New to me 78 NYB on its way but please Don't tell my wife

75LandYacht

Yank Tank
Joined
Oct 1, 2015
Messages
5,919
Reaction score
6,174
Location
Westchester NY
To the relief of at least one of you out there.....

I’m thinking that I may just retire the Electronic Lean Burn system.

Yep... take it all off carefully, put it and all my spares in a box and send it to the back of the back of the garage. Oh I’ll keep it and it goes with the car but that 43 year ignition control system is just not up to giving me the power possible from the rebuilt to ‘69 spec 440. And there is no easy way to tune it so that it can.... period.

I do get glimpses and it’s kind of cool. Like when I slowed down to take a fast turn and hit the gas and she burned a little rubber (on one side). But then the computer retards the advance and won’t bring it back up fast enough (by design) to put out the power this thing is capable of. It’s really not the system; it’s the built in hard wired programming that it came with. The technology was pretty bleeding edge and precursor to actual fuel and ignition control that would come soon enough. In order to eliminate pinging at highway i have to have the timing set just right. Everything needs to be just so.... and I really do love the kickdown and throaty sound of that Thermoquad when I nail it... it’s just that I never know exactly what I’m going to get. It does take very little pedal to get and hold speed now. If I drive like an older sane person then I would never be able to tell. But that’s not me.

Options I’m Currently exploring:

Option 1) Remove the ELB ignition sustm and replace it with the older electronic ignition system and dizzy that comes in a kit for about $200.

Advantages: easy and fairly cheap to do. Stripping the sensors and ELB add-ons to the Thermoquad will not affect its performance (or glorious sound). Could probably do it in a day or two. I know the system backwards forward and upside down, have the actual diagnostic equipment for service (just because I’m really insane). It is in line with the rest of the Mopar fleet (or flotilla according to my bride). I could adapt the ignition module into the current computer control box to keep at least the aesthetic.

Disadvantages: it’s not very fuel efficient. It’s a step back. It doesn’t take any advantage of the good things the ELB could do.

Option 2) Pull the ELB and Thermoquad (much to Stan’s final relief) and install a Holley Sniper EFI system.

View attachment 455141


Advantages: beyond the obvious... extremely high cool factor, drivability, performance, reliability, comfort, predictability. Takes advantage of the current ELB distributor.... which satisfies the nostalgic in me. (really uses what Chrysler was trying to do to its full advantage with both fuel and timing control) It’s evolutionary not radically different. I can do it fairly easily at the shop over a few days. I’ve rebuilt fuel
Injection systems in my Cadillacs so it doesn’t intimidate me at all. It come with pre set profiles you can actually tune.... meaning hours of fun and digital readout to play with. It’s a throttle body system so it will make some cool sounds, just a little different. And..... will look like a Thermoquad which satisfies the aesthetic requirements I live by. May be a sign if things to come for the fleet as parts get more rare and harder to find.

Disadvantages: mo money (about $1500 all in I figure), mo time to do which will require planning and logistics (and you all know how much I hate to do that) will lock me into the beast a while longer than I had planned.

thoughts, ideas.... gentlemen?

all are welcome on this discussion.

Of course either will require it’s own thread once I make a decision.
:thankyou:
 

Georges77

Member
Joined
Jan 13, 2021
Messages
62
Reaction score
133
Location
Chicago
Personally I'd hit the easy button and go for the regular electronic ignition.

That said, with the attention to detail, the perfection that this car has, the EFI just, "fits", in a way. Seems like the cherry on top really.
 

HWYCRZR

Senior Member
FCBO Gold Member
Joined
May 13, 2015
Messages
4,613
Reaction score
6,082
Location
Fargo, ND
Sometimes you have to bring everything back the way the engineers and designers intended just to experience what they had in mind. Plus the undaunted challenge to do so. Now that it is dialed in as intended and you have excellent knowledge on how the systems work (good or bad) you can now do the tweaking to get it to your expectations. Too many people throw things away and replace them without really knowing or understanding why they are discarding and changing those items.
I like the progression.
 

