Once again...

[tbm3fan]

I did mention a few weeks back after my long drive the car wouldn't start the next day. Checked the coil and it was in specs. So I pulled the Ignitor II out and put in an untouched spare. Car started up right away. Great, so I took it out for a 40 mile drive. Next morning it wouldn't start again. Well I just checked out the Ignitor module and it is definitely out of spec in less than 15 hours.

So I pulled everything and threw in a Mopar ignition using a very nice, clean, rebuilt distributor and standard coil. Of course the car wouldn't start like back in 2010 with the stock ignition. In run I get a steady 6.8 volts. In start I get only 8.8 volts max. In my splice, which I used to power the Pertronix, I get 10.2 volts. The splice comes off the blue wire before it goes into the ballast resistor.

Now where is full voltage in start?

 

[Davea Lux]

I did mention a few weeks back after my long drive the car wouldn't start the next day. Checked the coil and it was in specs. So I pulled the Ignitor II out and put in an untouched spare. Car started up right away. Great, so I took it out for a 40 mile drive. Next morning it wouldn't start again. Well I just checked out the Ignitor module and it is definitely out of spec in less than 15 hours.

So I pulled everything and threw in a Mopar ignition using a very nice, clean, rebuilt distributor and standard coil. Of course the car wouldn't start like back in 2010 with the stock ignition. In run I get a steady 6.8 volts. In start I get only 8.8 volts max. In my splice, which I used to power the Pertronix, I get 10.2 volts. The splice comes off the blue wire before it goes into the ballast resistor.

Now where is full voltage in start?

You probably need to come up with the stock ballast resistor to start with. Most aftermarket ignitions use a dual path ballast resistor, this will not provide enough voltage to start the car effectively with a stock ignition setup. You should be able to bypass the start side of the dual path ballast resistor by hooking into the terminal on the input side of the resistor. If you are not getting 12v to the input side of the resistor, you either have a corroded ignition switch or a resistance wire installed on the input side of the ballast resistor. Could also have a corroded connection on the firewall plug.
Repeated failures of electronic ignition systems on pre 1969 auto's with mechanical voltage regulators is common. This is caused by the static produced by the opening and closing of mechanical breaker points in the old style regulators. Always replace the the mechanical regulator with an electronic one when doing an electronic ignition upgrade. Going to the '69 and later alternator is also a good idea.

Dave

 

[tbm3fan]

This is stock 1973 system in a 1973 car. I simply re-installed a 1973 rebuilt distributor and a Standard coil needing the external resistor already on the bulkhead.

Have come to the conclusion that I can completely eliminate the ballast resistor if I put in a coil such as the Pertronix 40,000v 1.5ohm or MSD Blaster. Then I can run battery voltage to the coil at all times.

If I do that, and most likely will, then there is the thought of running battery voltage off the large stud on the starter relay to a Tyco SPDT relay. From there to + coil. Question would be where to get the trigger line from?

 

[66Newyorker]

You should be able to get your trigger from your ignition switch. I would think you will need both start and run going to the power wire for the relay coil.

 

[Big_John]

Have come to the conclusion that I can completely eliminate the ballast resistor if I put in a coil such as the Pertronix 40,000v 1.5ohm or MSD Blaster. Then I can run battery voltage to the coil at all times.

If you are running the Pertronix II, you can bypass the resistor and not have to change the stock coil. The Pertronix coil will give you a "hotter" spark and will work nicely with the system, but it's not necessary.

 

[tbm3fan]

If you are running the Pertronix II, you can bypass the resistor and not have to change the stock coil. The Pertronix coil will give you a "hotter" spark and will work nicely with the system, but it's not necessary.

Is not the ballast in place to allow a stock coil to last longer as compared to hitting it with higher voltage???

At the moment I have given up on the Pertronix 2 module. Blew two of them in one week. Meanwhile the F100 and Park Lane have had theirs for 8 years now with no issues. Will be talking to Pertronix today to see if there is any reason the Mopar has a problem with the modules. That makes a total of three that the car has used. At a hundred dollars a pop I don't want to go down a possible rat hole.

Everything I read seems to say the Mopar electronic system can handle full voltage if I eliminate the old style stock type of coil for a high performance coil. Just like Pertronix and GM HEI can and want full voltage. Next question was whether or not the 45 year old wiring system can actually supply 12V in start conditions. The highest I have ever measured for start in my car was 10.2V. Hence my reading on Allpar about a relay for full voltage. I know the relays made a big difference in my headlights.

