Radiator Core Support

[Mudeblue]

Cooling nightmare; 1965 Plymouth SF 383! Purchased a $875 Griffin Aluminium Radiator, BIG MISTAKE - STAY AWAY FROM GRIFFIN, installed A/C, installed serpentine belt, installed push and pull fans for a combined 3,000 CFM and installed shroud. Radiator is is OEM specifications with dimensions of 22" x 18". Complete engine overhaul and has +-600 miles.

Location; Phoenix, AZ.

Problem; Engine runs hot, any ambient temperature 75 degrees or above just changes how quick it gets hot at lights and driving.

Question; I converted the car to have A/C. I am unable to determine if a Radiator Core Support was available in a 26" when the car had factory air or just the standard 22." With the current 22 X 18" there is surface area of 396 sq. inches vs. 468 sq. inches with the 26 X 18 or an increase of 18%. Therefore, was there a 26" Radiator Core Support available in and for a 1965 Fury OR will a 26" Core Support fit from another year, i.e. 1966 fit. I am looking at this option vs. pulling out the serpentine belt and trying to install standard belts, changing water pumps, changing pulleys on the A/C compressor, if even possible, as well as the power steering pump, etc. and reinstalling a fan blade, new shroud and other. I estimate that what ever I do, am looking at $3,000 - $5,000. If I knew than what I know now!!!!!!!

 

[Big_John]

22" in all the '65 C bodies. If you want to, check the parts manual and you'll see that there is only one core support. '66 did have 22" and 26".

That said, by my observation, it seems like the more that is done to the cooling system as far as adding electric fans etc., the more cooling problems there seems to be.

And what is hot? What t-stat are you using?

 

[Mudeblue]

22" in all the '65 C bodies. If you want to, check the parts manual and you'll see that there is only one core support. '66 did have 22" and 26".

That said, by my observation, it seems like the more that is done to the cooling system as far as adding electric fans etc., the more cooling problems there seems to be.

And what is hot? What t-stat are you using?

Running a 165 but that means nothing. The thermostat temp only is when the thermostat is wide open, i. e. at 195, both a 195 and the 165 are now both.

 

[Big_John]

Running a 165 but that means nothing. The thermostat temp only is when the thermostat is wide open, i. e. at 195, both a 195 and the 165 are now both.

Well, the idea was to fill in a couple more facts... Not to debate.

Sorry I tried to help.

 

[Mudeblue]

Well, the idea was to fill in a couple more facts... Not to debate.

Sorry I tried to help.

Wasn’t debating, just seems when discussing heating problems and thermostat temp.


A question I would have, because you are very knowledgeable, would a 66 support fit in a 65. Right now I have a very nice car but because of a heating problem it sets in the garage! Frustrating!

Well, the idea was to fill in a couple more facts... Not to debate.

Sorry I tried to help.

Sorry, not trying to debate.

 

[65sporty]

Like John asked, what is hot? 210? 220? What are you using to check the temp? Aftermarket gauge or factory gauge?

 

[CBODY67]

There are a few things at play here. One is the physical dimensions of the radiator and another is the cyclonic fan system you have.

From the literature I've seen on aluminum radiators, they apparently are not all built with the same "guts" in tbhem. As to width of the tubes, not just the number of rows of tubes. As some of the composite radiators (aluminum core and plastic tanks) only have two rows of tubes, but they are about 1" front to back, each, which is more fluid flow than three narrower rows of tubes. Plus the 'high efficiency" variations.

As to "heat", in what ambient temperature and what engine temperature? Seems that every time somebody seeks to remedy a "heat" situation, they always head toward a 160 degree F thermostat, which does not help at all. Even if it gets the thermostat open quicker. Just an observation, no more, no less.

As to the issue of possibly using a '66 factory a/c core support, I see no reason the '66 item would not bolt into your '65 car, BUT you'll need a '66 a/c condenser, too, plus any other item which bolts to it that might be different between the two model years. BUT, as 1965 was what I term "a transitionary year" for C-bodies, there might be a few kinks in doing that change.

Now, it might be heresy for me to mention this, but I recently discovered that the radiator for my '77 Camaro 350 V-8 a/c is basically the same size as the radiator in my '70 Monaco with factory a/c 383 car. One key difference is that the Camaro radiator is cross-flow and the Monaco radiator (which goes back to 1967 and maybe 1966) is horizontal flow. Cores are just about the same size, BUT the Camaro radiator is available in the composite construction while the Monaco radiator is pure copper/brass. AND, the Camaro radiator can had for a heck of a lot less money than a Chrysler-application radiator. Just need to figure out a way to mount it and re-plumb the atf cooler lines. But for the price difference, you could spend a bunch to engineer that and still have a lot of money left, it seems.

