383 build for my '65 Fury - Looking for opinions from those who have done it...

[barsteel]

Hello!
When I took my '65 Fury home, I knew that the motor was tired. It smokes, ticks, and generally runs like ****. The (broken) odometer shows 38k miles, so my guess is that the motor probably has close to 150K on it. The car is a Fury III 2 dr hard top with a factory 4spd and a 383 that was a 2bbl but is now a 4bbl. I believe that the rear end is in the 3.2:1 range (factory).

I will not be building the engine for the strip - it will likely see 100% street use. I believe that "there ain't no replacement for displacement", so the plan so far is to use a stroker kit from 440 source to get the cubes into the mid-400s, (450 or so). I will likely never spin the motor much over 5k, and I'm planning on having a well recommended local machine shop build the engine. I have a budget of up to $7,000.

Since I'm spending the money, I want a fast car. Given that the Fury is a fairly heavy car, and that the rear end gears are somewhat high, it seems that building a motor for maximum torque would give me what I want, hence the stroker kit (longer stroke = torque).

Here's what I'd like to know:

1) I have 2406516-8 heads, which have 2.08 intakes and 1.60 exhaust valves. They were used on 64 - 67 361/383/413/426 engines. Can these heads give me the torque needed to get the Fury rolling, or should I spring for aftermarket heads?

2) The engine has an newer Edelbrock 1411 (750cfm electric choke "performance with economy" rating from Edelbrock). The machine shop guy says that a Holley "will get me at least 20 more hp" than an Eddy. I did some interweb reading, and not a lot of people share his opinion. Some people like Hollys, some like Eddys, and they both seem to perform well on all the test reviews I read. Am I really better off with a Holley?

As an aside, Edelbrock's website says that the 1411 "should not be run on an RPM manifold or a Torker II.

3) The engine also has an Edelbrock Torker intake. I've read that I'd really be better off with a dual plane intake for the way I want to drive the car for. Thoughts?

4) I've heard that the stock Chrysler exhaust manifolds flow very well. True? Not true?

5) Of course, there's the camshaft question, which I haven't even started looking into, although I will very likely be staying with a flat tappet hydraulic cam. Thoughts on Specs? 440 Source seems to love Comp Cam Xtreme Energy Hi-Lift .545 and Comp Cam Xtreme Energy Hi-Lift .564"

I hope I'm not kicking a hornet's nest here, but I'm looking for opinions on how to approach this build.

Thanks...

Chris

 

[The Horvaths]

Trick Flow has recently come out with a new pair of aluminum heads for big blocks, which apparently are very nice. I see no reason why a Holly would give you 20 more HP than an Edelbrock. I call bull hockey. Chrysler HP manifolds work very well, but you might consider TTI headers since your budget is so large. I can't comment on the cam choice. Good luck with your build.

 

[barsteel]

Thanks for the input.

The budget is $7K max...if I can get away with less, I certainly want to do so.

What I'm trying to find out is where I'll get the best bang for the buck. This will be a street driven car, so I'm not obsessed with wringing out every last horsepower/pound of torque no matter the cost. If spending and extra $1K will only get me 10 more HP, it's not worth it to me.

Chris

 

[traintech55]

If you can get your cylinders to clean up at .0020 do it, most shops like to do .0030 but why take more out of your cylinders if you don't have to. Also have it totally balanced while being rebuilt. It is not that much more, and your engine will love it.

 

[mlittle]

Back in the late 70's I put headman headers on my '65 fury, I was impressed with the power improvement over the stock "log" type manifolds that came on the 383. The only drawback with the headers was that they would cook the starter motor until I wrapped it with a insulation blanket. Like Horvaths said the HP manifolds found on later B and RB engines flow much better than the stock ones and are what I have on my car now.

 

[65 500]

1. I think the small valve heads will hold a 450 inch motor back.

2. I can almost guarantee the Edelbrock will have much better driveability than any Holley. As for "20 more H.P.", I'm going to have to call B.S. on that too.

3. For the R.P.M. range that you said you were mostly going to run the motor in, I would go with a dual plane manifold.

4. I'm not too convinced that the stock log manifolds flow all that great. I would go with the H.P. manifolds. I also agree that headers cook starters, and they also make changing starters a pain in the ***.

5. Not sure on the cam. Seems to me that I read somewhere that stroker motors can take more cam than regular motors, but I'm not sure of that. If it were a more stock rebuild I would go with a good RV cam (more bottom end torque), .545 inch lift seems like a lot to me.