For the last two years in order to start the car I have used a remote starter with the key in "run" to get the car to start. That was using the complete Pertronix set up and have to say the car started instantly. Only downside was the remote starter wires going between the fender and cowl, behind the door, and into the car to sit on top of the carpet with a loop around the hood release. Would be nice to use the key and as we should remember I had to replace the ignition switch last summer when it had issues so it is fresh.

 

[66Newyorker]

Sounds like you have some bigger issues. You might be getting voltage drop through the bulkhead connectors and the amp gauge if your car has one. I would take care of some of the low voltage stuff before doing another electronic ignition. There are a few threads about electrical problems with our cars. Using a remote starter is not the best thing to do. You also need to check the ground side of everything. Best way to do that is by checking the mv of the ground circuit from the component to the battery, like doing voltage drop on the positive side.

 

[Big_John]

Is not the ballast in place to allow a stock coil to last longer as compared to hitting it with higher voltage???

The Pertronix module limits voltage/current to the coil internally.

Reference: http://pertronix.com/docs/instruction-sheets/91382.pdf Wiring instructions-2-A

Possibly, the problem may be that you are only getting 6.8 volts at the ignition. Pertronix specs 8 volts minimum.

Reference: https://static.summitracing.com/global/images/instructions/pnx ignitor ii tests.pdf

 

[FURYGT]

Here is my blatant self-promotion:

High Quality Mopar Replacement Or Conversion Ignition Module / ECU Black 5-Pin | eBay

Let's see, $28 shipped via USPS Priority Mail gets you a marine grade 5-Pin high quality ignition module for a Chrysler style electronic ignition system (that can be used with a 4-Pin connector with a dummy hole for the 4th pin vs. $100 each for Pertronix. (BTW, I also sell the solid state electronic voltage regulators for the pre-1970 cars)

Had one of the first era Pertronix units on a car a long time ago and it worked great but if you break down, unless you have a spare you likely are not going to be able to find one.

Sound like you may have a problem with your wiring. Suggest you search for the MOPAR Performance Electronic Ignition Wiring Diagram.

 

[tbm3fan]

I obviously do not understand the electronic ignition on a Mopar. Seems I am pretty much back to where I was in 2009 about a month after I got the car. Spent three weeks trying to get it to start but wouldn't so I went to Pertronix.

So I messed around with the ignition for 2 hours just now. Measured voltage in all different positions. First, the connections on the ballast resistor were present. The brown wire to + coil, left off the coil, measured 11.4 volts. Connected to coil it measured 6.5 volts. What??? My splice off the blue wire (for Pertronix) before the ballast was also 11.4 volts unconnected. Connected to coil now 10.2 volts. Now in start with brown on the coil I got 8.8-9.0 volts. The splice (Pertronix) gave me zero which tells me I was never getting power from Ign 2 but only from Ign 1. So remote starter went in years ago.

Now if I completely disconnect the ballast I get 0 volts everywhere. With the ballast connection for the blue and black wire disconnected the two wires from above measured 11.4 volts again. In start the brown wire now on the coil was either 6.5 volts or 0 volts. You can tell I can't keep these things straight. Maybe there might never be enough volts in start to get the engine going.

Looking over the wiring diagram, while doing all this, didn't really seem to help. Having two positions in the ignition for start and run might mean I can never get one original wire for the coil. My Fords are so easy to bypass the resistor wire to supply 12 volts to the coil at all times. There is a short pigtail right at the ignition switch where you can unplug the pink wire and connect a new wire and run that to the coil. Now 12 volts in start and run. Easy. Right now I am leaning towards putting in a relay which pulls 12 volts off the large stud on the starter relay at all times and be done with it.

 

[tbm3fan]

Here is my blatant self-promotion:

High Quality Mopar Replacement Or Conversion Ignition Module / ECU Black 5-Pin | eBay

Let's see, $28 shipped via USPS Priority Mail gets you a marine grade 5-Pin high quality ignition module for a Chrysler style electronic ignition system (that can be used with a 4-Pin connector with a dummy hole for the 4th pin vs. $100 each for Pertronix. (BTW, I also sell the solid state electronic voltage regulators for the pre-1970 cars)

Had one of the first era Pertronix units on a car a long time ago and it worked great but if you break down, unless you have a spare you likely are not going to be able to find one.

Sound like you may have a problem with your wiring. Suggest you search for the MOPAR Performance Electronic Ignition Wiring Diagram.

