1978 Lean Burn Conversion

Chinoz71

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Hi Guys,

I finally got a chance to look more in detail under the hood and let me tell you...its like a time capsule. Everything is factory right down to the belts stamped with "Mopar". I will post pics of the engine compartment tour in another post for you viewing pleasure...:)

The question I have is about replacing the lean burn setup. The car is running rough at idle and hesitates on take off and also everytime the transmission shifts. So far I know that I will need

Distributor
Ballast Resistor
Ignition Module

Is there anything else I am missing? Coil?? While inspecting I found a ballast resistor and ignition module mounted and connected. I thought lean burn cars didnt have these components? Do they need to be replaced? The module looks like someone added a couple of caps grounded to the fender. Any idea why? Where do I go from here? Thanks!

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With my experience with "Electronic Spark Control" on my '80 Newport 360 2bbl, my suggestion would be to do a rebuild on the TQuad with a quality kit AND use the thick OEM carb base gasket (rather than the thinner "cardboard" gasket in most kits).

The ONE time I thought I was having a "lean burn issue" (by '80, the ELB had evolved into ELC, same thing without the "lean" carb orientation), it was not the computer or anything related to it. It turned out to be a poor terminal connection at the plug end of ONE spark plug wire, from a set of wires I'd put on the car after I bought it. Fixed the wire end and no more problems.

In chasing that intermittent problem, I consulted with many Chrysler techs and did my own research. System grounds are very important, but all of mine were intact, plus I cleaned the mounting surfaces for the best conductivity. Like later engine management systems, it's all about "volts and grounds". If the "electrons don't jump right . . ." the computer gets bad/poor information to made decisions with.

By observation, many people who do these conversions end up with a mis-matched system. To me, the best way to do it would be to start with the Mopar Perf Electronic Ignition Kit. That gets you the whole list of things dealing with ignition system. Just put a normal or aftermarket control box with it, other than the Orange Box supplied with it. Then, get a new carb. If you want a pretty-much bolt-on spreadbore, then then TQuad look-alike Street Demon carb might be a good choice. If you want to do an aftermarket intake and squarebore carb possible Edelbrock Performer dual plane), then the Edelbrock AVS2 might be the choice (Summitt has a good price on them right now). You might need to rewire the existing electric choke system, but that's a minor deal.

Doing it this way, what you end up with is a new distributor with a KNOWN advance curve (performance oriented) AND a carb with a KNOWN metering characteristics. "KNOWN" is a key thing as this makes things more "plug and play" trending toward "good results" than using a reman distributor and reman carb, both of unknown internal specifications. Even if you get an aftermarket new distributor, you'll probably have to play with the mechanical advance curve. PLUS the parts in the distributor and kit are OEM Chrysler, so you know where to get parts for it, if needed.

The whole deal about "Lean Burn" was a special-calibrated carb for 16 to 1 cruise A/F ratios (leaner than 15.0 decreases HC to basically "zero", which is why no cat converters were needed to pass federal emissions specs) AND an ignition advance curve to work well with that leaner mixture. When new, those engines really sounded good, as in quiet and energetic. So I know the basic set-up was good to start with.

When anything went wrong, many were very quick to condemn the ELB system, not knowing that something like that would be commonplace 10 years later.

NOT sure about that mass of capacitors and such that's been added to the car. Possibly somebody was trying to chase an ignition noise issue?

One thing about TQuads, although they are a "metering rod" carburetor, with a central "power piston" that runs the metering rods up and down (against spring pressure), when you get the throttle plate off, you'll notice a white plastic, rectangular "paddle" that is operated by a cam on the primary throttle shaft, This makes sure the power piston moves with the throttle shaft. A default mode should the power piston spring fail?

When the power piston spring fails or is not re-installed when the carb's part, it will keep the metering rods "DEEP" into the main jet, resulting in a very lean condition, where all acceleration ends when the accel pump shot is used up. I had that to deal with on my father's '69 Chevy pickup, when it was relatively new. He drove easily, so the power piston would stick in the "economy" (down) position. IF you drove slowly such that no additional mixture enrichment was needed, it was fine. When you throttled into it, after the pump shot was gone, it fell on its face until rpms could build enough (at WOT) for the secondaries to crack open, adding their own fuel to the mix.

