400 vs 440 in a 76-78 New Yorker - noticeable difference?

WissaMan

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I've been rolling around in my head getting a 76-78 New Yorker for road trips. Some of them have the 400, some the 440. Of course I'd want the 440 but is there going to be much of a noticeable difference in power, assuming they are both running correctly with a most-likely deleted ELB? I know neither are going to be real peppy as compared to my 68.

I don't really want to do any performance mods except maybe an aluminum intake, carb, and (quiet) dual exhaust
 
Neither are going to be "fast" or "quick", considering their 4500lb + weight. Get one with the 2.71 rear axle ratio. I would suspect the 400 would get better highway mileage, but that could be a wash.
In 1974, in the "heat" of a "fuel crisis", Fenner Tubbs C-P took one of each of their demo fleet and did their own mpg test. They used the Shell station across the street from the dealership as the fueling point. Each car was filled with fuel and then drove south to the Lubbock city limits and then south to the edge of the Caprock. Then turned around and headed north back to the Shell station and the dealership. The fill points were standardized and observed. Then everybody returned to the dealership and the paperwork was done. The highway speeds were 55mph using the factory cruise controls. This was during the national 55nmph speed limit.

Results -- Plymouth Gran Fury 360 2-bbl, 19.66 / Chrysler Newport 400 4-bbl, 20.33 / Chrysler New Yorker 440-4bbl 20.66 mpg For verification, these results were notarized by the dealership's Notary Public. They printed the results, with a sheet for each car, on company letterhead, notarized, and placed prominently on a table in the showroom.

Obviously, many GM owners scoffed at these results, using their Oldsmobiles and Buicks for comparison. If one of these owners was interested in a new Chrysler, they got the keys for a weekend. They all came back and bought Chryslers on Monday.

Now, during this time, I was closely monitoring the highway mileage on our '66 Newport 383-2bbl (Holley 2210 at that time). I was using the amount of throttle percentage to gauge load and ultimate fuel use (air/fuel ratio). My trusty K&E sliderule assisted. I was making it as scientific as possible. On my trips home, I was keeping a log of time/miles spent in each operational mode (city/highway). On the highway portions, the old Chrysler (over 100k miles at the time), using my calibrated foot in place of a cruise control, got just over 20mpg at 55mph. For a car that liked 75-90mph cruising, it was boring "hell", but we got through it. The fantastic long-range reception of the factory AM radio helped. On that first trip, I saw a recent Corvette abiding by the new 55mph speed limit and KNEW what he was experiencing. The mpg and the 55mph Corvette made me smile. Remember, too, this was in flat west Texas and started on the same highway the dealership used for their mpg testing. Before the speed limit changed, the Chrysler would normally average 15-16mph for the same trip, depending on how much time was spent about 75mph. With the 2.76 axle ratio and H78-14 tires, 55mph was 1900rpm and 75mph was 2600rpm. On the new Chryslers, with their larger 15" tires, the rpms would be less.

If you are looking for a car, go into www.hamtramck-historical.com and the Order Guide for the potential model year and look for the axle ratios chart. Seems like they were juggling 2.71 and 3.21 axle ratios aorund a bit back then. Look for the respective option codes so you can look at the Data Plate for verification. Personally, I'd aim for a 2.71 ratio and NOT worry about how much rubber it might lay, but lower rpm at highway cruise mphs.

As for modifications, just a more modern carburetor and a matching ignition system would be the main concerns. As archaic as the OEM 4bbl intake might appear to be compared to an aftermarket Edelbrock unit, I have been surprised how a 1958-era Chrysler 2x4bbl intake made over 500lbs/ft or torque on Nick's dyno one night. That shouldn't have happened, but it did. For general use, though, the Edelbrock might look and be a bit better, though. Perhaps a Street Demon 650 rather than an emissions-compromised TQuad? Or an AVS2 with annular venturis? Several good options that hide under the factory air cleaner.