73 T&C

Senior Member
FCBO Gold Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2013
Messages
2,052
Reaction score
3,145
Location
Coral Gables, Florida
“Houston.... we have a problem.”

As I’ve been sorting and dialing in the beast it has been developing a definite miss. Checked and re routed the wires to my specs. Don’t get me wrong.... Ivan’s guys are good but I am finicky... as you know.

Problem was first only at idle and was observable as a little unbalanced; fine under power.

Now all the time. And definite lost cylinder.

Checked each lead and plug again and found that number 6 was oil fouled.

Damn.

Pulled the lead while running with the tachometer hooked up from my timing light. No change in RPM. All the rest dropped about 60-75 rpm when pulled. I hear a light ticking around the valve train but not like a stuck lifter banging around.

Of course it’s too damned hot now to even approach. Once cool, (like maybe tomorrow) I’ll pull the plug again and throw my camera in there to see what I can see and check compression.

My hope is it’s a bad lifter. All were installed new with the new cam. but possible. Or a bent pushrod... like the lifter: highly unlikely.

My fear is it’s a cracked or chipped valve.....although I hadn’t noticed any pinging when I bumped up the timing.

My worst fear fear is a wiped lobe on the new cam.

Bets and opinions anyone?

We’ll all find out soon.

Damn... double damn.
 

LeBaron1973

Old Man with a Hat
Joined
Sep 13, 2015
Messages
6,305
Reaction score
2,397
Location
Harewood, Christchurch, Canterbury, NZ
To the relief of at least one of you out there.....

I’m thinking that I may just retire the Electronic Lean Burn system.

Yep... take it all off carefully, put it and all my spares in a box and send it to the back of the back of the garage. Oh I’ll keep it and it goes with the car but that 43 year ignition control system is just not up to giving me the power possible from the rebuilt to ‘69 spec 440. And there is no easy way to tune it so that it can.... period.

I do get glimpses and it’s kind of cool. Like when I slowed down to take a fast turn and hit the gas and she burned a little rubber (on one side). But then the computer retards the advance and won’t bring it back up fast enough (by design) to put out the power this thing is capable of. It’s really not the system; it’s the built in hard wired programming that it came with. The technology was pretty bleeding edge and precursor to actual fuel and ignition control that would come soon enough. In order to eliminate pinging at highway i have to have the timing set just right. Everything needs to be just so.... and I really do love the kickdown and throaty sound of that Thermoquad when I nail it... it’s just that I never know exactly what I’m going to get. It does take very little pedal to get and hold speed now. If I drive like an older sane person then I would never be able to tell. But that’s not me.

Options I’m Currently exploring:

Option 1) Remove the ELB ignition sustm and replace it with the older electronic ignition system and dizzy that comes in a kit for about $200.

Advantages: easy and fairly cheap to do. Stripping the sensors and ELB add-ons to the Thermoquad will not affect its performance (or glorious sound). Could probably do it in a day or two. I know the system backwards forward and upside down, have the actual diagnostic equipment for service (just because I’m really insane). It is in line with the rest of the Mopar fleet (or flotilla according to my bride). I could adapt the ignition module into the current computer control box to keep at least the aesthetic.

Disadvantages: it’s not very fuel efficient. It’s a step back. It doesn’t take any advantage of the good things the ELB could do.

Option 2) Pull the ELB and Thermoquad (much to Stan’s final relief) and install a Holley Sniper EFI system.

View attachment 455141


Advantages: beyond the obvious... extremely high cool factor, drivability, performance, reliability, comfort, predictability. Takes advantage of the current ELB distributor.... which satisfies the nostalgic in me. (really uses what Chrysler was trying to do to its full advantage with both fuel and timing control) It’s evolutionary not radically different. I can do it fairly easily at the shop over a few days. I’ve rebuilt fuel
Injection systems in my Cadillacs so it doesn’t intimidate me at all. It come with pre set profiles you can actually tune.... meaning hours of fun and digital readout to play with. It’s a throttle body system so it will make some cool sounds, just a little different. And..... will look like a Thermoquad which satisfies the aesthetic requirements I live by. May be a sign if things to come for the fleet as parts get more rare and harder to find.