Sometimes, what might be seen as "popular" can cause issues when it's tried to be used on a Chrysler product. Personally, I'm not a ran or full-aluminum welded-together radiators. In a few years, after they get gunked-up, they become a heavy "beer can" that has to be replaced.

Just some thoughts and observations,
CBODY67

 

[Mudeblue]

Like John asked, what is hot? 210? 220? What are you using to check the temp? Aftermarket gauge or factory gauge?

225 and sometimes +. Used both an electric and mechanical Sport Comp Auto Meter coinciding with steam and fluid coming out of the radiator. Trust me, it’s a heating problem, not a temperature reading problem. How to solve. Getting tired sitting in the driveway with my elbow out the window trying to sound like a pair of glass packs!

 

[CBODY67]

How about some diagnostics? IF allowed to, how far past 225 degrees F will it go if you let it? Is the car sitting still at those times? Does it cool back down once moving? What is the hot base idle speed set at? What ambient temperatures or does it do this on cooler evenings?

How full are you filling the radiator top tank? To the bottom of the filler neck? About 1/2 full? Enough to cover the ends of the tubes in the core? IF you let the coolant "find its own level", where would it end up after a few days of driving?

Perhaps @Gerald Morris might provide some insights as he is in your part of the world with a 22" radiator Chrysler?

Just curious,
CBODY67

 

[3175375]

There are a few things at play here. One is the physical dimensions of the radiator and another is the cyclonic fan system you have.

From the literature I've seen on aluminum radiators, they apparently are not all built with the same "guts" in tbhem. As to width of the tubes, not just the number of rows of tubes. As some of the composite radiators (aluminum core and plastic tanks) only have two rows of tubes, but they are about 1" front to back, each, which is more fluid flow than three narrower rows of tubes. Plus the 'high efficiency" variations.

As to "heat", in what ambient temperature and what engine temperature? Seems that every time somebody seeks to remedy a "heat" situation, they always head toward a 160 degree F thermostat, which does not help at all. Even if it gets the thermostat open quicker. Just an observation, no more, no less.

As to the issue of possibly using a '66 factory a/c core support, I see no reason the '66 item would not bolt into your '65 car, BUT you'll need a '66 a/c condenser, too, plus any other item which bolts to it that might be different between the two model years. BUT, as 1965 was what I term "a transitionary year" for C-bodies, there might be a few kinks in doing that change.

Now, it might be heresy for me to mention this, but I recently discovered that the radiator for my '77 Camaro 350 V-8 a/c is basically the same size as the radiator in my '70 Monaco with factory a/c 383 car. One key difference is that the Camaro radiator is cross-flow and the Monaco radiator (which goes back to 1967 and maybe 1966) is horizontal flow. Cores are just about the same size, BUT the Camaro radiator is available in the composite construction while the Monaco radiator is pure copper/brass. AND, the Camaro radiator can had for a heck of a lot less money than a Chrysler-application radiator. Just need to figure out a way to mount it and re-plumb the atf cooler lines. But for the price difference, you could spend a bunch to engineer that and still have a lot of money left, it seems.

Sometimes, what might be seen as "popular" can cause issues when it's tried to be used on a Chrysler product. Personally, I'm not a ran or full-aluminum welded-together radiators. In a few years, after they get gunked-up, they become a heavy "beer can" that has to be replaced.

Just some thoughts and observations,
CBODY67

I believe that you meant vertical flow when you mentioned the Mopar radiator.

 

[Mudeblue]

There are a few things at play here. One is the physical dimensions of the radiator and another is the cyclonic fan system you have.

From the literature I've seen on aluminum radiators, they apparently are not all built with the same "guts" in tbhem. As to width of the tubes, not just the number of rows of tubes. As some of the composite radiators (aluminum core and plastic tanks) only have two rows of tubes, but they are about 1" front to back, each, which is more fluid flow than three narrower rows of tubes. Plus the 'high efficiency" variations.

As to "heat", in what ambient temperature and what engine temperature? Seems that every time somebody seeks to remedy a "heat" situation, they always head toward a 160 degree F thermostat, which does not help at all. Even if it gets the thermostat open quicker. Just an observation, no more, no less.

As to the issue of possibly using a '66 factory a/c core support, I see no reason the '66 item would not bolt into your '65 car, BUT you'll need a '66 a/c condenser, too, plus any other item which bolts to it that might be different between the two model years. BUT, as 1965 was what I term "a transitionary year" for C-bodies, there might be a few kinks in doing that change.

