HEI Vs Points Showdown

I noticed he wasn't using a ballast resistor when running the points, not that you would for drag racing I guess. How big would the arc be with the coil running 6 or 7 volts with the ballast as on a street car?
The coil determines the type and amount of resistance a ballast or resistor wire needs to be. He used a blaster coil that you can dump 12v into. A 40,000 volt rated coil is just that rated at 40,000 if on ballast or not depending on it designed input.
The problem comes from mis information that electronic ignition is better, it isn't it is only less maintenance.
Dual points are for high RPM allowing max max dwell time. Stock ECU is subject to same thing, the transistor that works well for many, many miles on the road is not capable of the high RPM efficiency of a transistor that can handle high RPM. This is why back in the day Mopar Performance sold 3 different ECUs for different applications.
 
Dual points are for high RPM allowing max max dwell time.

I had always imagined dual points would get more dwell time by only having each set of points be responsible for firing 4 cylinders each so double the dwell. It would work even better I thought if there were 2 coils too on for each set of points. But I hear that is not the case. I have never seen a dual point distributor so I guess I will have to look into this.
 
Dual points were there, in the first place, to extend the dwell time for a hotter spark. More time for the coil to "make volts" before the plug fires. Can't do the same thing just by changing the point gap outside of the gap specs, so one point set opened things and the second set closed things.

Pontiac allegedly did a dyno test to see if dual points were really needed, back about '66 in the pre-OEM electronic ignition days. They allegedly found no real difference in power output. Up to 6000rpm or so. Dual points were not meant to allow for higher rpms, just better firing at higher rpms due to the increased "coil saturation".

There was LOTS of aftermarket hot rod ignition stuff floating around in the middle-late 1960s. Much had marketing hype attached to it, plus wild cosmetics/heat sinks/bigger sizes. More spark voltage is always better? BUT, as mentioned earlier AND by a Holley engineer (at a seminar in the 1980s, or was it Jacobs?), the coil only produces what the plug needs to fire . . . no more, no less. But then top fuel drag motors needed magnetos for their reliability and max spark output, in their high-pressure combustion chamber environment. But then farm tractors used them too, as did some earlier 1960s drag racers. Simple, easy, lots of zap.

One of the design parameters of the GM HEI was to have enough "zap" to fire a .100" gap plug (in the typically 8.5 CR range, of engines at that time). It was discovered that when the plug gap got past about ..80", plug wire condition became critical. Some Olds V-8s spec'd a '060" gap, but after a few cycles of fast idle with no warm-up, while being moved around the car lot, the plugs would foul and the gap was tightened.

Having the HEI module coated with "heat sink lube" is important, or the module will cook itself. Otherwise, generally no other problems. The center carbon electrode in the cap will wear out over time. One winter, it got really cold and a customer's C20 work truck wouldn't start, although it ran the day before, when it was warmer. The carbon piece was not there. There was evidence that the coil still fired, not always hitting the right point on the rotor's center spring. New cap and carbon item and it was good again.

The larger diameter of the HEI cap is there to decrease high-speed misfire tendencies. Which was later attributed to in-cap ozone production from the stronger sparks. Fix? Drill holes in the cap for ventilation.

Well-cared for points usually lasted about 20K miles, back then. Although most were changed at 12-15K intervals, yearly. A KEY thing, then as now, is that little vial of "breaker cam grease" that used to come in ALL point sets, no matter what . . . until the factory electronic ignitions became popular. THAT was the key to longevity of the points and kept the gap where it needed to be. That grease is still around, just have to really hunt for it, sometimes.

The other issue FOR points is that there is no electronic box that has a minimum voltage (from the battery) requirement in order for it to fire the plugs. Which means that a point car will or can start if it'll barely turn over, as long as it will make a spark and there's enough air/fuel mix there for it to fire. A electronic box can raise that min battery voltage a good bit, such that it can turn over nicely and still not fire the plugs. Not unlike the "extended crank time" of a fuel injected vehicle with a weak fuel pump.

I still like that orig OEM Chrysler system, personally, but the HEI in my Camaro has been good too (as long as the modules don't fail for age). On the other hand, a good distributor with the breaker cam in good, non-worn peaks, condition that will still allow for the point gap and dwell to be in specs, with the breaker cam grease, PLUS some Iridium spark plugs, should be just fine, too, I suspect. EVEN if you drive as much now and you did back then.

Just some thoughts,
CBODY67
 
BUT, as mentioned earlier AND by a Holley engineer (at a seminar in the 1980s, or was it Jacobs?), the coil only produces what the plug needs to fire . . . no more, no less.

Yes very interesting. I am trying to convince myself to run points on my stroker engine, single point. The engine at 505 ci will max out between 5000 to 5500 rpms max. At these rpms I am thinking with a nicely set up distributor {Halifaxhops} with a set curve and real good point sets it should be fine....I think.
 
I think I'd start there and see how it goes. With a good OEM-quality (if that exists any more?) coil. You can always change it later . . . if desired.

Enjoy!
CBODY67
 
It would work even better I thought if there were 2 coils too on for each set of points. But I hear that is not the case. I have never seen a dual point distributor so I guess I will have to look into this
They open and close a few degrees apart. One set opens, the other maintains the circuit for a few more degrees of dwell time then it opens to collapse the field. The first set immediately closes to start the dwell time on the next cylinder. Basically it would be like a very sharp pointed cam lobe the points would be unable to follow.
 
All the original hemi engines in the fifties had dual point setups. I thought I read somewhere it was to have the plug fire for a longer period time to make sure all the fuel mixture was burned for better efficiency and power.

Just like some race engines had dual distributors and dual plugs.
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He kind of got it and kind of missed it at the same time.
You can only have a maximum of 45° of dwell time on a eight loved distributor cam. This would be impossible for the points to follow. A more gentle ramp is easier for the points to follow and more importantly more stable at higher RPM. By offsetting them and having two sets of points/switches you can increase dwell time to saturate the coil windings producing the full spark, with a gentle ramp to keep stability in check.
38° of dwell out of a maximum of 45° is pretty damn good. At 7000 RPM that a big difference over the mid 20s out of a single point, not to mention each switch/points only carrying half the load.
 
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