I believe traintech meant to say .020", and .030". And like he said, have it balanced.
Just my opinion.

 

[70bigblockdodge]

Find a new shop.
No stroker unless going for big HP numbers
No headers if you are not going over 5 k rpm
Eddy will drive better on the street than a holley
Get rid of the torker intake
No advice on cam because no one likes my choices, just call comp cams and they will fix you right up.

 

[barsteel]

Thanks for all the additional replies.

Did some more reading, and yes, the two cam grinds in the OP are probably far too "hot" for how I will drive the car. There are several Comp Cams grinds that would seem a better fit based on their RPM range - XE274H was one that I was looking at.

Question re: balancing - Is balancing something that has to be done with the crank/rods in the engine? I ask because 440 Source has the option of balancing when you order one of their stroker kits. I'm not too familiar with the process, so I don't know if ordering a balanced stroker kit is the same as having the shop do it.

Thanks...

Chris

 

[mr. fix it]

Here is an interesting website details the different areas in which an engine is truly balanced

There are even some items I wasn't taking into consideration when you first started this thread and asking about balancing.

Engine Balancing – balancing pistons, rods and crank.

 

[mr. fix it]

Thanks for all the additional replies.

Did some more reading, and yes, the two cam grinds in the OP are probably far too "hot" for how I will drive the car. There are several Comp Cams grinds that would seem a better fit based on their RPM range - XE274H was one that I was looking at.

Question re: balancing - Is balancing something that has to be done with the crank/rods in the engine? I ask because 440 Source has the option of balancing when you order one of their stroker kits. I'm not too familiar with the process, so I don't know if ordering a balanced stroker kit is the same as having the shop do it.

Thanks...

Chris

Hi Chris.
I'm late into jumping into this thread and this may have been answered but here are my thoughts on this.

I've always had a well known engine shop do my work in the past with all parts in hand coming from the shop itself.

I've learned that it is a good practice to let the MS do all the work from start to finish when it comes to an engine build.
This way they can make minute fitting & balancing changes as they see fit to properly fit everything together

Don't be afraid to ask a ton of questions when talking with true engine builders.

The one I use here in Niagara love it when a customer wants to learn about what they want to do to give you the best possible build on the budget you have.

The biggest question I ask myself now days is "what am I going to do with the car?"

Am I going to just have a really nice cruising machine? if so why dump tons of money into the engine? build it on a moderate budget and seal it up as best as possible so it will have a long and hopefully happy life.

Most engine will spend the tires right out of the box if geared right.

If you are building to impress your friends then chrome it up, beef it up a bit to make it sound cool then call it a day!

If a strip car then go for it and build it as good as possible knowing that it won't last and you had best have a big budget for rebuilding over and over again.
Remember that we are working with 50+ years old engine blocks and cylinder heads unless you spend the vacation fund on a pair of aluminum heads.

Another often overlooked parts of this is the rest of the drive line.
How's that 50 year old trans and differential doing???
Springs, shocks?
What about the rusted frame? if there is this will just accelerate the problem in that area so best fix that up too
All good you hope since the big engine will be pushing those to the limit too if you go wild in the engine..

Something to keep in mind for sure.

Whatever you have decided, I hope you enjoy it!

 

[traintech55]

1. I think the small valve heads will hold a 450 inch motor back.

2. I can almost guarantee the Edelbrock will have much better driveability than any Holley. As for "20 more H.P.", I'm going to have to call B.S. on that too.

3. For the R.P.M. range that you said you were mostly going to run the motor in, I would go with a dual plane manifold.

4. I'm not too convinced that the stock log manifolds flow all that great. I would go with the H.P. manifolds. I also agree that headers cook starters, and they also make changing starters a pain in the ***.

5. Not sure on the cam. Seems to me that I read somewhere that stroker motors can take more cam than regular motors, but I'm not sure of that. If it were a more stock rebuild I would go with a good RV cam (more bottom end torque), .545 inch lift seems like a lot to me.

I believe traintech meant to say .020", and .030". And like he said, have it balanced.
Just my opinion.