Now, it might be heresy for me to mention this, but I recently discovered that the radiator for my '77 Camaro 350 V-8 a/c is basically the same size as the radiator in my '70 Monaco with factory a/c 383 car. One key difference is that the Camaro radiator is cross-flow and the Monaco radiator (which goes back to 1967 and maybe 1966) is horizontal flow. Cores are just about the same size, BUT the Camaro radiator is available in the composite construction while the Monaco radiator is pure copper/brass. AND, the Camaro radiator can had for a heck of a lot less money than a Chrysler-application radiator. Just need to figure out a way to mount it and re-plumb the atf cooler lines. But for the price difference, you could spend a bunch to engineer that and still have a lot of money left, it seems.

Sometimes, what might be seen as "popular" can cause issues when it's tried to be used on a Chrysler product. Personally, I'm not a ran or full-aluminum welded-together radiators. In a few years, after they get gunked-up, they become a heavy "beer can" that has to be replaced.

Just some thoughts and observations,
CBODY67

Using an after market A/C; Old Air (installed a Vintage Air in my 66 GTO and Old Air is far superior in performance) with condenser mounted in front of the radiator/core support designed and installed by a very good a/c technician. The compressor came with the serpentine set up which had the A/C, alternator, power steering pump and all as one unit so the compressor not an issue. My concern is that if I go through the trouble, assuming a 66 fits, and move to a 26 inch radiator, I will gain that much since I am only adding 18% more area for air flow and simply not moving enough air through the radiator? Expensive and time consuming project appreciating that I have to tear apart the front of a just finished complete restoration>

 

[Gerald Morris]

Using an after market A/C; Old Air (installed a Vintage Air in my 66 GTO and Old Air is far superior in performance) with condenser mounted in front of the radiator/core support designed and installed by a very good a/c technician. The compressor came with the serpentine set up which had the A/C, alternator, power steering pump and all as one unit so the compressor not an issue. My concern is that if I go through the trouble, assuming a 66 fits, and move to a 26 inch radiator, I will gain that much since I am only adding 18% more area for air flow and simply not moving enough air through the radiator? Expensive and time consuming project appreciating that I have to tear apart the front of a just finished complete restoration>

Stick with the 22" bro. If you have the $, go to U.S. Radiator, and get one of these: Chrysler Newport, 1966-69 V8 383/440 Radiator - US Radiator

OR, try one branded from OER like this:https://www.ebay.com/itm/2664812811...uid=SgPxDwyHTVm&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

OR, shop for a 1965 25249xy series one, meant for AC+AT+Hi alt, like one of the pair of mine!

Also, GET THE DAMNED TRANNY COOLER AND PUT IT UPLINE OF THE ONE ON THE RADIATOR!! By cooling your transmission fluid BEFORE it dump its heat into the radiator, you spare your engine all that heat.

finally, get the genuine RobertShaw 370-180 thermostats.

Do this, and you WILL run nice and COOL, year round. You can do without a mech fan from November through April, using a modest 16" electric to cool the radiator.

As a junkie who has 4 hungry mouths in addition my my own to fill, I have to keep a very tight budget, and manage it nicely. What I do works, and at minimal cost.

If you're anywhere near the Sonoran Desert, a setup like mine will keep your engine safe from heat for a good long time. I've developed this configuration since 2016, and am using the same engine I started with then. You can do it piecemeal too; making one improvement at a time, testing it, then moving on as you like. NO big traumatic job on your ride. Think about that.

 

[Omni]

Good Evening
I am also working on a heat issue on a '65 Newport 383 2V w/add on A/C.
I have a 22" factory shrouded radiator (3 core) and a traditional belt set-up. T Stat is 180 Robert Shaw. I also added an overflow bottle with a 16# pressure relief cap so the radiator if filled to the top.
The over heating issue I am trying to resolve, is when sitting in traffic. The aftermarket gauge (Equis) will run 220+ and that is with my foot on the throttle at about 1200 RPM.
When purchased, the fan set-up was a six blade aftermarket (I am assuming this as the mounting holes are oval and the absence of any part numbers) and no fan clutch. I am in the process of finding a fan clutch and fan that will come as close as possible to what would have been offered at the time.
Gerald Morris has apparently had success with his over heating issues with what he has done. As you live in the same local, I would 'take a page from his book'.
Things I did not see mentioned but have an impact on heating is timing and engine water jacket cleanliness. I would ASSUME all is well however, as Ronald Reagan said: "Trust but Verify".

