Fratzog
Old Man with a Hat
Was the Royal Monaco a high-line sub-model of C body Monaco?
Need your help on spreadsheet
- Thread starter commando1
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commando1
Old Man with a Hat
Mistake on the chart. No Royal Monaco in 74.
Here's 75
Here's 75
78Brougham
"Chump"
I'm not sure but I think the 67 and 68 Imperial's were still officially D bodies. They shared no body work or trim with any other line in ma Mopars line up. The only thing they shared was unibody construction. That doesn't account for much. It wasn't until the fuselage era in 69 that they started to look like the rest of the Chrysler lineup. Or am I wrong,thoughts anyone?
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Nice work Stan, no arguments from me. Thanks or like or whatever.
can't speak for the other years but for 69 the VIP doesn't say fury anywhere on it. might be splitting hairs but it could be confusing.
A lot of the muscle centric Mopar sites will tell you D bodies were from 57 to 73, because they don't know anything about the full size cars beyond an interest in what they car use to try and resurrect some clapped out Dart.This is a myth spread by the engine pullers that we need to get straight for prosperity like Commando1 is doing with this spreadsheet.
Although the outer sheet metal was unique, the 67/ 68 Imperials were C unibodies under the fancy clothes with the longer Imperial stub frame. Like I've said before, they are stretched Cs or C series Imperials...whatever. Sadly Chrysler Corp did not say much on the matter, kind of like their poor marketing for the Imperial. D body means full frame cars. I have never seen any factory documentation that says otherwise.
I rely on 'eyewitnesses' as my basis ...given I was in the first grade when all this went down ;).
Seriously I'm with Mr. C and others: I think the 67-68 Imperial is a C. I never knew it as anything else. I am not AGAINST others with alternative views and if supported by evidence more persuasive than what I am aware of, my view can change.
If we are going to be the "go to" bunch on C's, it would be great if ANY good evidence, one way or the other, is aired out here. "Unanimity" on the evidence may not be possible.."broad consensus" based on the best facts we have is good enough for me on this particular point.
so one more data point from a public source (link at bottom) - the words of an engineer AT THE time. plus my own personal sources in the 1980's and 1990's, from men/women long retired from Chrysler I knew/know, and other employees who came to our car company FROM Chrysler here in Detroit, and heck even our company's luxury car division's internal product planning archives of competitor products had the Imperial consistently listed: 1967 and 1968 Imperials were "C's".
Gil Cunningham of the Chrysler 300 Club wrote:
"As a Chrysler engineer (1963-1982) I received copies of the Engineering Model Charts every month or so. These were products of Dept. 2120, Engineering Programing, and included a nice readable chart of body designations, car lines, plant line-up, engine availability, etc. There are three areas I would like to note:
1979 Cordoba/Magnum - not directly relevant to this discussion
1981-83 Imperial - may be relevant to people who love the brand
"D" Bodies. The earliest of these charts I have that specifically use the "D" body nomenclature is "V" Series, or 1964 MY. 1962 does not use it and I never located a 1963 Chart so can't say about that. The "D" body designation is used up to "C" Series (1967) when the Imperial is listed as a "C" Body."
"As a Chrysler engineer (1963-1982) I received copies of the Engineering Model Charts every month or so. These were products of Dept. 2120, Engineering Programing, and included a nice readable chart of body designations, car lines, plant line-up, engine availability, etc. There are three areas I would like to note:
1979 Cordoba/Magnum - not directly relevant to this discussion
1981-83 Imperial - may be relevant to people who love the brand
"D" Bodies. The earliest of these charts I have that specifically use the "D" body nomenclature is "V" Series, or 1964 MY. 1962 does not use it and I never located a 1963 Chart so can't say about that. The "D" body designation is used up to "C" Series (1967) when the Imperial is listed as a "C" Body."
Imperial: Y body or C body or D body?
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commando1
Old Man with a Hat
I would be wise to defer to the Imperial experts. Mr C's and Amazinginblue views are the one that I most commonly hear, and it also makes the most logic. There are several Imperial experts here and they should chime in also, if they would.
RE: VIP, damn you. Lol. Another pt. to consider, figure out, and try to handle that. < thinking... >.
RE: VIP, damn you. Lol. Another pt. to consider, figure out, and try to handle that. < thinking... >.
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commando1
Old Man with a Hat
Researching VIP's 1966-1969.
Cant find any reference by Plymouth linking VIP to the Fury line.
The Fury and the VIP appear to be as distinctively different as The Polara and the Monaco. Hmmmm...
commando1
Old Man with a Hat
And you have a "C".
Welcome... Nice Imp. LOL!
I agree somewhat that Plymouth never calls the VIP a fury except that it is always shown in the Fury brochures. My 69 brochure cover says 69 Plymouth Fury but the first page is all about the top of the line VIP. The only difference between the VIP and any other Fury is the side molding and badges. I consider it the top of the line Fury but that's only my opinion.
