Timing '65 Imperial 413

[volksnut]

What is recommended total timing for this beast. It's pretty stock and rebuilt and installed in my '63 Sweptline with 4 speed, stock 10.1 compression, Elgin 214/224, 444/466 cam, electronic ignition, Eddy carb, Performer intake, dual exhaust. I've heard 12 degree initial with 36 total, sound about right? Also after driving and letting it sit say 10 or 15 minutes it's hard to restart, in fact my 318 does the same thing. Does this sound like a fuel pressure issue, fuel line is out of the heat, and cross over is blocked off also.

 

[Davea Lux]

By hard starting, do you mean that it takes a lot of cranking or is it bumping against the starter as you try to start it?

There have been some issues with the float level setting on the after marked Eddy carbs, some floats are set high and as the engine and carb heat up, the carb will leak fuel down the throat and flood the engine. If you are having to do a lot of cranking followed by black smoke on start up, your carb may be spilling over. Too high of fuel pressure can also cause this condition, are you running a stock fuel pump?

If the engine is bumping against the starter when cranking hot, you have either too much timing or too lean a fuel mixture. The lean fuel mixture will heat the piston tops and cause preignition. Too much advance will do the same thing.

The other question is, 10-1 comp ratio is stock, but not really compatible with ethanol blended fuels. What are you running for gas?

Dave

 

[volksnut]

By hard starting, do you mean that it takes a lot of cranking or is it bumping against the starter as you try to start it?

There have been some issues with the float level setting on the after marked Eddy carbs, some floats are set high and as the engine and carb heat up, the carb will leak fuel down the throat and flood the engine. If you are having to do a lot of cranking followed by black smoke on start up, your carb may be spilling over. Too high of fuel pressure can also cause this condition, are you running a stock fuel pump?

If the engine is bumping against the starter when cranking hot, you have either too much timing or too lean a fuel mixture. The lean fuel mixture will heat the piston tops and cause preignition. Too much advance will do the same thing.

The other question is, 10-1 comp ratio is stock, but not really compatible with ethanol blended fuels. What are you running for gas?

Dave

Hey Dave, sorry I didn't clarify that properly. The starting issue is it's cranking over a lot. And when I buy Eddy carbs or any carb for that matter the first thing I do is adjust the floats, there always off after shipping. I don't believe there's any black smoke but I'll have to look next time when it happens.

For fuel I'm running 93 pump gas.

 

[70bigblockdodge]

Timing is good@ 36 total. With that small of a cam should be good at idle with 12.
Quick check for fuel is, if it is hard starting hot give it a couple of pumps, if it starts quickly then your not getting enough on a hard start. If it is worse/ harder to start your float bowls are boiling gas out into the venturis and you make flooding worse when you pump it.

 

[volksnut]

Timing is good@ 36 total. With that small of a cam should be good at idle with 12.
Quick check for fuel is, if it is hard starting hot give it a couple of pumps, if it starts quickly then your not getting enough on a hard start. If it is worse/ harder to start your float bowls are boiling gas out into the venturis and you make flooding worse when you pump it.

I presently have it set at 12 degrees at idle with vac line plugged, but total is 40, maybe I should back it off to 10 degrees should get me 38 total?. It doesn't ping or is hard to turn over.

When starting hot I do have to give it gas to start, it will just spin over if I don't.

 

[70bigblockdodge]

28 degree swing is a lot. With small cam it should not hurt to have initial at 8-10. If it is a Old Chrysler distributor you would have to disassemble and weld up the slots. On those old ones .010 equals one degree. If you want 4 degrees less, weld up at least .040+ then file back to number you want. I don't know if the engineers planned it that way or got lucky, I would have to believe they designed it like that to simplify manufacturing.
If it idles okay at 8 and total is 36 I would leave it.

 

[Trace 300 Hurst]

28 degree swing is a lot. With small cam it should not hurt to have initial at 8-10. If it is a Old Chrysler distributor you would have to disassemble and weld up the slots. On those old ones .010 equals one degree. If you want 4 degrees less, weld up at least .040+ then file back to number you want. I don't know if the engineers planned it that way or got lucky, I would have to believe they designed it like that to simplify manufacturing.
If it idles okay at 8 and total is 36 I would leave it.

Instead of that tedious welding and filing, just use this absolutely brilliant device. I did, which gives me 14* and 32* (it'll ping at WOT if I go any higher in this 11:1 engine). You simply pick the advance slots you desire, drop it in....done.

FBO Mopar Distributor Limiter Plate

 

[volksnut]

Instead of that tedious welding and filing, just use this absolutely brilliant device. I did, which gives me 14* and 32* (it'll ping at WOT if I go any higher in this 11:1 engine). You simply pick the advance slots you desire, drop it in....done.

