Thanks!! 
65 Fury disc brake conversion advice
- Thread starter 65FuryPaceCar
- Start date
Markus
Member
So if I have read correctly, I DO NOT want to use the factory drum booster on my 67 Fury!?
So what I did was buy the Scarebird brackets and have now started buying the rotors and calipers to make this all complete. My one last question for this conversion is the booster, Can I get it rebuilt or converted to a disc booster? And or can I use a B-body booster since these are more readily available aftermarket? Is there an aftermarket booster/master cylinder YOU GUYS have used with good success?
This whole rebuild started from needing to change out the strut rod bushings!! Now that I have the frontend rebuilt, I refuse to put drums back on. They were pretty touchy to begin with. The wife will love me when I'm done...hopefully
So what I did was buy the Scarebird brackets and have now started buying the rotors and calipers to make this all complete. My one last question for this conversion is the booster, Can I get it rebuilt or converted to a disc booster? And or can I use a B-body booster since these are more readily available aftermarket? Is there an aftermarket booster/master cylinder YOU GUYS have used with good success?
This whole rebuild started from needing to change out the strut rod bushings!! Now that I have the frontend rebuilt, I refuse to put drums back on. They were pretty touchy to begin with. The wife will love me when I'm done...hopefully
Markus
Member
BTW...Thanks Ross for taking the time to write this up! I grew a B-body guy and all this C-body changes has me researching like I'm in school again.
saylor
Senior Member
i can only speak from my own conversion experience - i used the stock power brake single booster on my 68 fury when i swapped and it works just fine. i keep trying to tell people its the pedal effort and not the fluid amount that we are working with here but they dont hear me.
try not to die -
- saylor
try not to die -
- saylor
At the risk of respectfully ruffling some feathers here, while some will claim the drum booster is fine, I am one who says most vehemently it is NOT. The factory had two different boosters for a reason.
All else being equal, the drum booster does not have enough boost to fully energize the disc system in a panic anchors out stop. Yes, for 99% of your braking it will likely be sufficient, but look at this way:
Stopping 20 feet sooner can mean the difference between killing that child that ran out in front of you and not.
Stopping 20 feet sooner can mean you don't broadside that idiot who ran the stop sign, killing him and his passenger, not to say smacking up your ride and injuring or killing yourself and your passengers.
Using a drum brake booster on a factory or aftermarket engineered disc system is also a good way to set yourself up for a lawsuit if the situations above did arise... imagine if someone examined why your old car didn't stop well (NOT uncommon these days) and it was discovered you (possibly not a licensed mechanic) worked on the brakes yourself and installed the wrong booster... the lawyers would have a field day.
Do it right. And as Saylor says, try not to die, and try harder not to kill anyone else.
All else being equal, the drum booster does not have enough boost to fully energize the disc system in a panic anchors out stop. Yes, for 99% of your braking it will likely be sufficient, but look at this way:
Stopping 20 feet sooner can mean the difference between killing that child that ran out in front of you and not.
Stopping 20 feet sooner can mean you don't broadside that idiot who ran the stop sign, killing him and his passenger, not to say smacking up your ride and injuring or killing yourself and your passengers.
Using a drum brake booster on a factory or aftermarket engineered disc system is also a good way to set yourself up for a lawsuit if the situations above did arise... imagine if someone examined why your old car didn't stop well (NOT uncommon these days) and it was discovered you (possibly not a licensed mechanic) worked on the brakes yourself and installed the wrong booster... the lawyers would have a field day.
Do it right. And as Saylor says, try not to die, and try harder not to kill anyone else.
Sorry - regarding the B body disc booster question... the B body disc booster is slightly smaller in diametre and while it will bolt up I have no knowlege as to whether it is suitable or not.
Also a drum brake booster can't be rebuilt and converted into a disc booster as far as I know.
Keep looking. The right boosters are out there.
Also a drum brake booster can't be rebuilt and converted into a disc booster as far as I know.
Keep looking. The right boosters are out there.
twostick
Senior Member
Just to confuse things further, what caliper and master cylinder does the Scarebird setup use?
If they use GM calipers, some of them use larger pistons than the Mopar ones and would require less hydraulic pressure to exert the same clamping force. If that is the case your drum booster MIGHT be sufficient but you would need to know what all the component dimensions were to calculate that out.
