My 440 Build

[jstaples2]

Hi all -
I went ahead and bought that 440 I had questions on a few days ago. Thanks again for all your help and insight. I went to see it and it was beautiful, still wearing her turquoise paint. The bores have no ring wear, all the bearing surfaces look nice with little wear. I'll use this thread to document the buildout. I am probably going to have some questions as I go!

The block is stamped June of 1965 so she's an old gal, but still so clean and fresh! There's a cool back story to it if anyone is interested.

The crank that came with it is forged, but not original to the engine. I also was able to get the original pistons/rod. Several of the wrist pins are locked up and I've got them soaking in wd-40. I'm hoping to re-use these pistons.

 

[70bigblockdodge]

Put PB blaster in those pin holes in the piston and leave them soak top down for a while.

 

[traintech55]

The best thing to do is take it to a shop and have the cylinder bores measured. They may have no wear at the top of the bore, but have wear at the bottom. Also take the crank in and have it measured at the same time. If the block has to be cut, have them remove as little as possible. Most shops like to do 0.030, but Chrysler engines clean up nicely at 0.020.

 

[livininharrow]

do yourself a favour and do what traintech suggested and buy some new pistons

 

[Fratzog]

Hi all -
.... There's a cool back story to it if anyone is interested...

Always interested, no need to ask.

 

[jstaples2]

Thanks everyone. I'm researching machine shops in the area and hope to get it over to be inspected in the coming days.

As to the backstory of the block. No one is sure exactly which car it came from, but being a 65 casting it was assumed it was a big passenger car (imperial?). The original owner of the block was named Scotty and he had an addiction to mopars and women. Scotty and Dave (who I bought the block from) met in the service and became best friends due to common interests in cars. Dave shared several stories about Scotty and the trouble he'd get up to in his charger. At any time Scotty had 8-10 440 blocks and something like 15 340 blocks and tons of other car related material.

This '65 block was always the crown jewel for Scotty and Dave had always pestered him about building it or at least letting him buy it. After several years Scotty relented and sold the block to Dave to be built for a 68 Duster. Shortly afterwards, Scotty passed away unexpectedly. Dave had always had the intention of building this block and couldn't bring himself to part with it. He was very emotional in recounting the story to me. Dave drug the block around (along with the duster) for something like 15 years while life continued to get in the way. Eventually it was time to sell it and that's when I happened on it. Dave was/is still emotionally attached to the block and was grateful to know someone was going to (finally) build it. I thought it was kinda cool that this block will finally get built and also knowing that it likely started life in a C body and will eventually find it's way back into one.

 

[traintech55]

Another thing to remember, the compression on the factory pistons was around 10 to 1 in 1966. If you are building this for the street that is kind of high for pump gas. When I had mine rebuilt I went with 9 to 1 pistons. I also had the assembly internally balanced at the time, man does it run sweet now.

 

[jstaples2]

I'd like to re-use the original flat top pistons and LY connecting rods, but I'm having a hard time 'mathing' out what a likely CR is going to be with 440 Source heads (80cc chamber volume) and steel gaskets (.02) and stock crank.

From what I can gather on Google the original heads were 516's with 73.5cc. My ask is.... Does anyone know how far down the bore the stock flat-top piston sits at TDC? Or have an idea of what CR might come out as?

Thanks for any help.

 

[celticwarlock]

I have heard that from the factory, the height of the piston @ TDC may vary slightly from cylinder to cylinder because of inconsistencies in engine manufacturing. I believe the discrepancy results from a lack of uniformity in the placement of the pins in the rods.

I don't think it matters very much at all, but if it does to you, it's something to think about (new rods will correct this).

 

[Mr C]

1968 Duster? Valiant, maybe.

 

[65sporty]

Looks forward to following your build up.

 

[moper]

You have rust in the bores. Which means pits so regardless of wear it will have to be bored oversize. Go .030 over. Pistons are easy to come by at +.030. The rods need replacement bolts. I like ARP, and the rods will need to be resized following the bolt replacement. The crank should be turned and the rotating assembly balanced. The shop can inpect the block and will tell you what it needs. A basic rebuild with stock-type parts will run $3-4K depending on your shop's labor rate and what needs to be done. If you want more power the bill goes up with the output. For a rock solid 430hp performance 440 expect to spend $6K to have it done for you.

 

[traintech55]

You have rust in the bores. Which means pits so regardless of wear it will have to be bored oversize. Go .030 over. Pistons are easy to come by at +.030. The rods need replacement bolts. I like ARP, and the rods will need to be resized following the bolt replacement. The crank should be turned and the rotating assembly balanced. The shop can inpect the block and will tell you what it needs. A basic rebuild with stock-type parts will run $3-4K depending on your shop's labor rate and what needs to be done. If you want more power the bill goes up with the output. For a rock solid 430hp performance 440 expect to spend $6K to have it done for you.

Why would you go .030 if the block does not need it. He should have it measured to see what it needs first. The more you bore a block, the weaker it gets. When I had mine rebuilt, I had the machine work, new pistons, balanced, and assembled for $2,600.00.