Thanks for correcting my mistake. As for balancing the engine, have the rebuilder do it, First he will check you block to make sure what you need, this is especially true of the piston size you will need, you will also have to bring him your Flex plate and Torque converter as they figure in to the mix. Let him get all the parts, this way it will not mess up his warranty on the rebuild. their is nothing worse than to spend $2,500.00 - $3,500.00 on a rebuild and have it go south.

 

[barsteel]

Hi Chris.
I'm late into jumping into this thread and this may have been answered but here are my thoughts on this.

I've always had a well known engine shop do my work in the past with all parts in hand coming from the shop itself.

I've learned that it is a good practice to let the MS do all the work from start to finish when it comes to an engine build.
This way they can make minute fitting & balancing changes as they see fit to properly fit everything together

Don't be afraid to ask a ton of questions when talking with true engine builders.


Thanks for the additional thoughts...Mr Fix it - The rest of the car is in excellent condition. I have a fresh A833 4spd (from previous owner, with receipts), and a solid 8 3/8" rear end in a 99% rust free AZ body. I bought the car because 1) it was a 4spd, 2) most everything besides the motor was "done", and 3) because the body was original and rust free. The springs, suspension, etc, appear to be new, so I'm working with a pretty solid foundation.

I'll read up on engine balancing so I can speak more intelligently about it, and keep reading on everything else.

Thanks...

Chris

The one I use here in Niagara love it when a customer wants to learn about what they want to do to give you the best possible build on the budget you have.

The biggest question I ask myself now days is "what am I going to do with the car?"

Am I going to just have a really nice cruising machine? if so why dump tons of money into the engine? build it on a moderate budget and seal it up as best as possible so it will have a long and hopefully happy life.

Most engine will spend the tires right out of the box if geared right.

If you are building to impress your friends then chrome it up, beef it up a bit to make it sound cool then call it a day!

If a strip car then go for it and build it as good as possible knowing that it won't last and you had best have a big budget for rebuilding over and over again.
Remember that we are working with 50+ years old engine blocks and cylinder heads unless you spend the vacation fund on a pair of aluminum heads.

Another often overlooked parts of this is the rest of the drive line.
How's that 50 year old trans and differential doing???
Springs, shocks?
What about the rusted frame? if there is this will just accelerate the problem in that area so best fix that up too
All good you hope since the big engine will be pushing those to the limit too if you go wild in the engine..

Something to keep in mind for sure.

Whatever you have decided, I hope you enjoy it!

 

[70bigblockdodge]

you will also have to bring him your Flex plate and Torque converter as they figure in to the mix.

I think you mean balancer and flex plate. Torque converter is not normally in balancing as most of its weight is supported by trans input.

 

[mr. fix it]

Thanks for correcting my mistake. As for balancing the engine, have the rebuilder do it, First he will check you block to make sure what you need, this is especially true of the piston size you will need, you will also have to bring him your Flex plate and Torque converter as they figure in to the mix. Let him get all the parts, this way it will not mess up his warranty on the rebuild. their is nothing worse than to spend $2,500.00 - $3,500.00 on a rebuild and have it go south.

Here in Niagara it's more like $5000 and up for a blueprinted & balanced job
I was offered s disassembled 440 last year for $4000 cash

I know that sounds insane but if we want to play we got to pay....

 

[65 500]

I think you mean balancer and flex plate. Torque converter is not normally in balancing as most of its weight is supported by trans input.

It's a 4-speed so it doesn't matter in this case, but they basically need everything that rotates in line with the crank that is bolted to the motor, including the rods and pistons. Everything from the harmonic balancer to the flywheel, and maybe the pressure plate. Ask the machine shop what they need to have to balance it. And no, the parts aren't balanced in the block.

 

[65 500]

Here in Niagara it's more like $5000 and up for a blueprinted & balanced job
I was offered s disassembled 440 last year for $4000 cash

I know that sounds insane but if we want to play we got to pay....

Yeah, but those are Canadian dollars, and everybody knows they aren't worth anything.

 

[mr. fix it]

Yeah, but those are Canadian dollars, and everybody knows they aren't worth anything.

OUCH!!!!!

 

[65 500]

OUCH!!!!!

 

[mr. fix it]

BTW, your Avatar is hilarious!

And Canada is flooded with Americans enjoying a cheap vacation thanks to our Cdn $$ being worthless!

 

[traintech55]

I think you mean balancer and flex plate. Torque converter is not normally in balancing as most of its weight is supported by trans input.

There is a balance weight on the converter that must be taken into account, as well as the harmonic balancer.