Front End Rebuild - Firm Feel or any other options?

[Ben Herman]

I've finally decided to properly rebuild my front end. First of all I have to hand it to all the crazy guys at car shows telling me my torsion bar suspension is the best thing on the planet. I had a blowout at about 85mph and only noticed because of the boom and funny noise afterwards. It didn't noticeably pull or anything. Of course it happened at 1:30AM on my way back from a Dead and Co concert so I wasn't exactly excited to be changing a tire on the side of the highway... The root cause was that my suspension is so loose my alignment has become so variable the inside of the tire wore through. Considering I was on a 2,000 mile road trip a few weeks beforehand I'm glad it happened 10 miles from home.

I'm currently looking at buying everything from Firm Feel as they seem to be the only option for C bodies. This car is a driver and will see 5-20,000 miles per year. I take it on road trips, down gravel roads, through streams, and faster than I ought to. I'm looking for better/safer handling while retaining just enough street manners to convince the girlfriend it'll be OK to ride in for 13 hours straight. I wouldn't mind clearance coming up by an inch but I doubt I've ever seen it at true "stock" height.

My current parts list is as follows:

'65-'73 C-Body Sway Bar Kit: 1-1/4" w/ Factory Sway Bar App. $500.00​

'65-'73 C-body Greaseable Lower Control Arm Pins $150.00​

'65-'73 C-Body Tubular Upper Control Arms (Urethane Bushings) $450​

C-Body Torsion Bar Dust Boots w/ Retainer Clips $40.00​

1.18" x 47" C-body HD Street/Track (WR 280) $500.00​

I also intend to buy their welded lower control arms but don't see them on the site right now. I would buy the plates but I'd love to have the nice clean set with bushings installed to make my oil covered engine bay a bit prettier.

I got all the bushings and steering components replaced in 2016 but unfortunately let the guy talk me out of urethane so all the rubber is falling apart already. I drive the car far and hard so thats about what I expect for "show quality" parts. He did good work but rubber and oil leaks don't mix. My engine is about to roll over 250k so it wont be not leaking anytime soon. A 440 is on the list but suspension and a few more road trips will come first.

I intend to do the rear leafs as well sometime soonish but will likely make that a separate order. I'll also be installing a Dr Diff 3.23 with a "Sure-Trac II" while the axle is out. Opinions and recommendations on this front are welcome.

What do you see that I can find cheaper elsewhere (or any options to compare to for that matter)? What other options have you used? Just how stiff are 1.18" torsion bars? Any trouble I should expect to run into?


Thanks,
Ben

 

[polara71]

Rubber bushings is all you need.
Buy everything Moog you can.
Reach out to Craig @ Mobileparts here . He has much of what you need. I would only use the specialty place for the unobtainable stuff like lower ball joints.

Spring are a must from Springs and Things aka ESPO.
Dr Diff, yes for the rear. 323s are all you'll likely want .

That's the basics.

 

[Davea Lux]

You will not gain much going to tubular upper control arms and they are probably over kill for your application. The greaseable LCA conversion is a lot sturdier than the factory units but the car will lose any cushion effect from the stock rubber bushings and will probably ride like a truck with lots of impact suspension noise, your car, your call. The factory sway bar has welded brackets on the frame rails, if you car did not come with a sway bar, you will need to make a provision to install the brackets. The white poly bushings offered as a performance upgrade squeak constantly and are annoying to listen to. I installed a set of them on a '65 Fury to try and improve handling, they worked for that, but the constant squeaking and hard thumping on rough roads prompted me to sell the car. Torsion bars usually do no wear out, the 1.25" units were used on some police and trailer options to provide a stiffer ride and increased load capacity, you will probably need to install the heavier rear springs that came with those options to get back to a level ride.

Dave

 

[Ben Herman]

Rubber bushings is all you need.
Buy everything Moog you can.
Reach out to Craig @ Mobileparts here . He has much of what you need. I would only use the specialty place for the unobtainable stuff like lower ball joints.

Spring are a must from Springs and Things aka ESPO.
Dr Diff, yes for the rear. 323s are all you'll likely want .

That's the basics.

That's what I was told last time about rubber. 7 years later I'm finding chunks of them in the driveway. They were all Moog "pre-offshore manufactured".

What is Craigs username? I'll shoot him a message.

I found a website for Springs and Things but no parts listing. Do I just need to contact them or is there a catalog/ online store I can check out?

The 3.23s will be going in to match my .5OD T56 I'll be installing (maybe with the 440, maybe beforehand). I've already been told all about why that's a bad idea. No need to cover that here.

 

[polara71]

The MOOGs I bought last time albeit 5 years ago were all made here or Mexico.
I'd have sent them back if from China. They say the poly bushings are entirely too hard, with no give. I've never used them, I'm fine with rubber.
If you know what you want call ESPO , they'll talk/walk you through what you're looking for.
Update all your hardware.

