I have only seen the shoe arcing machine on line, I have never seen one at any of the dealers I worked at let alone the old service stations. Sound great, if you could get a hold of one.
Rear Brake Trouble
- Thread starter 70NewY’ER
- Start date
70NewY’ER
Member
I ordered newer shoes so they shouldn’t have asbestos… I hope. I couldn’t find anyone who arcs shoes near me unfortunately.
rkrochen
Senior Member
I agree the parking brake cable looks too tight but I don’t think it is excessive. If it were the shoes would not be resting against the pin at the anchor. In the pics you can clearly see that they are both resting on the anchor. To me this means they are borderline too tight but should cause the problem.
rags
Senior Member
i think that that is beyond the range of possibilities. if he did find deflection, he should show you how he found it. unfortunately, i don't know that the stuck e-brake is causing an overheating condition so long as the shoes are able to seat on the stop and your not applying the e-brake after doing an assembly and proper adjustment of the service brake. without working on the vehicle, i don't have a good answer for you other than to say that any obvious defects should be repaired before looking for needles in a haystack. does makes me wonder how well the front brakes are working though. good luck with it and thanks for keeping us posted.
70NewY’ER
Member
He apparently used some sort of dial indicator as he spun the wheel. It was a slight bend but I guess it was enough to cause a slight drag on the drum. Parking brake is still on my to-do list. I will keep updating until I fix the issue. Thanks for all of the help so far.
If he's measuring off the wheel, he's doing it wrong. That would indicate a bent wheel.. Did he say how much? If not, well... Find another mechanic.
Honestly, bending an axle is kinda rare.
70NewY’ER
Member
He measured off of the flange I believe. He didn’t give me numeric value… probably my fault for not asking. I thought the same thing. Bending an axle seems like a difficult task.
He should have told you the amount of run out without asking.
If there was any amount that's large enough to cause this brake problem, you would have quite a bit of vibration in the rear while driving.
IMHO, this entire problem is hydraulic... But what do I know?
rags
Senior Member
and how does it relate to brakes overheating. on both sides. run, do not walk, to the nearest exit. given the competence displayed by the professionals working on this vehicle, i'd have cause to question all of the work mentioned in post #1.
70NewY’ER
Member
That’s what I was thinking too. There was never any major vibration that I felt. Kinda strange.
70NewY’ER
Member
Maybe I should just give it a shot myself. But I’m honestly just a backyard mechanic, no real skill haha. I’m somewhat afraid I would screw something up. It’s a shame because I live on an island and it’s tough finding a decent shop. I brought my New Yorker over to a Firestone by me for an alignment and they destroyed my front driver wheel bearing… all the good ones are too far away haha
rags
Senior Member
i would trust you more than the people who have worked on it so far. what you lack in experience, you make up for in caring. what makes rear brakes overheat? dragging or working too hard to stop the car. you have pictures of the drums removed. how difficult were they to get off? easy? they're not dragging 24/7. fronts don't overheat. that eliminates the booster or push rod. you changed the rear hose twice? replaced the distribution block. wheel cyls. good. no low brake pedal or brake pulsation. hydraulic issues are coming down to one last possibility... ask yourself some logical questions about the issue. you actually have more experience with your cars specific issues than anyone else, which makes you well suited to resolve it.
rkrochen
Senior Member
I just reread your post and you say the temp gets to 300F. To be honest I don’t think this is too hot at all. It’s friction/heat that results in braking. Depending on the type of driving you do, how hard you brake and how often, the drums will get heated up. This is normal.
Do some research on what the appropriate temps should be and you will be surprised that they can actually run much hotter. I would be concerned if the drums are turning blue or you have brake fade.
As a point of curiosity, what is your recommendation on a "modern material"? Brand? Type of lining material? Source (if allowed)? On what vehicle(s)?
I'm of the orientation that modern formulations of friction materials has evolved into better (on many levels) frictions that we had in the middle 1960s timeframe. Just curious what you've had good luck with?
CBODY67
70NewY’ER
Member
Right. So the last time I pulled the drum off was a couple of days ago after a short drive (10-15 miles). Rear drums were very warm. Passenger rear tire was smoking a bit and it reeked of brake material. Drum came off with no problems though. This was after I put the new parts on the rear and readjusted. I must have messed up my adjustments along the line. I want to get the car up in the air tomorrow or the next day and readjust all 4 wheels and see if that helps. I’ll keeps everyone posted.
70NewY’ER
Member
UPDATE:
So I decided to test the "bent axle" theory for my own entertainment. The rear end is currently sitting on jack stands. I started the car, let it warm up, and threw it into gear. Then I positioned myself under the wheel well (dangerous, I know) and carefully observed the axle flanges. Driver side had an observable amount of movement, which doesn't seem normal to me. Passenger side was a bit better, but the same type of movement. I can't describe the movement, almost like an elliptical movement rather than the normal circular movement. I also noticed that on both sides, whenever I torque the drums down, it's as if the adjustment gets tighter. Could it be the drum centering itself to the bent flange? Not sure. Ordered new e brake cables even though they seemed to be working. I'm already there, so why not? Anyways, I wanted your guys' opinions before I go spending more money. Thanks all.