The only application I can see this having on my 1973 would be to go to a 2 pin ballast instead of my 4 pin ballast. What I want is no ballast and 12 volts all the time. Am I wrong or does this have some value for my car even when I get 12 volts to the coil and no ballast.

 

[tbm3fan]

Reading more can I simply put in two jumpers to bypass the BR or gut it and solder wires behind it to act like jumpers which are invisible. I can quickly make two jumpers tomorrow to try it out and check voltage at coil +. Saw the jumper idea on the B body forum. What affect, if any, on the connected ECU? I know in the picture the person is using a module in the distributor which is why he disconnected his ECU below.

 

[FURYGT]

The only application I can see this having on my 1973 would be to go to a 2 pin ballast instead of my 4 pin ballast. What I want is no ballast and 12 volts all the time. Am I wrong or does this have some value for my car even when I get 12 volts to the coil and no ballast.

FYI, the MOPAR Performance electronic ignition conversion kit can be used with either a 2 or a 4 wire ballast resistor and comes with a 4-pin ballast resistor.

What I don't understand is why you would convert a '73 model car, which came from the factory with electronic ignition to a Pertronix conversion. Please confirm that you did the Pertronix conversion on a points type distributor.

Please elaborate on anything else done to the ignition system and whether or not you have pulled and inspected the ballast resistor. We really need some more information to help.

 

[Big_John]

I think we are all confused here but what I see needs to happen is some diagnosis of the stock type ignition that you have reinstalled. Everyone (myself included) is getting hung up on the Pertronix and from what you've written, that is out of the picture now.

This has one of the better explanations of how the Mopar electronic ignitions work and has a good troubleshooting procedure.
Chrysler Electronic Ignition System

 

[tbm3fan]

Spent another 2 1/2 hours on the car this evening and couldn't start the car. This is what made me abandon the Mopar ignition system in 2009, and put in the Pertronix, before I was a member here.

So several things are going on here. I made that bypass I pictured above for the four connections to the BR. Now in run I get 10.2 volts. In start I get only 8.5-8.8 volts. That's better than yesterday with the BR in place but I know it still won't fire in start with that voltage. Tried the past way of using the remote starter to start the car while in run with the 10.2 volts. It wouldn't even catch. The distributor is a stock 1973 Mopar distributor. I'm using a Pertronix 40,000 1.5 ohm coil with the standard blk/yel and brown wires attached.

Now once while trying to start I got a nice loud retort out of the carb. I only removed one Mopar distributor with the Pertronix 2 in it and replace it with another Mopar distributor with the stock electronics. So no way to set in 180 off since it was one out and one in immediately. I know I am close but which way to turn the distributor to get it to start. I have mostly been turning it CCW a little at a time. Using the remote it doesn't do anything until the moment when you release the trigger and there is a faint rumble. However, no back fires.

I wish there was an easier way to get the engine to TDC besides using the remote starter but I can't get any kind of socket/ratchet in past the trans lines and the fan. That way I could rotate the distributor a little to set a paddle right across from the pickup. Then I could rotate CCW a little bit to go advanced. It would be more accurate than bumping the engine.

 

[tbm3fan]

I think we are all confused here but what I see needs to happen is some diagnosis of the stock type ignition that you have reinstalled. Everyone (myself included) is getting hung up on the Pertronix and from what you've written, that is out of the picture now.

This has one of the better explanations of how the Mopar electronic ignitions work and has a good troubleshooting procedure.
Chrysler Electronic Ignition System

I saw a comment in there about the 5 ohm side of the BR protecting the ECU. So does that mean the Mopar ECU can't handle 12 volts? Does it also mean I'll blow mine out even with 10.2 volts?

When companies upgraded their electronics from 6 volt to 12 volt they didn't do it for the ignition which is why we got coils using external resistors to protect the points and coils. Technology wouldn't allow it then but later I think the companies were just being cheap in not redesigning that portion of their ignition system. Now everything is 12 volts and I would like 12 volts to this car just like my other cars have.

 

[Big_John]

I saw a comment in there about the 5 ohm side of the BR protecting the ECU. So does that mean the Mopar ECU can't handle 12 volts? Does it also mean I'll blow mine out even with 10.2 volts?

When companies upgraded their electronics from 6 volt to 12 volt they didn't do it for the ignition which is why we got coils using external resistors to protect the points and coils. Technology wouldn't allow it then but later I think the companies were just being cheap in not redesigning that portion of their ignition system. Now everything is 12 volts and I would like 12 volts to this car just like my other cars have.