Maybe the next round needs to identify Trim levels after the first draft is complete.
Maybe the next round needs to identify Trim levels after the first draft is complete.
69CoronetRT
Senior Member
????
Don't over think that one.
The VIP was just the top of the line full sized Plymouth based on the Fury model line. It just has a different name plate for marketing position. (Fury IV?... I don't think so)
Precedence was already set within Plymouth for variances in the name plate/badging as indicated by the different name plates used on the B body Belvedere line. (Belvedere I - Belvedere II - Satellite)
Don't over think that one.
The VIP was just the top of the line full sized Plymouth based on the Fury model line. It just has a different name plate for marketing position. (Fury IV?... I don't think so)
Precedence was already set within Plymouth for variances in the name plate/badging as indicated by the different name plates used on the B body Belvedere line. (Belvedere I - Belvedere II - Satellite)
commando1
Old Man with a Hat
"in the Fury brochures"I agree somewhat that Plymouth never calls the VIP a fury except that it is always shown in the Fury brochures. My 69 brochure cover says 69 Plymouth Fury but the first page is all about the top of the line VIP. The only difference between the VIP and any other Fury is the side molding and badges. I consider it the top of the line Fury but that's only my opinion.
Maybe the next round needs to identify Trim levels after the first draft is com
Excellent point.
"the next round needs to identify Trim levels after the first draft is complete "
That will be fun. There were about a million monikers under Fury alone.
I don't think even a Fury aficionado could name all the different Fury variations and their associated years.
SHOOT.. there have been posts while is was typing..I will leave this post anyway. Sorry if parts of it are redundant.
yup this '69 VIP is a curious one.
Using the spreadsheet at CURRENT level of aggregation and appearance, and NOT proposing any additional complexity (saving that other stuff for next incarnations as shooter65 points out), a couple questions:
A. the VIP is in the "Fury" brochure. its obviously a Fury body with "premium", "uplevel", "high-line" features..but apparently NO "Fury" name on it.
Is is like the "Custom 880" - a car ALL by itself even though it looked like the Polaras/Monacos of 1965 except for badging/features? If so, it needs a "line" on the spreadsheet of its own like the Custom 880?
OR,
B. is the VIP it like the 1975 and 1976 'Royal Monacos" (which still may be an open question?)
First six letters of the VIN of my 1975 Royal Monaco Brougham was "DP29N5" - "P" being "premium" price class. Is this any different than the Furys with "H" or
P", or whatever differentiating model digits that we have called "Furys" for now? So, if the Fury treatment is decided upon, the Royal Monaco "X" should only be in 1977 column on spreadsheet yes?
whatever the consensus is on these two (and any other open issues) we shall see.
to me though, (and I'm a broken record on this to the degree I am even annoying myself) as long as the process for determining "whats what" continues to be data-based to the best of our collective knowledge and a 'preponderance" of the evidence one way or another is examined, the final analysis is on more solid, "expert" footing as was intended.
commando1
Old Man with a Hat
But the Monaco was just the top of the Dodge line.
The parameters have to be consistent throughout or a Sports Fury 3 will end up in there.
My vote is to add VIP for 66-79 using the Chevyboi criteria.
If you look at a car called Plymouth and it had only VIP emblems and you then refer to The Chart, it would not be a C-body. If someone saw a Dodge and it only had Moncao 500 emblems, by the Chart you would know it's a C-body because of the Monaco moniker.
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69CoronetRT
Senior Member
Stay in the Plymouth line up....
I know they are C's......but
The “Y” in the VIN was used instead of the “I” for “Imperial” because the letter I could have easily been confused with a number 1. This is also true for the engine code appearing in the VIN, which never supported the letter I, and there was never a Chrysler 300I. So the Y just refers to Imperial as P refers to Plymouth Furyin the VIN and the Mopar car line designation. It has nothing to do with body designation.
I beg to differ here....
1974 -1975 Imp and 1976-1978 NYB's have a Y stamped on the front lip of the hoods (and other places on these vehicles too). The 1974-1975 NYB's and 1974-1978 Newport's have a C stamped on the hoods. If you park one with a C and one stamped with a Y side by side and you will noticeably see that they are two totally different hoods and headers.
yeah, this looks like the way to go to me with the VIP, so what he said.
keeping in mind a plausible scenario where the smart but relatively uninformed person standing RIGHT NEXT TO ONE in the flesh, only seeing "Plymouth" and "VIP", and NO "Fury" name, how will they KNOW its a "C" if in doubt.. unless they check with "The Chart" and it informs them "dead on, no-sh*t" what they have there.;)
guess we'd have to be sure this VIP "badging" practice was consistent across the non 69 model years..not sure how to do that.
joetrucker
Member
My 2 cents...keep it simple, you're right Stan. ..no need for all fury models listed..imo
commando1
Old Man with a Hat
I went through all the 66-68 lit and it's consistent with adding VIP.
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