Merry Christmas
Omni

 

[Gerald Morris]

Good Evening
I am also working on a heat issue on a '65 Newport 383 2V w/add on A/C.
I have a 22" factory shrouded radiator (3 core) and a traditional belt set-up. T Stat is 180 Robert Shaw. I also added an overflow bottle with a 16# pressure relief cap so the radiator if filled to the top.
The over heating issue I am trying to resolve, is when sitting in traffic. The aftermarket gauge (Equis) will run 220+ and that is with my foot on the throttle at about 1200 RPM.
When purchased, the fan set-up was a six blade aftermarket (I am assuming this as the mounting holes are oval and the absence of any part numbers) and no fan clutch. I am in the process of finding a fan clutch and fan that will come as close as possible to what would have been offered at the time.
Gerald Morris has apparently had success with his over heating issues with what he has done. As you live in the same local, I would 'take a page from his book'.
Things I did not see mentioned but have an impact on heating is timing and engine water jacket cleanliness. I would ASSUME all is well however, as Ronald Reagan said: "Trust but Verify".

Merry Christmas
Omni

Yes, test every step or method I recommend. Omni, get a better temp gauge than Equus. Autogauge makes reliable stuff for the $. Get that early 70s 7 blade clutch fan by next summer. You can get by w a cheap A Team 16" electric for the winter, IFF all else is in good order. DO attend to timing and fuel mixture too.

 

[65sporty]

From your first post, you state that you have both push and pull fans. Is this correct? I find that puller fans only work best.

 

[Gerald Morris]

From your first post, you state that you have both push and pull fans. Is this correct? I find that puller fans only work best.

I use the mech puller fan only in hot weather. It's an 18 inch, 2.25 inch pitch 7 blade Mopar clutch fan running w a 1965 shroud. When running at speeds over 35 mph when the ambient temperature exceeds 100F, this fan cools things well, BUT, as an urban dweller, I seldom get such driving conditions. In slow moving, stop and go traffic, I supplement the mech fan w an FFD 3600 electric pusher, controlled by a thermal switch which activates* (grounds) at 210 F coolant temperature, or any time I toggle a switch. THIS insures that plenty air always flows through that radiator in slow, stalled summer traffic, which severely inhibits the working of a belted mech fan spinning at a mere 550-1200 rpm while idling along on a street with a surface temperature as high as 160 F, w ambient temperature over it around 120F.

Once the daytime high temperature falls below 80 F around here, usually in November, I drop that steel salad chopper and run only the electric. It works very well, and in fact cools the engine nicely up until ambient gets around 90F, usually in May. Then, the chopper gets added back on.

The common canard against pusher fans comes from the notion that they block an exaggerated portion of the air flow through the radiator. Modern electric fans, properly mounted obstruct no more than 5% of the radiator surface when not rotating. I've found this well worth the excellent cooling provided even on short duty cycles.

If on a limited budget, and needing to choose between a shroud or a pusher fan, by FAR the better use for the dollar comes with an electric pusher. Shrouds are fine, so long as they fit the fan they're shrouding, and this means a number of constraints. If you have all of the original system meant for your car, that will do well, but many folk looking to enhance their cooling system will need to spend a little time measuring and carefully shopping for the proper fan and shroud combination.

A $50 pusher fan by contrast can be installed in 15 minutes, and will help cool that system nicely. A "no-brainer."

* It cuts out at 180F.

 

[CBODY67]

Most serpentine belt systems do not have an engine-driven fan, using a "puller" electric fan and such instead, only.

In looking at electric cooling fan items for a while, I have noticed all sort of fan designs. Some with straight, angled blades, some with S-shaped blades, two fan systems (one fan runs continuously and the 2nd fan cuts in later), etc. Some of the aftermarket systems seem like they will move enough air to cool a 2000sq ft house? Lots of choices and price points! But which really works best? More research?

Happy Holidays!
CBODY67

 

[polara71]

They worked fine from the factory with what they were built with. Too much back yard engineering going on here.

 

[Mudeblue]

From your first post, you state that you have both push and pull fans. Is this correct? I find that puller fans only work best.

Correct.

 

[Sixpactogo]

It has been mentioned that Mopar upgraded to a 26" radiator in 66 in AC cars. I know this to be true. I believe the 66 Core support will bolt right in your 65 with no trouble. It will help the issue but whether it will cure it remains to be seen. I too, believe a pair of puller fans is better than a combination of both pusher and puller but you need to make sure the shroud is forcing all the air through the radiator. That is why the factory installed the rubber seal between the core support and hood. You also need to take into account the ability of the water pump to work with the thermostat and not against it. You could be moving the coolant too fast and not giving it a chance to cool in the radiator. You could also be moving the coolant too slow which was the case with my car. You have a serpentine set-up so more than likely have an underdrive pulley on your water pump. I ran into that issue with my 440 Six pack Challenger when I installed the serpentine set-up. I had lots of trouble with overheating when caught in traffic or idling. I never did quite conquer the problem but when I installed a high flow water pump, it helped some. IMO, you have plenty of cooling but lack of flow. As I said, everything has to work together as a team.