FBO Mopar Distributor Limiter Plate

View attachment 507107

View attachment 507106

SWEET!

 

[70bigblockdodge]

Instead of that tedious welding and filing, just use this absolutely brilliant device. I did, which gives me 14* and 32* (it'll ping at WOT if I go any higher in this 11:1 engine). You simply pick the advance slots you desire, drop it in....done.

FBO Mopar Distributor Limiter Plate

View attachment 507107

View attachment 507106

Yes, but tedious part is getting to where you put the plate in. Definitely a option without welding. Welding, a quick run of the file, and a double check measure is not that hard.
The work is: vacuum advance, advance plate, little PITA wire clip, and then your down to the advancer.

 

[CBODY67]

In one respect, the 10.0CR was what the first RB motors had, back in 1957, when Premium fuel was 97 Research Octane, which should be really close to 93 Pump Octane in modern fuels. To me, if it runs well at 10-12 degrees BTDC, that's fine. Key thing is to keep it from having more than just a "trace rattle" at WOT or part throttle cruise accel. Seems that Nick tends to get a few more horsepower at 36 degrees total than 38 degrees total, but that's at WOT and not part-throttle, where everybody drives. But the main thing is to decrease spark clatter and go from there.

The noted Elgin cam is MORE than the orig motors had in them, being more like the later 440/375 cam, in duration and lift. Not what I'd term "small", personally, qll things considered. BTAIM

Enjoy!
CBODY67

 

[volksnut]

Dropped the timing down to 9 degrees and boy was it a turd on the drive in this morning. Like I said it liked 12 degrees and didn't ping so I move it back up this evening. Start issue is still there and forgot to look at the tail pipe on start up...will try to remember tomorrow.

 

[Boydsdodge]

On the engines I tune, stock type engines. I use vacuum, increase advance for highest vacuum, then back off a couple of vacuum inches, take for a drive for bing and hot restart. if no good on either ping or start I back off a bit more till happy. Then I take distributor and install the limiter plate from FBO for my required total.
Working pretty good so far for me. Also adjust the vacuum advance canister tighter or looser for the cruise timing pink knock.
It is easier for me as I use my Sun distributor machine for all the run ups prior to installing in car.

 

[volksnut]

Funny thing, on restart no black smoke, non at all...That's not the funny part, getting to that. The next day I thought I would shoot a little ether down the throat of the carb, still no start..you still have to turn it over a bit to get it to crank. Do you think it's an ignition issue? There's a resister in line and I checked on crank up, it appears it's getting 12v while cranking, any clues?

 

[Boydsdodge]

Your getting spark right away? If it is not getting spark it could be a loose connection, bad ground, ECU, ballast resistor.
It cranks over as soon as you turn the key? Does it want to fire as you let go of the key?

 

[volksnut]

Your getting spark right away? If it is not getting spark it could be a loose connection, bad ground, ECU, ballast resistor.
It cranks over as soon as you turn the key? Does it want to fire as you let go of the key?

Okay was able to check today, and....notice no spark until crank in video 1.

 

[volksnut]

Video 2 was right after video 1, seemed like same no spark condition again but it started right away? Remember it starts right up when cold, it's only when hot and I let it sit a bit that it takes a while.

 

[Davea Lux]

Have you updated the mechanical voltage regulator to an after market electronic type? Can't tell from the under hood photo. Mechanical regulators create static and cause lots of problems with electronic ignition. The electronic ignition will fail eventually if an electronic regulator is not used and will have erratic performance until it does fail.

Dave

 

[volksnut]

Have you updated the mechanical voltage regulator to an after market electronic type? Can't tell from the under hood photo. Mechanical regulators create static and cause lots of problems with electronic ignition. The electronic ignition will fail eventually if an electronic regulator is not used and will have erratic performance until it does fail.

Dave

Yes I did update it to an electronic regulator

 

[Davea Lux]

Yes I did update it to an electronic regulator

In that case, grab a volt meter and check the voltage to the coil with the key on, most of the mopar electronic ignition systems will still have a ballast resistor installed. You should get 6.8 to 8 volts to the coil with the key on. In the start position, the reading should be battery voltage, about 13 volts. Do these tests with the engine warmed up.

Dave

 

[volksnut]

In that case, grab a volt meter and check the voltage to the coil with the key on, most of the mopar electronic ignition systems will still have a ballast resistor installed. You should get 6.8 to 8 volts to the coil with the key on. In the start position, the reading should be battery voltage, about 13 volts. Do these tests with the engine warmed up.

Dave

Ok Dave voltage at coil ignition on is 8.21 volts, and on starting found the problem, first video the ground fell off before it cranked, notice no 12 volts, 2nd video it will show 16volt but too late.