How to adjust caster (if indeed you can with stock parts?)

[413]

Yes I know I will get some guages.

But besides toe adjustments there's only 2 frigging upper-arm bolts and if I've got them set for max caster then having guages is not going to get me more caster, and if I'm not going to get more caster then I'm not going to get any self centering.

I haven't driven this car much in the past 2 years, maybe 10 very careful slow miles and haven't driven it at all for 20 years before that. I've forgotten how it's supposed to handle, but I know I don't like how it's driving now after a complete stub rebuild.

Max caster is a fine goal. But we want the car to drive good. The caster needs to be even side to side or the car wil, put from uneven caster.. Camber can make it pull also, so camber needs to be even also.

It's not as easy as cranking the eccentrics all out on front and in on rear. Look at the eccentrics of cars that drive nice. The eccentrics are all over the board due to tolerances in the frame and suspension parts. The alignment man adjusted them so the setting are correct.

I've never needed offset bushings to get a car to drive nice, and you don't need more than 2,3,4 degrees of caster either.

Now for the guy with locking rear brakes and steering that always self steers by itself. You must fix both of these before driving this car anymore or adjusting anything else. You have entered the beating you head against the wall stage of the game, can't win the alignment battle this way.

So on the steering pull from the steering box valve adjustment. Jack the front off the ground and on stands. Start the car and watch the steering wheel. The goal it the steering wheel to stay still, no movement either direction. No movement at all. Not even a hair. This is important. If it moves either way them loosen and slide the valve forward or back and restart engine until it doesn't move one bit on start up. If it is way off it will do a full turn to one side by itself.

I'm all for people getting there own measuring equipment and doing it at home, and learning.

Your power steering is not an automatic transmission. Use power steering fluid in the PS system. If it was mine I would flush out that ATF+4. Return hose in a can and just crank engine until it's clear. Don't start engine, fluid will blast everywhere.

 

[Gerald Morris]

Max caster is a fine goal. But we want the car to drive good. The caster needs to be even side to side or the car wil, put from uneven caster.. Camber can make it pull also, so camber needs to be even also.

It's not as easy as cranking the eccentrics all out on front and in on rear. Look at the eccentrics of cars that drive nice. The eccentrics are all over the board due to tolerances in the frame and suspension parts. The alignment man adjusted them so the setting are correct.

You're SOOOOOO right! Here, look at the old settings for my UCA bushings, which I happened to preserve as a starting place for the post-op recovery:

The above was BEFORE. Note how I lined out the settings in white xylene paint from one of those Milwaukee pens.

Now for the post-op, again, left side first:

And the passenger side:

I've never needed offset bushings to get a car to drive nice, and you don't need more than 2,3,4 degrees of caster either.

It occurs to me the use of such in my case might have been a mistake. I'll see how well I can set things first, STARTING with the old marks, measuring and testing carefully, then, if necessary, I'll roll the cams out and in. I suspect I need to bring the right toe in a little, as the old tie rod was BENT, and I expect when I crank it in a few 1/16s it will true up. I want at most that 1/8" in and no more!

....

Anyway, I mostly need to use the 3 hrs of bearable temperature I get from dawn to 08:30 on that precious level slab in the sun. I'm contriving some better alignment tools today toward that end...

 

[MoPar~Man]

Max caster is a fine goal. But we want the car to drive good. The caster needs to be even side to side or the car wil, put from uneven caster.. Camber can make it pull also, so camber needs to be even also.

It's not as easy as cranking the eccentrics all out on front and in on rear. Look at the eccentrics of cars that drive nice. The eccentrics are all over the board due to tolerances in the frame and suspension parts. The alignment man adjusted them so the setting are correct.

I've never needed offset bushings to get a car to drive nice, and you don't need more than 2,3,4 degrees of caster either.

Now for the guy with locking rear brakes and steering that always self steers by itself. You must fix both of these before driving this car anymore or adjusting anything else. You have entered the beating you head against the wall stage of the game, can't win the alignment battle this way.

So on the steering pull from the steering box valve adjustment. Jack the front off the ground and on stands. Start the car and watch the steering wheel. The goal it the steering wheel to stay still, no movement either direction. No movement at all. Not even a hair. This is important. If it moves either way them loosen and slide the valve forward or back and restart engine until it doesn't move one bit on start up. If it is way off it will do a full turn to one side by itself.