Just my experiences and observations. Your experiences might vary.
CBODY67
 
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I can believe the MPGs being as you said that it was flat highway. But it's weird that the heaviest car with the largest engine got the best mileage and lightest with the smallest engine got the worst. I'm not doubting the results but just wondering why. Maybe the Gran Fury had a 3.something axle as opposed to a 2.76 in the Newport and NYer?

But my initial question wasn't about MPG, it was about seat 'o the pants power. I'm just wondering if I get a New Yorker with a 400 am I going to forever regret not having a 440? Or would one be hard pressed to really notice much difference considering it's only a 10% difference in displacement?

I'm thinking a well-running and slightly upgraded (76~78) 400 would probably have more power than a bone stock 440 anyway, right?

I just remember when I was a teenager we had a 76 Newport with a 360 2-bbl and it was really slooow.
 
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Well, my 75 was born with a 400-2. Though it never seemed down on power at 185, I wanted a 4 bbl. So that's what I did. New intake and carb. The car doesn't really pick up steam till about 40 or so. But, when it does...away we go! Passing power is much improved. Now as far as a 440, I have no basis for comparison. But torque is what really moves these beasts around. As far as engines and mileage, smaller doesn't exactly mean better. 400 cubes seems to be the ideal size for the 70's. Ford, Chevrolet...small and big block, the latter being 402 and Chrysler all made them. Anything smaller just seems to me, outmatched. That's a lot of car to move around.
 
But my initial question wasn't about MPG, it was about seat 'o the pants power. I'm just wondering if I get a New Yorker with a 400 am I going to forever regret not having a 440? Or would one be hard pressed to really notice much difference considering it's only a 10% difference in displacement?

If you are concerned about "seat 'o the pants power", you should probably look outside of a Formal regardless of engine size. That's not what they are for.

The pure mass of the car will make it difficult to generate any type of acceleration short of a serious and costly engine, transmission, rear end rebuild. A 440 even with 'performance mods' will probably not do what you want. You MIGHT go from a low 22 second quarter mile to a high 21 seconds with the swap.

A 'quiet' exhaust indicates you want a restrictive exhaust which is opposite of what you are trying to accomplish. Why spend the money on an intake and carb only to strangle it with a plugged up exhaust?

I'd have a serious talk with myself as to what it is I really want to accomplish and the best use of my time and money.
 
I understand and appreciate your advice and I already know what I want to accomplish. I have other cars when I want speed. This one would mainly be about comfort, style, and something I can just enjoy. I don't want (or need!) another project car. But I don't want a car that can't "get out of it's own way" so to speak.

My points of reference for 70's boats are the 76 Newport 360-2bbl my Dad owned and a 78 Lincoln Town Car my friend's Dad owned that had a 460. This was 35 years ago, but I remember the Newport was underpowered IMO but the Lincoln was decent and could just about keep up with my Grandfather's 71 Mercury Marquis that had the 429 2-bbl. Those two cars I feel could get along in today's traffic just fine. I feel the Newport would frustrate me.

Unfortunately I can't just go to a dealer and test drive both a New Yorker with a 400 and 440 and compare. So I'm asking for opinions from someone who has had drive time behind the wheel of both, if there is anyone out there who has. Based on the specs I don't think there's going to be a huge difference but just would like to hear other opinions.
 
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Modifying a heavier car is a bit different than a lighter car, as a B-body. The Formals already came with some upgrades from the Fuselage cars. Larger cross-section log exhaust manifolds and exhaust pipe sizes were upgraded to close to 2.5" diameter, in many cases. These things could be seen just by looking at the car (which is when I noticed them as a Chrysler Newport was on the lift at the local dealership. To me, a 360-2bbl makes a good "drive-around" engine in a Formal, but for most anything else, it is too much car for the engine. As with the 383s, the 400s seem to be the best compromise.