The stock ECU does have a 12 volt feed at pin 1.

With the ballast bypassed, you should have 12 volts. First, I really don't suggest bypassing the ballast resistor with the stock ECU, but it shows you have some sort of issue with the wiring to the ignition switch. As Dave suggested, there could be a problem at the connections at the firewall or I'll suggest taking a look at the problematic plug under the steering column too. I think you need look at those problem areas before you spend a lot of time with this.

Try this. With the ballast resistor in place (no jumpers), I would run a jumper wire from a good 12 volt source (like the starter relay) directly to the plus terminal on the coil. That will bypass all the wiring from the ignition switch.

The stock Mopar ignition is pretty trouble free, but since you seem to want to have an ignition that runs without the ballast resistor, I suggest looking at the GM HEI conversion with the corresponding E-core coil. You use the stock Mopar distributor and I believe it's a good, trouble free conversion. You still will need to troubleshoot the wiring from your ignition switch as this isn't going to cure any of those problems.

Mopar HEI Conversion

HEI Electronic Ignition Retrofit How-To - Slant Six Forum

 

[tbm3fan]

Big_John you might remember that last summer I had issues with my ignition switch and I eventually replaced the switch. While under the dash I mentioned that the horseshoe shaped connector was burned where the large red power wire passed through. A twist connector was used by the PO to connect those two above the connector. I took off the twist connector, used a bare metal splice for the two ends, soldered over that and covered in shrink tubing. The other connectors looked Ok to me eye at the time. I can look at that again as it is easy to access. If there is anything going on inside a loom I would just leave it alone. Why?

I have been thinking hard about the GM HEI. I see no reason why I can't run a full 12 volts at least today. My Fords actually run 13.2 volts through Pertronix 2 in them with the resistor wire out for years. Your link for the HEI mount and the other link with the needed pieces has sealed the idea in my mind. The second link also talks about using a direct 12 volt tap from battery, alternator or starter relay using a Bosch relay. Allpar mentions the same thing and that is what I will do. That eliminates the need for 12 volts through the ignition switch as it is just a trigger now.

I will note that there is a black 8 gauge wire close by the coil which uses a white connector Which I also see is burned inside. Looks to be R6D-8BK to me. Male-female round terminals inside which are also a bit black looking. Can't really clean them off. Don't understand why this break was put into the wire. If I am reading the wiring diagram correctly this wire is involved in the ammeter through bulkhead 9 &13, also the Battery terminal on the starter relay, and to + on the battery coming off B alternator. The wire is also pretty taut as it is yet it seems the connector needs to be cut out. What would you suggest to connect such a substantial wire as this one is? Isn't this one of the wires mentioned to bypass, as a bare minimum, to route power from Alt - Starter Relay according to MAD? I wonder if I should go the full MAD route by routing new wiring through the bulkhead connector after splicing the ammeter wires together? Of course, the trick is getting behind the dash panel with enough space to use tools.

 

[Big_John]

I will note that there is a black 8 gauge wire close by the coil which uses a white connector Which I also see is burned inside. Looks to be R6D-8BK to me. Male-female round terminals inside which are also a bit black looking. Can't really clean them off. Don't understand why this break was put into the wire. If I am reading the wiring diagram correctly this wire is involved in the ammeter through bulkhead 9 &13, also the Battery terminal on the starter relay, and to + on the battery coming off B alternator. The wire is also pretty taut as it is yet it seems the connector needs to be cut out. What would you suggest to connect such a substantial wire as this one is? Isn't this one of the wires mentioned to bypass, as a bare minimum, to route power from Alt - Starter Relay according to MAD? I wonder if I should go the full MAD route by routing new wiring through the bulkhead connector after splicing the ammeter wires together? Of course, the trick is getting behind the dash panel with enough space to use tools.

I only have a '73 Dodge FSM, but it does show that wire with a fusible link. That does feed the ignition switch etc., so it could be a source of problems if the fusible link is compromised.

The MAD "upgrade" isn't necessary on a '73 because the factory basically did the wiring much differently and the ammeter does not take the full amount of current through it like the older cars did.

 

[commando1]

The MAD "upgrade" isn't necessary on a '73 because the factory basically did the wiring much differently and the ammeter does not take the full amount of current through it like the older cars did

I always assumed that was a 74+ changeover.
When did they stop running the entire power grid through a teensy gauge?