I'm all for people getting there own measuring equipment and doing it at home, and learning.

Your power steering is not an automatic transmission. Use power steering fluid in the PS system. If it was mine I would flush out that ATF+4. Return hose in a can and just crank engine until it's clear. Don't start engine, fluid will blast everywhere.

Ok, this is a huge update. And preliminary results came in yesterday.

To re-cap:

Late 2023 or early 2024: obtained a used stub frame for my '67 Monaco. It came with everything still attached except trans mount and spindles. Even came with steering gear.

First quarter 2024: dismantled the stub frame, got it powder coated.

June to August 2024: removed old stub frame from my '67 Monaco, swapped in the new stub. Original steering gear had a bit of a leak at the steering shaft input, so I took this top part of the gear apart to change the seal. Didn't take the entire unit apart. Just that top large ring nut and a few parts under it. Didn't touch valve body.

August 2024 to November 2024: Steering gear doesn't leak, but the steering is squirrely. When parked , engine running, it wants to turn by itself. When driving it also wants to turn left or right, can't let go of the wheel at all. I put the car away for the winter, not sure how I'm going to tackle this. Changing the stub means everything is new, I'm thinking maybe the caster isin't there, caster is supposed to help front wheels stay straight, same idea for a bike (front forks bend forward, gives front wheel positive caster, gravity tends to make front wheel stay pointed straight ahead).

4 days ago, a full month later than I was planning (life got in the way) I got the car out of storage and drove it home. Steering still squirrely. My plan - take the steering gear that was on the used stub and swap it in place of my now suspect original gear. I did this on Sunday and Monday. Yesterday I fired up the engine - the steering wheel stayed put. I turn the steering wheel, the front wheels follow, but they don't over-react, they stop when I stop. Today I just drove it a little in my parking lot, it seems fine.

I have one rear tire that locks up during moderate braking, I noticed that last year and it's still there. Today I took that brake apart, the shoes look maybe oil soaked, I think the wheel cylinder has been leaking, it's not the original cylinder but it is 30 years old. I have a new one, and new shoes, and I put them on today. The short section of brake line (3 ft maybe) that runs from the splitter block mounted to the axle to the wheel cylinder I had to twist (and break) at the tube nut (rust siezed) so I'll be plumbing in a new piece of brake line tomorrow and can give the car an actual road test.

 

[Gerald Morris]

Ok, this is a huge update. And preliminary results came in yesterday.

To re-cap:
....
the tube nut (rust siezed) so I'll be plumbing in a new piece of brake line tomorrow and can give the car an actual road test.

Good work and progress! I came to this thread being in the "alignment phase" of my front end rebuild. I'm assembling a few needful things to finish the job now. The Big constraint remains getting work done before the SOLAR TORCH makes the concrete slab I must work on intolerably HOT. This occurs by 0830, and with a trailer full of little girls and a young wife, I have many calls on my time....

 

[MoPar~Man]

Good work and progress! I came to this thread being in the "alignment phase" of my front end rebuild. I'm assembling a few needful things to finish the job now. The Big constraint remains getting work done before the SOLAR TORCH makes the concrete slab I must work on intolerably HOT. This occurs by 0830, and with a trailer full of little girls and a young wife, I have many calls on my time....

Yea - I was trying to figure out if what I was seeing was caused by mis-alignment, or if there is really something wrong with the steering gear. I really changed too many things at once, but it couldn't be helped. There is a lot of black magic happening in that steering gear.

I think setting up the alignment on any old car is not as critical today with radial tires that last thousands of miles vs the tires these cars originally had - bias tires that maybe gave you 20k miles? The bias tires were really sensitive to inflation pressure and camber if what I've read is correct.

When I started this work last year I bought a 10 x 20 steel-tube frame tent. Got it on sale for $400. It's been beat up by some really high winds and heavy snow, but it's still standing, and it keeps me in the shade. Get yourself a cheap tent like this and it will extend the number of hours in the day that you can work on your car in that AZ sun!

 

[Just Carbs]

Yea - I was trying to figure out if what I was seeing was caused by mis-alignment, or if there is really something wrong with the steering gear. I really changed too many things at once, but it couldn't be helped. There is a lot of black magic happening in that steering gear.