That's why I used the factory stuff because it was engineered to be lawsuitproof by people who's business it is to know that stuff.
Kevin
If they use GM calipers, some of them use larger pistons than the Mopar ones and would require less hydraulic pressure to exert the same clamping force. If that is the case your drum booster MIGHT be sufficient but you would need to know what all the component dimensions were to calculate that out.
That's why I used the factory stuff because it was engineered to be lawsuitproof by people who's business it is to know that stuff.
Kevin
Exactly Kevin!!
Markus
Member
Thanks guys!
Scarebird uses 94-99 Dodge Ram 1500 calipers.
Scarebird uses 94-99 Dodge Ram 1500 calipers.
saylor
Senior Member
ill just leave this here
"
Whenever possible and where space allows, it is recommended that you use the largest single-diaphragm unit, as these perform better at lower vacuum pressures. Many pickup trucks use an 11-inch booster canister to provide proper braking pressure.
"
https://www.hemmings.com/magazine/mus/2008/12/Power-brake-boosters/1736741.html
"
Whenever possible and where space allows, it is recommended that you use the largest single-diaphragm unit, as these perform better at lower vacuum pressures. Many pickup trucks use an 11-inch booster canister to provide proper braking pressure.
"
https://www.hemmings.com/magazine/mus/2008/12/Power-brake-boosters/1736741.html
saylor
Senior Member
ok i have reflected upon my standpoint.
if you have the means, get a dual diaphragm booster.
it will be better. no argument. my argument is WHY its better. which is not the question at hand.
so yes.
please. if you can swing it.
- saylor
if you have the means, get a dual diaphragm booster.
it will be better. no argument. my argument is WHY its better. which is not the question at hand.
so yes.
please. if you can swing it.
- saylor
Markus
Member
Hey Ross, I know what you mean about the drum booster not working with a disc brake set up. I did that on my 67 Coronet, I even put a vacuum canister to help out but to no avail. I eventually went to a Hydroboost system with 13" Baer brakes. I'm not going that route again. I wasn't impressed with Baer and their customer service!
Thanks for the help!
Thanks for the help!
65FuryPaceCar
Member
UPDATE: Stainless Steel Brakes FINALLY sent my brakes! It took over 3 months - not the 3 weeks they promised.
Long story short - the boost doesn't work. I called them for diagnostic assistance at which time they told me that cars from the 60's don't produce enough vacuum to power a modern booster.
WHAT THE HELL??? They certainly didn't tell me that or even suggest the possibility that their system may not work on the car we were discussing a system for.
I checked and, sure enough, the car is producing 14-15" vacuum and their system requires a minimum of 18".
Now they say I'll have to spend ANOTHER $350 (already paid them $1200) to get an electric vacuum pump - which is loud and will make my car sound like crap, right?
So 4+ months and $1200 later I cannot drive my car.
DO NOT BUY FROM STAINLESS STEEL BRAKES!!!
Also - any advice you can give would be appreciated.
I don't want to go non-power now that I have discs up front. I think they will require too much braking force for anyone under 300# to drive the car.
Any other ideas?
Long story short - the boost doesn't work. I called them for diagnostic assistance at which time they told me that cars from the 60's don't produce enough vacuum to power a modern booster.
WHAT THE HELL??? They certainly didn't tell me that or even suggest the possibility that their system may not work on the car we were discussing a system for.
I checked and, sure enough, the car is producing 14-15" vacuum and their system requires a minimum of 18".
Now they say I'll have to spend ANOTHER $350 (already paid them $1200) to get an electric vacuum pump - which is loud and will make my car sound like crap, right?
So 4+ months and $1200 later I cannot drive my car.
DO NOT BUY FROM STAINLESS STEEL BRAKES!!!
Also - any advice you can give would be appreciated.
I don't want to go non-power now that I have discs up front. I think they will require too much braking force for anyone under 300# to drive the car.
Any other ideas?
Drag... sorry to hear.
Your car has console shift, so a number of original factory disc boosters should bolt up just fine that were available from 65-73.
Order from Rock Auto - ask for Cardone part number 54-73604 and try what they give you. They will substitute a booster that will work to factoy specs if they aren't able to provide the original booster for that application. So you'll get this sort of thing: "Part may look different but will function properly".
