(Not "National Automotive Parts Association"?
Front End Rebuild - Firm Feel or any other options?
- Thread starter Ben Herman
- Start date
just rebuilt mine and used parts from firm feel and rare parts(link below). I would highly recommend if your steering gear box, rag joint, tie rods, and ball joints have a lot of miles to replace them as well. I recently did everything you listed and more but didnt really feel the new car tightness in the steering/suspension until the gear box and rag joint were replaced too. Be careful to measure where the torsion bar adjustment bolt needs to go through when welding the plates on the LCA's, I had to trim just a little out of one end of the opening after going to reinstall because I welded them just about 1/4 inch too far to one end and the bold didn't clear as I started tightening down the torsion bars. My torsion bars were still fine so just cleaned them up and repainted but everything else was replaced on the front. I also chose to stay with rubber bushings rather than polyurethane and reused my lower control arm pins and upper control arms. If you're going to install their sway bar kit you might as well upgrade to their heavier duty strut rods IMO which require the aftermarket sway bar anyways. Save yourself the money on their lower control arm pins and tubular upper control arms unless your factory ones are trashed because you won't gain anything noticeable.
Manufacturer of Steering and Suspension Parts - Rare Parts
Ben Herman
Member
One of their steering boxes in on the list. I recently had to mess with the valve body on mine but otherwise haven't torn into it. My rag joint is a little long in the tooth as well so it'll get replaced. All the other steering parts were replaced in 2016 and are luckily in good shape and tight. I'm not too worried about "new car" tightness mostly because I've been driving this car since I was 16 and new cars are the ones that feel "wrong" to me at this point.
I'm hoping to get the arms with the plates already welded on but if I end up doing it I'll keep that in mind.
I don't know for sure that mine are "trashed" but I do know the last time I got it aligned I was told something wasn't straight as it couldn't be adjusted far enough to be perfect. I was "OK" and did fine but I had good bushings and it was as far as it goes. If I take it apart and something comes out in pieces or I find a giant crack, I'm not going to be surprised at all.
As far as rubber vs poly goes; I've done rubber once. its was ok, but I'd like something a bit tighter that will hopefully last longer. I got about 50,000 miles out of the rubber over 7 years. Some of this is on the torsion bars of course which I'm also replacing. I've been in cars with poly bushings. I've heard them squeak. If my car rides half as tight and squeaks twice as loud I'll be happy.
330dTA
Senior Member
Regarding the Torsion Bars, put a set of 1.06” bars into it. You won’t regret.
Ben Herman
Member
Those are the police bars right? I'm still not sure one way or the other. I really wish I knew someone with police bars so I could go for a ride and see if I want that or stiffer. Are the police bars "performance car stiff" like a track built car or just a bit stiffer than stock. Not going all the way stiff is likely the smart choice here as the sway bar will also make a big impact on handling over the stock one.
I haven't talked to anyone who has run the larger ones but I figure someone has to have bought them...
330dTA
Senior Member
I did run a set of 1.06” FF bars i.e. ”Police Bars” on my former ’70 NYer. A big improvement over the standard ”Heavy Duty” bars, which were 0.98”. My present NYer has the 0.98” bars. Not good.
It also had a set of Tubular Upper Control Arms. Everyone who drove car said it was the best handling C-body they had ever driven.
It also had a set of Tubular Upper Control Arms. Everyone who drove car said it was the best handling C-body they had ever driven.
Just Carbs
Well-Known Member
Do you want it to "resemble" the feel and behavior of a race car when you are cruising around? Or do you want it to actually drive like a race car on a racetrack? Two very different things.
Chrysler was nice enough to give use body lean induced front negative camber and rear inside axle tracking.
All that goes away with over stiff front sway bars and added rear sway bars. It will certainly feel like a race car in spirited casual driving, but if you don't have the tires (race) to go with the big bars it will be a handful at 60 in a curve marked 40. The rear is going to come right on around.
As for big torsion bars, they are for supporting more weight at a predetermined amount of travel. Not for stopping instant bottoming on sedans. And they produce excess rebound. For that I use Bilstein's because they are soft for the first 2 inches on jounce and get much stiffer after that. So, they stop bottoming on city streets at modest speeds but still allow the car to maintain flat ride position without porpoising on rolling high speed highway surfaces at speed. Big torsion bars are at odds with that. Old cop cars didn't care about ride comfort.
Urethane? Buy your grease by the case.
Chrysler was nice enough to give use body lean induced front negative camber and rear inside axle tracking.
All that goes away with over stiff front sway bars and added rear sway bars. It will certainly feel like a race car in spirited casual driving, but if you don't have the tires (race) to go with the big bars it will be a handful at 60 in a curve marked 40. The rear is going to come right on around.