 

[jstaples2]

You have rust in the bores. Which means pits so regardless of wear it will have to be bored oversize. Go .030 over. Pistons are easy to come by at +.030. The rods need replacement bolts. I like ARP, and the rods will need to be resized following the bolt replacement. The crank should be turned and the rotating assembly balanced. The shop can inpect the block and will tell you what it needs. A basic rebuild with stock-type parts will run $3-4K depending on your shop's labor rate and what needs to be done. If you want more power the bill goes up with the output. For a rock solid 430hp performance 440 expect to spend $6K to have it done for you.

Thanks guys. Yep, I'm hoping I don't need to have it bored and that the rust is just surface rust from sitting for so many years. I found a automotive machine shop in Austin that can look at it in a few weeks. So, I'll know more then. I'm wanting to assemble the block myself so I just need a really good/honest shop and some advice/guidance from the group here. I've been re-reading my copy of How to Rebuild Big-Block Mopar Engines to get ready.

 

[moper]

"Why?"
To explain I think one needs to understand some things about me...
I own a really good, professional quality, certified sonic tester. I was also given instructions on how to properly test blocks by the manufacturer. I own dial bore gages and micrometers. I've also been building engines for almost 31 years, and worked at a few machine shops through the years.
So based on my experience - surface rust means it gets overbored. Honing could be done but it leads to bigger piston to wall clearances, and early ring wear.
While admirable to "keep the walls as thick as possible" there is a very good possibility that any factor besides rust will cause it to need to go more than +.010. If the shop used has the equipment... the bore may be worn, tapered, out of round, or be bored out of position. By only trying to remove about .003" from each side of the wall things have to be really good before you start. That is of course if the builder is concerned enough with quality product to address such deficiencies. Some simply aren't. The shop I use is.
Performance piston availability is best for +.030 and +.060 in most engine sizes. Some overlap and are therefore cheaper still. None of the stick pistons are of any quality or design I want to use.
Lastly, I'd gladly sacrifice .010" of locallized wall thickness in the quest for a properly placed, straight, perfectly round bore with the right wall finish for the rings being used. These corrections actually lead to less stress on the walls themselves, so the stress on the "thinner" wall is less. This approach is why some engines make a lot of power and last a long time, and others simply don't.

 

[traintech55]

"Why?"
To explain I think one needs to understand some things about me...
I own a really good, professional quality, certified sonic tester. I was also given instructions on how to properly test blocks by the manufacturer. I own dial bore gages and micrometers. I've also been building engines for almost 31 years, and worked at a few machine shops through the years.
So based on my experience - surface rust means it gets overbored. Honing could be done but it leads to bigger piston to wall clearances, and early ring wear.
While admirable to "keep the walls as thick as possible" there is a very good possibility that any factor besides rust will cause it to need to go more than +.010. If the shop used has the equipment... the bore may be worn, tapered, out of round, or be bored out of position. By only trying to remove about .003" from each side of the wall things have to be really good before you start. That is of course if the builder is concerned enough with quality product to address such deficiencies. Some simply aren't. The shop I use is.
Performance piston availability is best for +.030 and +.060 in most engine sizes. Some overlap and are therefore cheaper still. None of the stick pistons are of any quality or design I want to use.
Lastly, I'd gladly sacrifice .010" of locallized wall thickness in the quest for a properly placed, straight, perfectly round bore with the right wall finish for the rings being used. These corrections actually lead to less stress on the walls themselves, so the stress on the "thinner" wall is less. This approach is why some engines make a lot of power and last a long time, and others simply don't.

Thirty one years of rebuilding engines is a long time and very admirable, now just for poops and giggles, I have 45 years of experience behind me. Again I stated in both posts I made on this thread, HAVE THE BLOCK MEASURED FIRST. Then if it needs to be cut .030 do it, but don't cut more than is needed to bring the bores back to spec and square them up.

 

[GJS]

Thanks guys. Yep, I'm hoping I don't need to have it bored and that the rust is just surface rust from sitting for so many years. I found a automotive machine shop in Austin that can look at it in a few weeks. So, I'll know more then. I'm wanting to assemble the block myself so I just need a really good/honest shop and some advice/guidance from the group here. I've been re-reading my copy of How to Rebuild Big-Block Mopar Engines to get ready.

That book is a really good place to start. I built my first 440 off that book and guidance from my machine shop and it fired right of and (after break in) ran reliably for many years.
Good luck, man!

 

[moper]

I'll agree to disagree. Based on my experience. Luckilly for both of us advice is free and common.

 

[livininharrow]

Thirty one years of rebuilding engines is a long time and very admirable, now just for poops and giggles, I have 45 years of experience behind me. Again I stated in both posts I made on this thread, HAVE THE BLOCK MEASURED FIRST. Then if it needs to be cut .030 do it, but don't cut more than is needed to bring the bores back to spec and square them up.

I say bore the ***** as much as it will take. slam in the biggest pistons you can and the largest cam you can and have fun. **** the rest of the naysayers.

 

[jstaples2]

I heard back from the shop today and it looks like the block needs to be bored .20 over to clean up the cylinders. Sounds good to me since it should leave enough 'meat' in the cylinders for a future rebuild should my kids ever want to do so

However, in looking at the available pistons in .20 over, there isn't much choice. I found some Keith Black pistons that I think will do the trick and get me to something under 10:1 compression with some 80cc aluminum heads. Thoughts?
Keith Black KB Performance Pistons KB184-020