Cardone still lists 54-73604 for '68 Newport with discs - a direct bolt in for all disc equipped C body cars from 65-68.
Product Detail
Start shaking the bushes - the correct booster is out there.
14 - 15 inches doesn't sound like quite enough vacuum - your car should be making 18 - 20. Do you have a different camshaft in there?
Your car has console shift, so a number of original factory disc boosters should bolt up just fine that were available from 65-73.
Order from Rock Auto - ask for Cardone part number 54-73604 and try what they give you. They will substitute a booster that will work to factoy specs if they aren't able to provide the original booster for that application. So you'll get this sort of thing: "Part may look different but will function properly".
Cardone still lists 54-73604 for '68 Newport with discs - a direct bolt in for all disc equipped C body cars from 65-68.
Product Detail
Start shaking the bushes - the correct booster is out there.
14 - 15 inches doesn't sound like quite enough vacuum - your car should be making 18 - 20. Do you have a different camshaft in there?
Last edited:
65FuryPaceCar
Member
Thank you. I think the car may have a mild cam - that was before my time.
Well, that'll do it. A vacuum pump will likely solve the issue, but I'm positive you don't need to pay the BENDOVER price quoted by SSBC... there's got to be an alternative.
Hang in there.
Hang in there.
I suppose it's too late tell them where to stuff their kit...
something is definitely lacking in your transaction... Professionalism. I wish I could send you to a good shop to spend another $1200 to get everything right... but the ones who would care to get everything right are hard to find.Truth is, as a pro... I wouldn't let a modification job in the door... too many liabilities. As an enthusiast trying to help an enthusiast, I say you need to decide how you want to deal with them... and talk to your CC provider to see if you still have any claim ability. I would go over every single detail to with microscopic focus and make sure everything is right. I saw in your other post that your pedal height is wrong. Every single detail, please... brakes are too important.
As to vacuum, I have my doubts. A standard acceptable range is 17-22" at idle. Did you plumb your vacuum from the engine using a correct adapter (very large)? Did you use the proper vacuum booster hose? If so, I doubt vacuum is the culprit here... if your DD loses compression or misfires would the brakes also fail? I have seen 3/8" fuel hose used in place of 11/32" vacuum hose... the fuel hose will suck shut and restrict vacuum.
65FuryPaceCar
Member
I suppose it's too late tell them where to stuff their kit...
Truth is, as a pro... I wouldn't let a modification job in the door... too many liabilities. As an enthusiast trying to help an enthusiast, I say you need to decide how you want to deal with them... and talk to your CC provider to see if you still have any claim ability. I would go over every single detail to with microscopic focus and make sure everything is right. I saw in your other post that your pedal height is wrong. Every single detail, please... brakes are too important.
As to vacuum, I have my doubts. A standard acceptable range is 17-22" at idle. Did you plumb your vacuum from the engine using a correct adapter (very large)? Did you use the proper vacuum booster hose? If so, I doubt vacuum is the culprit here... if your DD loses compression or misfires would the brakes also fail? I have seen 3/8" fuel hose used in place of 11/32" vacuum hose... the fuel hose will suck shut and restrict vacuum.
Thanks for the advice!
Ok, here are a couple of pics of the kit from The Ram Man.
I have this all fitted, bled and tested and all I can say is that it works great. If what you want is fantastic stopping power with a boosted pedal pressure, this will work.
The parts I bought are:
In addition to the above, I replaced my upper and lower ball joints, sway bar bushings, all tie rod ends and front and rear shocks with KYB's.
The LBJ's are not commonly available and are pretty expensive at $140/pair. Ship these to the UK and add tax and they cost me £180.
I bought all the UBJ, bushes, tie rod ends and shocks from Rock as they ship quickly to the UK. One thing to note here was that the new tie rods had a different thread to the originals but I had bought new sleeves too. The sleeves were about 4" too short so I had to split them and weld in a length of 3/4" solid bar.
Changing from drum/drum to disc/drum did require some modification of existing hard lines and making up new lines. I did re-use most of the original steel lines as they were in good condition and fitted with minor adjustments to some bends. The main changes were between the proportioning valve and the metering valve.
I sited my metering valve under the battery tray on the frame where I could easily re-use the front brake hard lines. I needed to make up a small L bracket to mount the metering valve.