For the '74 engines, it was said that Chrysler was seeking to make the engines "a better air pump". Tweaks to the cam for a bit more duration, lift, and overlap. Plus tweaks to the ports and induction-hardened valve seats, too. "Tweaks" rather than more because the end of the B/RB engine family was on the horizon, if not for mpg issues, but for emissions issues due to their CID (which got us the horrendously strangled /6 in '79-era R-cars!). Which led me to an orientation of "a torque motor that rpms" rather than being so tightly focused on 5000rpm power only.

"Torque" to get things initially moving and then free-breathing horsepower to keep things going past that, toward 5000 rpm and ending soon thereafter. To me, if max horsepower has not happened by, say, 5500rpm, not going to happen with a daily-use street engine, no matter the size. Gears can only help so much, but THAT is what modern engines have to help make-up for their lower rpm weaknesses as plateau-level torque curves now peak at close to 4000rpm on everything. As the engines normally cruise at about 1700rpm at 70mph.

When I made my post, it is very possible that "400-4bbl" for the 400 was incorrect and should have been "400 2-bbl". As much of an improvement as the Holley 2210/2245 2bbl were in the venturi area, compared to the earlier Carter BBD and Stromberg WWC, perhaps the triple-boost venturis of the TQuad (similar to the Rochester QuadraJet spreadbore) were the reason the 440 did better AND the reason the TQuad was standard on 400s in later years as emissions regs got tighter? Everything in their demo fleet had the standard engine. Additionally, the TQuad is a "metering rod" carburetor, which should be more-finely tuned for cruise than a "fixed-jet" carburetor ever could be, to me. THISS distinction is what can make any AFB, AVS, or AVS2 carburetor better for ultimate fuel economy than a fixed-jet carburetor, to me. Add the annular discharge venturi of the AVS2 makes things that much better.

There are some engines with spreadbores (and their triple-booster venturis) which, at certain air flow rates that hit a sweet spot rpm which yields improved highway mpg, better than could otherwise be expected. By a couple of mpg, typically.

In one respect, as things have progressed in cyl head development, I wish somebody would further develop B/RB cyl heads to the extent that small block Chevy heads (of any generation) have received. Mostly in port designs with great low-middle range port flow/velocity with better high-lift flow, too. Augmented by a better combustion chamber shape for a faster burn rate in the larger diameter chambers. Just some thoughts and dreams. Then add some 1.6 ratio rocker arms to get the valves open sooner with total lifts of less than .480".

When I saw those mpg results, I dug into my Carter carb spec sheets to see what had changed in the jetting. The result was "not much" other than to possibly meet emissions with lean-limit cruise mixtures.

Sorry for the length,
CBODY67
 
"Keeping up with traffic" is always a variable situation. Are we talking about 80mph on the Interstates? 0-35mph in town? Or the off-idle torque feel of things (whether from actual torque or gearing-related torque)? Metro rather than country can make a big difference, too. NOT to forget that modern commute times are greater than in any prior time! Plus . . . people now tend to be "20 minutes farther away" from where they used to live, or more.

In modern traffic, the bulk of vehicles have an 8+ speed automatic, which means a low gear ratio of 4.50 or deeper with top gear OD being in the .60 range. A gear for everything. Compared to the 2.45 low gear of a 3-speed TF. Trying to compete with them in a 4500lb vehicle with a 3-spd automatic and 2.7 (or even 3.2) gear ratio is a no-win situation. So you tune the motor for off-idle response (higher amounts of spark timing at lower rpms), learn to optimize shift points (raising them a few mph or so), and then optimize driving techniques (keeping vac advance in the distributor, with less rather than more throttle) to get the best response from "the equipment". Upgrading to a Gen III Hemi is not the answer, but upgrading to the 8-speed ZF TF can be.

Enjoy!
CBODY67
 
You'll never notice the difference. You're needlessly agonizing over an insignificant subject. Either way the car is underpowered.
 
I just did a quick google search for the specs.

440: 320 ft-lb of torque @ 2000 rpm
400: 305 ft-lb of torque @ 3200 rpm

I think most people would notice a difference if that is accurate specs.
 