Disadvantages: mo money (about $1500 all in I figure), mo time to do which will require planning and logistics (and you all know how much I hate to do that) will lock me into the beast a while longer than I had planned.

thoughts, ideas.... gentlemen?

all are welcome on this discussion.

Of course either will require it’s own thread once I make a decision.
The Holley sniper seems the best option for, as you said, it accomplishes what the Chrysler engineers were trying to achieve with their "new" technology back in the late 70s.

As you explained, the ELB system works fine doing what it was designed/programmed to do but is pretty much "fixed" compared to a 42 year newer "tunable" system.

Considering how far you've come in defying the "experts" about things like straightening the "can't be done" bumpers, it'd be a shame not to fully finish the job.

Hope the latest difficulty with the engine resolves quickly and successfully.

I'm sure I'm not alone in saying that we're proud of your accomplishments as you should be too. All the best for future happy motoring.

Mantener la cabeza en alto

(keep you chin up)
 

73 T&C

Senior Member
FCBO Gold Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2013
Messages
2,052
Reaction score
3,145
Location
Coral Gables, Florida
The Holley sniper seems the best option for, as you said, it accomplishes what the Chrysler engineers were trying to achieve with their "new" technology back in the late 70s.

As you explained, the ELB system works fine doing what it was designed/programmed to do but is pretty much "fixed" compared to a 42 year newer "tunable" system.

Considering how far you've come in defying the "experts" about things like straightening the "can't be done" bumpers, it'd be a shame not to fully finish the job.

Hope the latest difficulty with the engine resolves quickly and successfully.

I'm sure I'm not alone in saying that we're proud of your accomplishments as you should be too. All the best for future happy motoring.

Mantener la cabeza en alto

(keep you chin up)
I was more than a little miffed this morning when I realized what may have happened.

But hey, at least this time I know where I’m starting from. And.... as my wife likes to remind me and repeated this morning; “Sometimes I think you like it when things break because it gives you an excuse to take it apart and fix it”.

I think that’s why I was pondering the upgrades.... ran out of things to do on it.
 

73 T&C

Senior Member
FCBO Gold Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2013
Messages
2,052
Reaction score
3,145
Location
Coral Gables, Florida
Praying doesn’t look like it will help.....

That’s what my friend and neighbor Tom said after I told him what I found. Tom’s always walking the dog and good for some pleasant conversation.

For posterity.... here it is. No one would believe it so I took pictures. And probably no one else will ever have this happen.

Of course I couldn’t wait until tomorrow to look into the dead number 6.... but you all knew that.

By about 6 o’clock engine was touchable if still warm.

EA0410C3-0D0B-4CE1-AA96-7C76054C40D2.jpeg

Here are the plugs for numbers 6 and 4. Six is wet oil fouled... four is textbook perfect with a light tan soot on it.

AA2E4176-69DC-4FAF-AAE3-6D551F1EBEC0.jpeg

Camera in number six. Top of piston is black with soot. The marks were made by me with the camera as I tried to look around. Camera has a 45 degree mirror attachment that I won’t use because it can fall of. So no way to see the top of the chamber except in passing through the spark plug hole. More soot.

3295B5D5-D8E6-463F-ABF0-D9FC3FE9BC1F.jpeg

Honing is good with only a little bit of scuffing.

F8EE5677-C369-43CB-BB0E-21008C56D4FF.jpeg

Top of piston is literally wet with oil. I’m thinking valve stem seal fail and valve guides??? So soon? Somethings up.

F5B13F89-6084-45FB-8A67-DD7E48335F63.jpeg

Pulled the camera head out to clean it. Oily sooty mess.

C21C45A4-7AD6-44DC-91B7-731871610C68.jpeg

Since the oil filler cap was available, I put the camera through to see what I could see. When I thought I saw writing... interesting.