Several years ago, a customer called up asking what might be wrong with a '78 Chrysler that belonged to one of his gas customers. I asked what the issue was and I ended up going over tro see what it was. A 30K mile dark green '78 Newport 4-dr, dark green cloth interior, garage kept, and very nice. Starting, it sounded decent. Driving . . . on initial acceleration (at ANY throttle opening), you could have jumped out and pushed it away from a red light quicker than it would move by itself. But, when the rpms (after a near-WOT start) got high enough, it was like the afterburner kicked it. It did this reliably, too! The metering rods were moving, timing was correct, but it all started after the grandson put a set of plug wires on it. DING DING! A check of the firing order revealed that he mixed #5 and #7, which fire consequentially. As they are near each other, probably not too hard to do. When the two wires were swapped into their correct locations. It ran flawlessly AND faster than you'd suspect a std cam 400-4bbl (base engine) would in that car.

So, ignition issues can act the same as fuel system issues, sometimes. Some might disagree, but I'd say "Don't condemn the ELB automatically." What you describe sounds like a carb issue, or at least THAT's where I'd start first. Then, too, some people don't think too much of TQuads, either. Funny thing is that when you open up a Street Demon, it looks like a copy of a TQuad, right down to the tube from the accel pump to the accel pump discharge housing!

You can invest the price of a good carb kit and OEM base gasket to see if you need to go farther. The TQuad isn't very hard to rebuild. I like them much better than the Rochester Quadrajet. IF the carb issues don't fix it, you can do the basic look-see on the ignition system. If you end up doing the conversion, just get the items I mentioned above rather than otherwise, please.

Your car, your time, your money. I respect that.

CBODY67
 
You appear to have a pristine example of a late 70's lean burn that is unmolested.
None of what you are describing necessarily indicates that your lean burn system is failing. I would start by checking tune up issues such as the condition of the distributor cap and rotor and the spark plug gap. Check the condition of the air filter. Sometimes you will find "critter" nests in there that block proper airflow.
The other obvious cause of a rough idle could be an improperly adjusted carb. Idle screws that are set too rich or too lean will cause the issues you are describing at idle.
The hesitation on acceleration could be a bad accelerator pump or improperly set carb float levels. Modern oxygenated fuels create a lot of problems with these older carbs. Floats are often covered by deposits that make them "heavy" so that they do not properly close the needle valves which in turn causes a mis-fire from overly rich fuel mixtures. I would also check the fuel filter to be sure it is not full of gunk. A dirty filter could be causing you engine to be starved for fuel, this would be most obvious under hard acceleration. Finally check to be sure that your battery terminals are clean and free of corrosion. A bad ground to the lean burn electronics will cause all types of malfunctions to occur that will mimic a bad computer.

From what you has describe, I think you most likely have a carb issue, not a computer issue.

Dave
 
Other than those extra condensers, everything looks very unmolested, from what I can see. Plus the vac routing decals and such.

CBODY67
 
Other than those extra capacitors, everything looks very unmolested, from what I can see. Plus the vac routing decals and such.

CBODY67

Those are not capacitors, they are condensers to bleed off any static. This was supposed to help protect the electronics.

Dave
 
Thank you. Yes, the car is unmolested and will be needing plug wires as well. They look like they are cracking after 40 years. I started off thinking this may be a carb issue but dont these lean burn carbs have an issue with warped bases that dont seal well after a while. I like the fact that the car is unmolested and would like to keep it as original as possible.
 
Unless the carb has been off and an aftermarket base gasket has been put on it, the OEM base gasket has bushings in it to prevent cracking the carb base due to over/uneven torque on the nuts. I know that the base will crack before it will bend.

What many mention about "warping" is the phenolic fuel bowl on the TQuads. I"ve seen one that cracked, but not one that was warped. Others will have other thoughts on that, I suspect. The issue there is fuel leaks/seeps from the fuel bowl, which should be obvious. Replacements can be found, too.