Take that torque difference at the flywheel and decrease it by about 17% to see how much is at the rear wheels. Main difference is in the rpm level, I suspect. IF the rpms are accurate.
 
Slightly off-topic here, but my '66 Newport with a 383-2v and 2.76 has no trouble "keeping up" with normal city traffic. Granted the car is probably 500 lbs. lighter than a Formal, but still, unless someone is driving their Mustang obnoxiously, I don't have any trouble keeping up with the flow of traffic in town, or even on the freeway. I think my engine is rated at 390 ft/lbs of torque, so YMMV. I think @commando1 is on to something though.
 
I've owned many Formals with the B & the RB plant. My opinion is that you can definitely feel the torque of the 440 vs the 400.

My 77 T&C always amazes me on road trips with MPG numbers that defy reason. I got 19.6 MPG (my all time best...I normally would get 18.8) on the prairies last time out.

With my 4 dr and 2 dr Formals, with similar gears I'd get 16 MPG tops.
 
I just did a quick google search for the specs.

440: 320 ft-lb of torque @ 2000 rpm
400: 305 ft-lb of torque @ 3200 rpm

I think most people would notice a difference if that is accurate specs.
I've owned many Formals with the B & the RB plant. My opinion is that you can definitely feel the torque of the 440 vs the 400.

I have a feeling that the RPM where it peaks has just as much to do with it as the difference of 15 ft-lbs.
 
In case anyone is interested, I keep my cars relatively stock but always with a "good tune" (timing plugs wires etc all in good condition, I go through them every season) on them and that is what achieved the numbers above. All my Formals had/ have TQs, however with LB retrofits to Mopar electronic ignition when the LB goes bad.

I don't seem to have the troubles with TQs that many have experienced. I think they are the best carb for modern gas...those plastic bowls do wonders to prevent today's gas from boiling. That's my experience. Plus they have an unequalled sound at WOT!
 
My 78 NYB went 17.3 @ 83mph with the shifter in 2nd gear going through the traps. 440/727 9.25 with 2.7 gear electronic ignition. Dual exhaust. 625cfm Carter Competition AFB.

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I just got my Gran Fury on the road and it has a bone stock 400 HP engine, aside from a Holley 4011 carb and points ignition instead of lean burn, 3.21 gear, and it'll spin the tires about 15 feet out from a dead idle taking off. It's a heavy beast so the actual performance isn't that impressive but it feels and sounds like it has power. Not sure how much stronger the police spec 4 barrel 400 is than the regular 2 bbl, but I'd consider it quite adequate for having fun. It does way better than my R body 318 HP Gran Fury, which has a 2.94 gear and will only chirp the tires if you rev it up against the converter before launching, and doesn't plant you back in the seat nearly as much.

Also those mileage numbers are insane. The best I've gotten the 318 4 bbl to do is 18 mpg on the highway running 55, and it has a lockup converter and MSD ignition. Even my slant 6 Aspen struggles to get 22 mpg. How on earth can a big block compete with them? What's going on with my cars to make them so much worse? Granted my "highway" mileage does involve a few stops here and there navigating to my destination but still.
 
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Granted my "highway" mileage does involve a few stops here and there navigating to my destination but still.

I have two newer cars that have the instantaneous mileage readouts. While they are not necessarily accurate in an absolute sense, they do give me a good idea of what helps and hurts MPG. For instance, I live in hilly northeastern PA and on my Toyota Highlander V6 I average 20~21mpg in town/country driving when I drive easy. But if I reset the calculator and just drive on relatively flat road with little-to-no stopping, it will be up in the 25-26 range. Could possibly be even higher but I can't go more than a couple miles in my area on flat road w/o a stop light.

So those stops and starts have a pretty big effect. Hills less so as long as you can get momentum on the way down and let the car loose speed on the way up. But as soon as you try and maintain a constant MPH on the upside, you're killing your MPG.
 
Buy the cleanest example you can afford in a nice color combo and don't worry about the engine.
 
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