A731BECD-1790-4AF1-A7BA-955033EC34F6.jpeg


Yep... that’s an “m” all right. As in “priming” the oil system before initial start.... it’s the instructions/checklist of things to do. Took a while but I was able to read it and figured it out.

Somebody ****** up..... by accident I’m sure.

But that appears to have starved the valve guide which probably stuck the valve which bent the push rod which mashed the lifter that lost valve lift that killed the cylinder on the engine that Javier had built. But that’s just a good guess.

New head job.... here we come.

At least we only need to do the one since the other only has maybe six or eight hours and less than 500 miles on it.

This is truly unique.

More Monday

I’ll be ordering the Holley Sniper after I get some questions answered.... to celebrate I now know what it is and it’s not the worse possible case....

I think I’ll skip the compression test for now.
 
Last edited:

73 T&C

Senior Member
FCBO Gold Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2013
Messages
2,052
Reaction score
3,145
Location
Coral Gables, Florida
Thinking through the problem.

Decided to run a compression check on number 6.

here is video:


20 min later.....

4A4FF8CD-1AFA-482C-A7F6-AA57B2545B0B.jpeg


B9EACA34-77A2-4B03-B0ED-18B215C09239.jpeg


one hour later only lost 2 psi. Valves are fine.

Oil is probably coming off the cylinder walls and past the rings through suction. I’m thinking the intake may also be stuck (or partially stuck) but allowing mixture in past it through suction because it takes a full 5 or 6 cycles to fill.

That leaves 2 possibilities. Valve train ( lifter, rocker, pushrod) or cam. I hope it’s the former and not the latter...

I’ll get Ivan to pull the valve cover and let him take it from there. Either his people or the machine shop made the oops. We’ll find out Monday.

Am I missing anything?
 
Last edited:

73 T&C

Senior Member
FCBO Gold Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2013
Messages
2,052
Reaction score
3,145
Location
Coral Gables, Florida
Sorry to read about your troubles. I will be following with interest. BTW nice Submariner.
Got it 25 years ago from a pawn shop a friend owns. Back then they were cheap compared to what they cost new today. Even the used one like mine is incredibly expensive. I wouldn’t buy one now..... not with a sniper EFI to buy.
 

cantflip

Old Jagoff with a Hat
FCBO Gold Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2015
Messages
11,008
Reaction score
12,197
Location
Orlando, FL
To the relief of at least one of you out there.....

I’m thinking that I may just retire the Electronic Lean Burn system.

Yep... take it all off carefully, put it and all my spares in a box and send it to the back of the back of the garage. Oh I’ll keep it and it goes with the car but that 43 year ignition control system is just not up to giving me the power possible from the rebuilt to ‘69 spec 440. And there is no easy way to tune it so that it can.... period.

I do get glimpses and it’s kind of cool. Like when I slowed down to take a fast turn and hit the gas and she burned a little rubber (on one side). But then the computer retards the advance and won’t bring it back up fast enough (by design) to put out the power this thing is capable of. It’s really not the system; it’s the built in hard wired programming that it came with. The technology was pretty bleeding edge and precursor to actual fuel and ignition control that would come soon enough. In order to eliminate pinging at highway i have to have the timing set just right. Everything needs to be just so.... and I really do love the kickdown and throaty sound of that Thermoquad when I nail it... it’s just that I never know exactly what I’m going to get. It does take very little pedal to get and hold speed now. If I drive like an older sane person then I would never be able to tell. But that’s not me.

Options I’m Currently exploring:

Option 1) Remove the ELB ignition sustm and replace it with the older electronic ignition system and dizzy that comes in a kit for about $200.

Advantages: easy and fairly cheap to do. Stripping the sensors and ELB add-ons to the Thermoquad will not affect its performance (or glorious sound). Could probably do it in a day or two. I know the system backwards forward and upside down, have the actual diagnostic equipment for service (just because I’m really insane). It is in line with the rest of the Mopar fleet (or flotilla according to my bride). I could adapt the ignition module into the current computer control box to keep at least the aesthetic.