@mobileparts is Craig's handle. He sells suspension and brake parts.

 

[Ben Herman]

You will not gain much going to tubular upper control arms and they are probably over kill for your application. The greaseable LCA conversion is a lot sturdier than the factory units but the car will lose any cushion effect from the stock rubber bushings and will probably ride like a truck with lots of impact suspension noise, your car, your call. The factory sway bar has welded brackets on the frame rails, if you car did not come with a sway bar, you will need to make a provision to install the brackets. The white poly bushings offered as a performance upgrade squeak constantly and are annoying to listen to. I installed a set of them on a '65 Fury to try and improve handling, they worked for that, but the constant squeaking and hard thumping on rough roads prompted me to sell the car. Torsion bars usually do no wear out, the 1.25" units were used on some police and trailer options to provide a stiffer ride and increased load capacity, you will probably need to install the heavier rear springs that came with those options to get back to a level ride.

Dave

I figured the tubular control arms are overkill but the advertised alignment modifications will suit me well. I certainly don't need it but I want it. I figure I've put enough stress and "events" on the factory arm that it may or may not be straight anymore anyway.

I expect a rougher ride with the urethane bushings. I prefer rough and reliable to doing it again. Squeaks don't bother me much anyway. I've never been one for chasing rattles. For what it's worth these aren't white so they might be a better compound. I planned on doing the solid LCA anyway but the larger sway bar also recommends it to reduce flexing. I also drive a 51 Dodge with tailgate chains. I haven't been bothered enough to put the little sleeves on them either. It certainly makes a racket when you get some air time in it.

I have a factory sway bar so I should be good there. If I need to modify things that's no problem.

Per Firm Feel the police bars are 1.06". These should be a healthy step up in stiffness from them. I was planning to install the "towing duty" or larger rear leafs. A rear sway bar is also on the wish list. I've certainly wished for more stout suspension a few times when I have the truck filled to the brims with luggage and 4-6 people in the car for an 8 hour drive. (my record is 9 people including myself. We didn't go that far.)

 

[polara71]

I have a thread on here somewhere on a suspension I did. Including the rear sway bar and Bilstein shocks.
I didn't do the torsion bars because the general consensus was that it wasn't needed. Everyone was right. My needs are obviously different than yours.

 

[Ben Herman]

I have a thread on here somewhere on a suspension I did. Including the rear sway bar and Bilstein shocks.
I didn't do the torsion bars because the general consensus was that it wasn't needed. Everyone was right. My needs are obviously different than yours.

I'll try and hunt down your thread. How'd you like the rear sway bar?

I decided to try the KYB shocks out before splurging for the Bilsteins. They certainly were a bear to install but handles great so far. I've heard mixed opinions on whether or not torsion bars can wear out. My bars are either tired or too small. I bottom out the suspension more than I'd imagine I should even with fresh shocks. With worn shocks it'd happen at pretty silly times. I have good rubber bump stops installed in 2016 and two guys bouncing the front end can make the crossmember kiss the pavement. Fun trick to do at import shows where most cars won't move a half inch. Less fun when you take a chunk out of the pavement at 50mph.

 

[CBODY67]

I know that many people claim to desire urethane suspension bushings, but there are some places they can be and places they should not be. No urethane on the lower control arm pivot, as that is where softness needs to be, but urethane for the upper control arm bushings as they just pivot. NO urethane on the strut rod front bushings, but urethans on eh sway bar link bushings.

As for the "chunked" Moog rubber bushings, why were the oil leaks not addressed, knowing that oil and rubber do not mix? Ever seen a distressed urethane bushing? They'll crack, too. Then rather than deform for long enough, they break. Fix the oil leaks and put in new rubber items as needed -- period.

Remember, too, that NOS rubber items are still as old as the vehicle typically is, which means that NEW rubber is better and longer-lasting, by observation.

Any compliance you take out of critical suspension points, puts more forces into the body where they were not designed to be. Which is why the hybrid system I mentioned would work better and still have the impact absorption needed for a smoother and quieter ride.

Tubular control arms are popular with the Camaro people, as they offer much more caster than the factory arms will. Which basically gives them a camber-in-the-corner situation that Chryslers already have. Max out the caster with zero camber and minimal toe-in for front end alignment specs.

Perhaps you really need a 2500HD pickup, from the way it sounds. Something nicer for the gf and friends to ride in. That way, a nicer radio to start with . . .

Regards,
CBODY67

 

[CBODY67]

I'll try and hunt down your thread. How'd you like the rear sway bar?