So I decided to test the "bent axle" theory for my own entertainment. The rear end is currently sitting on jack stands. I started the car, let it warm up, and threw it into gear. Then I positioned myself under the wheel well (dangerous, I know) and carefully observed the axle flanges. Driver side had an observable amount of movement, which doesn't seem normal to me. Passenger side was a bit better, but the same type of movement. I can't describe the movement, almost like an elliptical movement rather than the normal circular movement. I also noticed that on both sides, whenever I torque the drums down, it's as if the adjustment gets tighter. Could it be the drum centering itself to the bent flange? Not sure. Ordered new e brake cables even though they seemed to be working. I'm already there, so why not? Anyways, I wanted your guys' opinions before I go spending more money. Thanks all.
This makes sense as to getting hot, as the drum rotates it will contact your shoes in low spot of the elliptical rotation. Same thing will happen with a drum out of round and adjusted to the drum, as you drive drum contacts the shoes, friction raises temps, making drum even hotter and warping.
Is there other signs of damage on the axel tubes? If you sight the tubes do they look bent in any direction. The car may have been Duke boy driven in its past and hit a curb or jumped.
Does the drum contact the backing plate?
Is there other signs of damage on the axel tubes? If you sight the tubes do they look bent in any direction. The car may have been Duke boy driven in its past and hit a curb or jumped.
Does the drum contact the backing plate?
How much "play" is in the axle bearings? Or perhaps "wear" might be a better term. With similar wear on the axle bearing surface.
The issue of a bent axle flange causing brake issues might be a bit unusual without not causing a pulsing situation when the brakes were applied, to me.
Reason I ask about the wear on the bearing and surfaces is that on another of my cars, I was hearing a bearing noise from the lh rr wheel, but when I slightly applied the brakes, that noise went away. What was happening was that when I applied the brakes, it re-centered the shaft in the bearing and the noise went away. Taking things apart, the shaft had wear in the bearing area, so new shafts (new OEMs were still available) and new OEM bearings cured that issue for another x000K miles or so.
Perhaps such an issue might explain the "elliptical" situation rather than a well-defined and constant wobble? Have you used a magnetic base dial indicator to check endplay and amount of wobble of the flanges?
Now, IF you might check the toe-in of the rear wheels, there will be a slight amount back there. Something I'd never considered until I read that in a Chilton B-body service manual. "For vehicle stability", they said. After thinking about it, it made sense.
Just some thoughts,
CBODY67
The issue of a bent axle flange causing brake issues might be a bit unusual without not causing a pulsing situation when the brakes were applied, to me.
Reason I ask about the wear on the bearing and surfaces is that on another of my cars, I was hearing a bearing noise from the lh rr wheel, but when I slightly applied the brakes, that noise went away. What was happening was that when I applied the brakes, it re-centered the shaft in the bearing and the noise went away. Taking things apart, the shaft had wear in the bearing area, so new shafts (new OEMs were still available) and new OEM bearings cured that issue for another x000K miles or so.
Perhaps such an issue might explain the "elliptical" situation rather than a well-defined and constant wobble? Have you used a magnetic base dial indicator to check endplay and amount of wobble of the flanges?
Now, IF you might check the toe-in of the rear wheels, there will be a slight amount back there. Something I'd never considered until I read that in a Chilton B-body service manual. "For vehicle stability", they said. After thinking about it, it made sense.
Just some thoughts,
CBODY67
rags
Senior Member
the part to watch is the circumference of the"hub" at the center of the flange. that's the part that centers the drum and wheel. that should be 100%. if it's not, at what point does it represent a problem. your only question is why the rear brakes run hot. i can't see how the first symptom of a bent axle is brake overheating.
i've noticed that but never thought anything of it. i've had cause to check similar things and always bolt everything together as they would be in normal operation. now that the shoes are worn in, the shoes shouldn't drag at all after adjustment. if you leave 'em loose, you might feel a little throw in the brake pedal before they apply, that's all.
coincidentally, that was the side where the e-brake lever was in the applied position. look at the pictures you posted. you should see the different positions of the e-brake levers. the spreader bar should not pushing against the primary (front) shoe at all. if it's not, then it's not causing a problem. thanks for the update.
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rags
Senior Member
a friend had an E350 dually. was destroying the rear tires on the left side in a month. we checked the toe with a tape measure. one inch under on the front sides of the tires. axle housing was bent so bad it was naked eye visible. he had just spent a pile of money having the spring shackles replaced, supposedly to fix the problem. nobody thought to check the obvious.
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