As for big torsion bars, they are for supporting more weight at a predetermined amount of travel. Not for stopping instant bottoming on sedans. And they produce excess rebound. For that I use Bilstein's because they are soft for the first 2 inches on jounce and get much stiffer after that. So, they stop bottoming on city streets at modest speeds but still allow the car to maintain flat ride position without porpoising on rolling high speed highway surfaces at speed. Big torsion bars are at odds with that. Old cop cars didn't care about ride comfort.
Urethane? Buy your grease by the case.
fury fan
Senior Member
A torsion bar is a spring, and IMO it will degrade with use like any other spring.
I put 1.12" in one of my Slabs and sometimes I wish I had the 1.06.
With the 1.12 and the KYB shocks it drives much like a modern car, and some days I wish it was just a little softer.
If I had a heavier Fusey, I would probably choose 1.12 again.
The Firm Feel guys said otherwise. I dunno
fury fan
Senior Member
A torsion bar is merely a coil spring in longitudinal shape. And we've all surely seen a coil spring break - either a valve spring, or a die spring, etc.
But perhaps the T-bar's operating conditions are sufficiently different from a VS or die spring that it's a lifetime component. A VS will get hot from duty cycles, a T-bar won't.
They sure do have good reliability. But...
We've all surely seen a car where one T-bar must be cranked up to keep its side of the car level with the other.
Sometimes you hear of a torsion bar breaking - that might be due to surface damage causing a stress riser - or maybe not. Like being weaker and then cranked up - or maybe not.
So IMO there's some evidence that they can degrade.
Not to be argumentative, but would like to know what made them say they don't wear out vs examples above.
When I ordered everything for the front end torsion bars were on the list. I had spent about a grand with them on the phone and we talked torsion bars. They were happy to sell them to me. Mine were not broken and I wasn't interested in a stiffer ride. They said don't buy em.
Ben Herman
Member
I'd like to increase handling. Id assume that negative camber would explain why I keep having to replace tires after eating the sidewalls up... It'll still be a giant car and I doubt I'll entirely get rid of body roll. I just dont want to have people swearing they saw me lift a tire afterwards...
I'd not sure I understand what rear inside axle tracking is or how it works. How would a lack of body roll decrease tracking on a straight axle? I figure the outer tire may see more load than the inner but I doubt that is much different than a stiff car that hasn't tried to roll over. I run decent tires, burn them up, then try different decent tires. When I ran stock size they'd last 10,000 miles or so. I upgraded to 15x8 and now they lasted 25,000 miles. I'm pretty happy with that.
I'd like to size them up because they are sloppy soft. If I used the car soley for casual cruising and the occasion grocery run I'd leave them be. I don't, so I wont. I have the KYB gas charged shocks on it now and it does significantly better. The bilsteins may out-perform these but more spring is clearly in order as well.
I don't mind buying grease. I drive Mopars so I buy grease and oil by the case. As I have said elsewhere I'm not going to be particularly bothered if it makes a little noise.
Ben Herman
Member
I think you're the forst person I've heard from who has actually driven a car with them. How do they ride other than "more modern feeling"? From my conversations with the Firm Feel rep I assume all the comments about riding like an ox cart are overstated? Did you put any of the other parts on my list on?
Ben Herman
Member
The Dead show was great. I decided to spring for pit tickets since this is the first and likely last time I'll get a chance to see them.
There were a few older folks who seemed to have forgotten what a pit is and were being rude to everyone around them but once we got away from them it was a great time.
Ben Herman
Member
This sounds more like what I would expect. With lots of low mileage cars around I could see the expectation of them being good "forever" coming about. I can't imagine that my 250,000 mile springs are as good as new. Everything has a duty cycle and there are only so many times you can twist a piece of any material and expect it to twist back perfectly.
Just Carbs
Well-Known Member
The rear leaf springs are flat and mounted higher at the rear than the front. This causes the rear to actually steer into the turn when the car body leans to the outside of the turn. This is designed to reduce over steer.
If you put stiff roll bars on it without dialing in the total suspension for a particular use the car will feel really good right up until it slides off the road. Part of the program will involve some very expensive tires that don't work in the rain, don't fit under your car, and don't last very long.
Go light on the bars.
I suggest you go with the Bilstein's before doing anything else. That will bring much to light.
Ben Herman
Member
Roads mostly but I've gotten close in a particularly flat field. Check out my T56 thread if you want to be angry.
I've taken folks in my convertible to a few concerts, including the Dead. Great fun.
Let us know how your front end rebuild goes. Need to do my 68 (with front discs).
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