I decided to try the KYB shocks out before splurging for the Bilsteins. They certainly were a bear to install but handles great so far. I've heard mixed opinions on whether or not torsion bars can wear out. My bars are either tired or too small. I bottom out the suspension more than I'd imagine I should even with fresh shocks. With worn shocks it'd happen at pretty silly times. I have good rubber bump stops installed in 2016 and two guys bouncing the front end can make the crossmember kiss the pavement. Fun trick to do at import shows where most cars won't move a half inch. Less fun when you take a chunk out of the pavement at 50mph.

Unlike coil springs, the less tension on a torsion bar, the LESS resistance it offers to bumps and dips. Which means "too soft" for any kind of spirited and SAFE driving, no matter how "cool" it might look. There is a brake trick my friend learned from some city cops years ago (who had '74 Dodge police cars) for driving through dips and such quicker than normal.

Regards,
CBODY67

 

[polara71]

I'll try and hunt down your thread. How'd you like the rear sway bar?

I decided to try the KYB shocks out before splurging for the Bilsteins. They certainly were a bear to install but handles great so far. I've heard mixed opinions on whether or not torsion bars can wear out. My bars are either tired or too small. I bottom out the suspension more than I'd imagine I should even with fresh shocks. With worn shocks it'd happen at pretty silly times. I have good rubber bump stops installed in 2016 and two guys bouncing the front end can make the crossmember kiss the pavement. Fun trick to do at import shows where most cars won't move a half inch. Less fun when you take a chunk out of the pavement at 50mph.

I'm pretty sure it was Firm Feel that sold me the Bilsteins. It added a bit of harshness but the tradeoff was it cornered very well. Of course the whole suspension was new with the rear sway. I was very happy with it.
The torsion bars are either broken or they are good, no? The Firm Feel guys talked me into keeping my original bars . I was prepared to go as big or as good as I needed. Again, different desires.

 

[Ben Herman]

I know that many people claim to desire urethane suspension bushings, but there are some places they can be and places they should not be. No urethane on the lower control arm pivot, as that is where softness needs to be, but urethane for the upper control arm bushings as they just pivot. NO urethane on the strut rod front bushings, but urethans on eh sway bar link bushings.

As for the "chunked" Moog rubber bushings, why were the oil leaks not addressed, knowing that oil and rubber do not mix? Ever seen a distressed urethane bushing? They'll crack, too. Then rather than deform for long enough, they break. Fix the oil leaks and put in new rubber items as needed -- period.

Remember, too, that NOS rubber items are still as old as the vehicle typically is, which means that NEW rubber is better and longer-lasting, by observation.

Any compliance you take out of critical suspension points, puts more forces into the body where they were not designed to be. Which is why the hybrid system I mentioned would work better and still have the impact absorption needed for a smoother and quieter ride.

Tubular control arms are popular with the Camaro people, as they offer much more caster than the factory arms will. Which basically gives them a camber-in-the-corner situation that Chryslers already have. Max out the caster with zero camber and minimal toe-in for front end alignment specs.

Perhaps you really need a 2500HD pickup, from the way it sounds. Something nicer for the gf and friends to ride in. That way, a nicer radio to start with . . .

Regards,
CBODY67

The urethane-rubber combo set up sounds interesting but I'm pretty set on trying it out. Worst case I'll learn my lesson and tear it back apart. They sell them so clearly someone has run them and I haven't heard of any cars falling apart on the freeway.

The previous rubber was not NOS. I was told Moog was actively in the process of off-shoring production and careful selection of suppliers could get the last of the US stock.

My car leaks oil. It will likely continue to leak oil. Most of my other cars, trucks, and buses! leak oil. I unfortunately have a budget and don't have unlimited time. I have to decide what gets fixed when and what is going to get me down the road tomorrow. My Newport was my first car and I expect it to be my last car. It'll probably stain the parking lot at my funeral. I was under the impression that Urethane is oil resistant hence why you can grease them. Besides, the oil spray keeps the rust away, right?

I Imagine the tubular arms aren't going to get me any crazy improvement. I'm already replacing everything else so I might as well get the last piece.

I'll pass on another truck, thanks. I think 3 runners and a parts truck is plenty. I've spent enough getting the factory FM radio working and even a hidden bluetooth module. I don't think I'll need the touchscreen or navigation.

 

[Ben Herman]

I'm pretty sure it was Firm Feel that sold me the Bilsteins. It added a bit of harshness but the tradeoff was it cornered very well. Of course the whole suspension was new with the rear sway. I was very happy with it.
The torsion bars are either broken or they are good, no? The Firm Feel guys talked me into keeping my original bars . I was prepared to go as big or as good as I needed. Again, different desires.

Firm Feel sells the Billsteins. I originally intended to buy them but needed a fast replacement for my blown up Monroes before the last road trip.

