, when my days off were FREE TIME. WTH ever happened to that? I don't remember signing up for all this other stuff. LOL) Besides, doing the assembly in an unheated storage locker with winter coming is another obstacle as I'm not so good with cold. I'm a foundry worker and adapted to year-round HOT.
Anything below 70* and I need a jacket. Below 50* and I need some light gloves. Winter sucks but I save a bundle on A/C in the summer. LOL
 
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