A couple of the pipe nuts need changing to bigger 3/8 size. The worst part of the job was getting all the joints leak free. It took me nearly two days and I had to re-do the flares on a couple of the hard lines.
I did not use the firewall reinforcement plate that I had bought because the MC holes and the pedal assembly holes did not line up on my car. I had power drum brakes so I did have a plate on the car already and I modified this plate by enlarging the hole for the booster and then transferring this enlarged hole to the firewall. In the pic, the original plate is on the right.
I must say that the MC itself is a superb bit of kit. It's pricey but obviously high quality and very smooth in operation when I bench bled it.
The bracket on the replacement proportioning valve was slightly loose and I did manage to pull it off. A couple of whacks with a punch soon had it re-fitted tightly.
The only other fitment issue I had was that the calipers did not fit against the brackets and I was unable to fit the pins. I had to slightly relieve the casting on both brackets where the caliper slides up against them.
Here's a couple of pics of the brakes fitted.
The 13" flex hoses do fit but they are tight. I will probably change these for 15" in the near future.
After a couple of short spins around the yard, all I can say is that the braking is what you would expect from a factory fitted power disc system. It is so much better than the drums in terms of actual stopping power and pedal pressure required.
I hope this helps if you're looking for info on a disc swap. You could of course source the parts independently but for me being in the UK, it was easier to buy from a single source and reduce shipping costs.
Cheers
I have this all fitted, bled and tested and all I can say is that it works great. If what you want is fantastic stopping power with a boosted pedal pressure, this will work.
The parts I bought are:
- Dual diaphragm Bendix type booster. Reman by The Ram Man.
- Firewall reinforcement plate
- Dual circuit master cylinder with bench bleed kit. Reman by The Ram Man.
- Proportioning valve and metering valve
- Flex hoses
- Refurb big bearing disc spindles
- Refurb large caliper brackets and bolts to take 11.75" rotors
- Refurb single pot sliding pin calipers and pads
- 11.75" rotors
- Grease seals, grease caps, bearings, spindle retainer hardware
In addition to the above, I replaced my upper and lower ball joints, sway bar bushings, all tie rod ends and front and rear shocks with KYB's.
The LBJ's are not commonly available and are pretty expensive at $140/pair. Ship these to the UK and add tax and they cost me £180.
I bought all the UBJ, bushes, tie rod ends and shocks from Rock as they ship quickly to the UK. One thing to note here was that the new tie rods had a different thread to the originals but I had bought new sleeves too. The sleeves were about 4" too short so I had to split them and weld in a length of 3/4" solid bar.
Changing from drum/drum to disc/drum did require some modification of existing hard lines and making up new lines. I did re-use most of the original steel lines as they were in good condition and fitted with minor adjustments to some bends. The main changes were between the proportioning valve and the metering valve.
I sited my metering valve under the battery tray on the frame where I could easily re-use the front brake hard lines. I needed to make up a small L bracket to mount the metering valve.
A couple of the pipe nuts need changing to bigger 3/8 size. The worst part of the job was getting all the joints leak free. It took me nearly two days and I had to re-do the flares on a couple of the hard lines.
I did not use the firewall reinforcement plate that I had bought because the MC holes and the pedal assembly holes did not line up on my car. I had power drum brakes so I did have a plate on the car already and I modified this plate by enlarging the hole for the booster and then transferring this enlarged hole to the firewall. In the pic, the original plate is on the right.
I must say that the MC itself is a superb bit of kit. It's pricey but obviously high quality and very smooth in operation when I bench bled it.
The bracket on the replacement proportioning valve was slightly loose and I did manage to pull it off. A couple of whacks with a punch soon had it re-fitted tightly.
The only other fitment issue I had was that the calipers did not fit against the brackets and I was unable to fit the pins. I had to slightly relieve the casting on both brackets where the caliper slides up against them.
Here's a couple of pics of the brakes fitted.
The 13" flex hoses do fit but they are tight. I will probably change these for 15" in the near future.
After a couple of short spins around the yard, all I can say is that the braking is what you would expect from a factory fitted power disc system. It is so much better than the drums in terms of actual stopping power and pedal pressure required.
I hope this helps if you're looking for info on a disc swap. You could of course source the parts independently but for me being in the UK, it was easier to buy from a single source and reduce shipping costs.
Cheers
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