I think setting up the alignment on any old car is not as critical today with radial tires that last thousands of miles vs the tires these cars originally had - bias tires that maybe gave you 20k miles? The bias tires were really sensitive to inflation pressure and camber if what I've read is correct.

When I started this work last year I bought a 10 x 20 steel-tube frame tent. Got it on sale for $400. It's been beat up by some really high winds and heavy snow, but it's still standing, and it keeps me in the shade. Get yourself a cheap tent like this and it will extend the number of hours in the day that you can work on your car in that AZ sun!

And stick a little portable floor standing a/c in the tent. Doesn't have to cool the whole thing, just the area where the works being done.
Works great I tell you, great.

 

[Gerald Morris]

Yea - I was trying to figure out if what I was seeing was caused by mis-alignment, or if there is really something wrong with the steering gear. I really changed too many things at once, but it couldn't be helped. There is a lot of black magic happening in that steering gear.

I know about multivariable equations without enough of them to solve! Sole the stuff you can, one step at a time. I'm doing EXACTLY the same thing myself this very evening, tomorrow morning, and until EVERY DAMNED DETAIL IS 100% RIGHT! Why? Well, I just got home after a CATASTROPHIC FAILURE OF A 57 YR OLD STAMPED STEEL RIM COMING APART ON MY LEFT FRONT WHEEL IN MOVING TRAFFIC! This merits it's own thread, and will get it.

I think setting up the alignment on any old car is not as critical today with radial tires that last thousands of miles vs the tires these cars originally had - bias tires that maybe gave you 20k miles? The bias tires were really sensitive to inflation pressure and camber if what I've read is correct.

Don't tolerate slop bro. I just had a "slight leftward pull" which became a wheel rolling free from the brake drum at an intersection. Thanks be to God I was just accelerating, doing maybe 30 mph when this funky **** went down. LOOK!

This clear path got cut by my damned brake drum rolling on hot asphalt. I'm GLAD IT COULD ROLL!!! I had slowed to probably 15 mph when the thing dropped onto it. It was only 105F in the westering sun as I jacked the bumper up from near 0 inches to tire changing, AFTER prying the bent remnant of the inner disc of the shitty stamped steel 14 inch factory rim which separated. Again, I thank the Lord, ALL His Saints and Angels that this occurred AFTER I let my little girl out of the car for her art class, and before I had got up to my usual speed.

I've NEVER SEEN THIS KIND OF **** BEFORE IN 62 YRS, 11 MOS AND 3 WEEKS. Ruined the BRAND NEW TIRE also!

When I started this work last year I bought a 10 x 20 steel-tube frame tent. Got it on sale for $400. It's been beat up by some really high winds and heavy snow, but it's still standing, and it keeps me in the shade. Get yourself a cheap tent like this and it will extend the number of hours in the day that you can work on your car in that AZ sun!

I can get one of those for considerably less. The Issue here is compounded by the fact that the SLAB is NOT ON DIRT I RENT! I've damned sure thought about doing so tho.

 

[MoPar~Man]

Your wheel failure - I don't know what to say. I wonder how many miles that rim had on it. Maybe they do have a life span. The center disk on that rim looks flat, not fluted. I did a quick search on the net for steel rim center failures, there are a few, very few. I hope there wasn't much else damaged on the car. Front drums?

 

[Gerald Morris]

Your wheel failure - I don't know what to say. I wonder how many miles that rim had on it. Maybe they do have a life span. The center disk on that rim looks flat, not fluted. I did a quick search on the net for steel rim center failures, there are a few, very few. I hope there wasn't much else damaged on the car. Front drums?

Will look carefully tomorrow morn. Mind you, the brakes don't shimmy when applying them, which bodes well. Taco drums shimmy. Despite the impact, there WAS a warning interval of a couple seconds (at most) which sufficed for me to bring speed down. Also, the rim didn't fail all at once, but in stages. First, the severe wobble, then the final separation. Damned BAD **** tho. Imagine that on my family car, loaded, speeding down I-10 through Texas Canyon.... I'm ditching ALL those 14 inch rims! Some beancounter endangered human lives with that design!