CBODY67
 
Thank you. Yes, the car is unmolested and will be needing plug wires as well. They look like they are cracking after 40 years. I started off thinking this may be a carb issue but dont these lean burn carbs have an issue with warped bases that dont seal well after a while. I like the fact that the car is unmolested and would like to keep it as original as possible.

The Thermo-Quad carbs did have issues with warping and cracking. Several things caused that to happen. A stuck heat riser would over heat the carb and toast it. Units that were run hard in hot conditions, such as police cruisers had similar issues. That having been said, most units run in normal driving conditions would not have had these issues until they were fairly high mileage. That is the main reason to be sure and use the thick factory base gasket instead of one of thin ones that sometimes come with the rebuild kit, this helps keep heat away from the carb base and will help compensate for any minor warping. As noted the factory gasket also helps to keep from breaking the carb base when re-installing the carb.

Dave
 
The Thermo-Quad carbs did have issues with warping and cracking. Several things caused that to happen. A stuck heat riser would over heat the carb and toast it. Units that were run hard in hot conditions, such as police cruisers had similar issues. That having been said, most units run in normal driving conditions would not have had these issues until they were fairly high mileage. That is the main reason to be sure and use the thick factory base gasket instead of one of thin ones that sometimes come with the rebuild kit, this helps keep heat away from the carb base and will help compensate for any minor warping.

Dave
Thanks Dave. Great idea on the spacer! I know the heat riser valve on mine is still working.
 
I found the kit at Mikes Carburetor Parts. Here is a video where he isbdescribing the kiy and shows a thick base gasket. Is this the thick spacer gasket you are referring to?
The Thermo-Quad carbs did have issues with warping and cracking. Several things caused that to happen. A stuck heat riser would over heat the carb and toast it. Units that were run hard in hot conditions, such as police cruisers had similar issues. That having been said, most units run in normal driving conditions would not have had these issues until they were fairly high mileage. That is the main reason to be sure and use the thick factory base gasket instead of one of thin ones that sometimes come with the rebuild kit, this helps keep heat away from the carb base and will help compensate for any minor warping. As noted the factory gasket also helps to keep from breaking the carb base when re-installing the carb.

Dave
Hi Dave,

I found the kit at Mikes Carburetor Parts. Here is a video where he is describing the kit and shows a thick base gasket. Is this the thick spacer gasket you are referring to?

Thanks

 
I found the kit at Mikes Carburetor Parts. Here is a video where he isbdescribing the kiy and shows a thick base gasket. Is this the thick spacer gasket you are referring to?

Hi Dave,

I found the kit at Mikes Carburetor Parts. Here is a video where he is describing the kit and shows a thick base gasket. Is this the thick spacer gasket you are referring to?

Thanks



That looks like the right one. The guy did not hold the base gasket still long enough to see if the gasket had the grommets on the corners, but most of the better kits have them.
I would suggest putting new floats in your carb while you have it apart. They are inexpensive and will safe having to tear it apart again later.

Dave
 
So, ignition issues can act the same as fuel system issues, sometimes. Some might disagree, but I'd say "Don't condemn the ELB automatically." What you describe sounds like a carb issue, or at least THAT's where I'd start first. Then, too, some people don't think too much of TQuads, either. Funny thing is that when you open up a Street Demon, it looks like a copy of a TQuad, right down to the tube from the accel pump to the accel pump discharge housing!
Very true. That advice was given to me at a fairly young age and it has served me well over the years. Also those "scotch locks" that spliced your condensers into the wiring are known to be problematic. They were intended for temporary use. Use solder connectors, or just solder, for best results. Always check your ground connections. Good luck and keep us posted.
 
Very true. That advice was given to me at a fairly young age and it has served me well over the years. Also those "scotch locks" that spliced your condensers into the wiring are known to be problematic. They were intended for temporary use. Use solder connectors, or just solder, for best results. Always check your ground connections. Good luck and keep us posted.
Will do! Thank you.
 
i had to do the covert ion for lean burn to electronic, mice made a home in the lean burn ignition box, i bought mine from jegs for like $139.00 for the whole kit

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