Disadvantages: it’s not very fuel efficient. It’s a step back. It doesn’t take any advantage of the good things the ELB could do.

Option 2) Pull the ELB and Thermoquad (much to Stan’s final relief) and install a Holley Sniper EFI system.

View attachment 455141


Advantages: beyond the obvious... extremely high cool factor, drivability, performance, reliability, comfort, predictability. Takes advantage of the current ELB distributor.... which satisfies the nostalgic in me. (really uses what Chrysler was trying to do to its full advantage with both fuel and timing control) It’s evolutionary not radically different. I can do it fairly easily at the shop over a few days. I’ve rebuilt fuel
Injection systems in my Cadillacs so it doesn’t intimidate me at all. It come with pre set profiles you can actually tune.... meaning hours of fun and digital readout to play with. It’s a throttle body system so it will make some cool sounds, just a little different. And..... will look like a Thermoquad which satisfies the aesthetic requirements I live by. May be a sign if things to come for the fleet as parts get more rare and harder to find.

Disadvantages: mo money (about $1500 all in I figure), mo time to do which will require planning and logistics (and you all know how much I hate to do that) will lock me into the beast a while longer than I had planned.

thoughts, ideas.... gentlemen?

all are welcome on this discussion.

Of course either will require it’s own thread once I make a decision.

Hey Jav... I'm saying GO FOR IT... my reasoning, if anyone is going to do it well and tweak on the damn thing AND then give it an honest evaluation after they're through... you're that guy. :thumbsup:

I'm way too cheap to even think about it. If it were me, I'd look hard at the GM TBI system that others are doing... the reasoning for me, the GM parts have a potential for replacement parts into the future and I distrust a wholly aftermarket system to have similar availability years later, though Holley may be as good a bet as you can make that way. My reasoning is silly things like the programmer dies, and you find it's based on long forgotten technology and no longer has a replacement, so your system now needs to be replaced vs component replacement. Think "Palm Pilot".

I would never want to go into TBI without using the timing controls available... I know you're the right guy for that. I'm looking forward to a new thread containing the insanely detailed exploits. :lol:
 

73 T&C

Senior Member
FCBO Gold Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2013
Messages
2,052
Reaction score
3,145
Location
Coral Gables, Florida
I love how those words just roll off your tongue now. I could hear you say it a million times and I would never tire of it.
So....
With the bumper, we're even now. Yes?
:rofl:
I have two other cars with Thermoquads and enough parts in the bins for the rest of my natural life. So I’m not going completely out of the Thermoquad business just yet.....

But this NYB is evolving to the next step in technology that would have come in short order had Chrysler not gone broke so many times in a row.

The ELB was (and is) a compromise to extend the life of their existing engine design stock.

Suboptimal is a charitable description.

Classic case of subtraction through addition. Added to a tunable working system to make it more precise only to have it become troublesome due to stretching the ability of the technology, complete lack of tune-ability and their own support system. Interesting, if so so, when it works. PIA when you can’t figure out why it doesn’t.

As to “are we even ?”.... never!

To the contrary Stan.

We were never uneven. You and your doubts only serve to inspire.
 
Last edited:

73 T&C

Senior Member
FCBO Gold Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2013
Messages
2,052
Reaction score
3,145
Location
Coral Gables, Florida
I'm looking forward to a new thread containing the insanely detailed exploits. :lol:

Thanks Jeff for the kind words.

Me too. Your valuable input is always welcome. I’ll look into the GM TBI system.

But, right now, Holley seems to have their **** together in a nice package. Parts, if ever needed, will probably be available through EBay long after Holley and I cease to exist.

I’m looking forward to the conversion upgrade and hopefully the further improved drivability.
 
Last edited:

1978 NYB

Warfighter
Legendary Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2011
Messages
72,168
Reaction score
50,201
Location
Classified
Go for it.

I have been mulling a Holley Sniper system for my 78 NYB. Snipers are pretty easy to setup and maintain these days. Might increase my 5 mpg!
 
Top