I really don't know on the torsion bars. I am no master mechanic and have heard every opinion on them including a guy swearing they were so great I could drive with 3 wheels. If any are worn out mine are. Coming up on 250,000 miles andprobably 60,000 or so with all my tools in the trunk all the time while I lived in appartments and it was my only car. Either way I want something stiffer. It might be smarter to go with the police bars than the extra large ones but I haven't been talked out of it yet.

 

[Ben Herman]

Unlike coil springs, the less tension on a torsion bar, the LESS resistance it offers to bumps and dips. Which means "too soft" for any kind of spirited and SAFE driving, no matter how "cool" it might look. There is a brake trick my friend learned from some city cops years ago (who had '74 Dodge police cars) for driving through dips and such quicker than normal.

Regards,
CBODY67

wouldn't any spring offer less resistance when less loaded including coils? I really don't have much experience with coils as most of my stuff is on the antique side. The best trick I've found so far for not eating steering wheel is to drive slightly less like a moron. I'm learning but not quite there yet.

 

[volksworld]

a rubber bushing bonds to its outer sleeve and its inner shaft...when the shaft rotates the rubber itself twists and springs back when unloaded...a urethane bushing is stiff and does not twist...the shaft rotates inside it...so it tends to wear out from the friction of the rotating shaft...and depending on the application the rotation of the shaft inside the bushing makes a nails-on-a-blackboard squeak that can drive you crazy...hence the reason many are greasable and they've tried to blend graphite into many of them

 

[CBODY67]

wouldn't any spring offer less resistance when less loaded including coils? I really don't have much experience with coils as most of my stuff is on the antique side. The best trick I've found so far for not eating steering wheel is to drive slightly less like a moron. I'm learning but not quite there yet.

On a torsion bar, the more tension you put on it (as in raising the front ride height), the stiffer it gets. Less tension, lower and softer.

 

[Ben Herman]

a rubber bushing bonds to its outer sleeve and its inner shaft...when the shaft rotates the rubber itself twists and springs back when unloaded...a urethane bushing is stiff and does not twist...the shaft rotates inside it...so it tends to wear out from the friction of the rotating shaft...and depending on the application the rotation of the shaft inside the bushing makes a nails-on-a-blackboard squeak that can drive you crazy...hence the reason many are greasable and they've tried to blend graphite into many of them

Interesting. I assume you are talking about the lower control arm bushing here as the pictures I've seen look like it has an interior and exterior metal sleeve. Wouldn't the greasable pin negate the wear issue there assuming you add it to your regular greasing schedule? I always assumed urethane squeaks were caused by the urethane sliding across metal. I've heard lots of arguments about whether or not it is caused by improper installation, specific compound, what sort of metal its up against, etc. I figure I'll do my best and deal with the consequences.

With the graphite blend do you mean they blend/impregnate the bushing or is there a recommended graphite grease? I'm not particularly worried about noises but I don't want to damage or wear something out pre-maturely because I pumped the wrong grease into it. Been there, done that... Napa's wheel bearing grease is NOT rated for disc brake applications.

 

[CBODY67]

Not NAPA, but Ford-spec disc brake wheel bearing lube is moly fortified. MUCH better than normal wheel bearing/chassis grease. Especially if you get the synthetic Valvoline Ford-spec lube in a tube. For the proposed amount to spend on the front end of that car, surely a little bit more for BETTER grease would be a minor investment.

There have been many attempts to quieten the urethane suspension bushings since they were first introduced several decades ago by Global West. People initially lauded then, but as they wore, the squeaks happened, which resulted in the grease fittings and then the graphite-impregnated urethane. I'm not sure they have really gotten then as quite at the rubber bushings they replace.

Regards,
CBODY67

 

[Ben Herman]

Not NAPA, but Ford-spec disc brake wheel bearing lube is moly fortified. MUCH better than normal wheel bearing/chassis grease. Especially if you get the synthetic Valvoline Ford-spec lube in a tube. For the proposed amount to spend on the front end of that car, surely a little bit more for BETTER grease would be a minor investment.

There have been many attempts to quieten the urethane suspension bushings since they were first introduced several decades ago by Global West. People initially lauded then, but as they wore, the squeaks happened, which resulted in the grease fittings and then the graphite-impregnated urethane. I'm not sure they have really gotten then as quite at the rubber bushings they replace.

Regards,
CBODY67

The Napa stuff was old and I assumed Napa=good. After it blew up I decided to read the fine print on the back that said it was for drums only. The stuff I have now is Valvoline but I don't know if its the Ford Spec. Old stuff that hardly contains the grease anyway gets tubes of Harbor Freights finest. Anything I install gets whatever variety of fancy red stuff I happen across at the time.

Spending this much on parts I figure I ought to do some research and pick out something nice.

 

[mobileparts]

See your P.M.....
Incidentally, Napa stands for :
" Never American Parts Available "....