PH23 vs PH29

[Analog Kid]

Can someone explain what the difference is between a PH23 (2 door hardtop) and a PH29 (2 door sports hardtop) is?

Specifically for 1972 - since I thought they got rid of the Sport Fury and replaced it with the Gran Fury.

Thanks,

DW

 

[CanCritter]

p23 convex back window......p29 concave back window.....

 

[FURYGT]

This is a situation where in my opinion, Chrysler screwed up. In '67 & '68, the "23" body type/roof style was the 2 door hardtop and the "29" body type was the 2 door fast top. From '69 - '73 the "23" was the coupe with what I like to call the "outie" rear window as the rear window curved outward and the "29" became the formal hardtop with the "innie" curved inward rear window (only available on Plymouths) but in Chrysler parts books they did not use the Formal Roof nomenclature or anything else to clarify the body style differences making it difficult to find parts that are specific to the two different body styles.

'71 was the last year for the Sport Fury. The Gran Coupe arrived in '70 and '69 was the last year for the VIP. The Gran Coupe started out as a Fury II 2 door sedan with a Sport Fury grille, an upscale interior, usually in a Paisley pattern and a vinyl roof, again typically in a Paisley pattern and a specific group of options. In 71 the Gran Coupe used the 2 door hardtop formal roof body instead of the 2 door (post) sedan (which also had an inward curved rear window) and then in 72 the Gran Sedan was added even though it was not a sedan and was a 4 door hardtop and then we get to 75 when we had a B Body Fury and a C Body Gran Fury. Sometimes I think that someone in the Plymouth division wanted to confuse the crap out of people with these changes but Plymouth was not alone as Ford came out with the Pillared hardtop for their cars with B pillars but frameless windows, which some auto companies like Subaru use today.

 

[Davea Lux]

PH23 cars had more performance options with the base order packages and the better roof line on the 70-71 models. If you had a creative dealer, however most of the performance options could also be had on the PH29. The main difference other than the roof line was that the PH29 series was supposed to appeal to the higher end buyer. I do not think the paisley top was much of an incentive to any buyer.

Dave

 

[commando1]

At least it was an era where you could order a 2 dr. hdtp. in a choice of roofline.
Today? Hah. Pkg A, $4,000.00 or Pkg B, $7,000.00.

 

[300rag]

At least it was an era where you could order a 2 dr. hdtp. in a choice of roofline.
Today? Hah. Pkg A, $4,000.00 or Pkg B, $7,000.00.

Where are finding those bargain prices for the packages?

 

[commando1]

Where are finding those bargain prices for the packages?

We're talking Chrysler 200 pricing here.

 

[Wile E Coyote]

Can someone explain what the difference is between a PH23 (2 door hardtop) and a PH29 (2 door sports hardtop) is?

Specifically for 1972 - since I thought they got rid of the Sport Fury and replaced it with the Gran Fury.

Thanks,

DW

 

[shooter65]

PH23 (Hardtop) = Convex rear window and smaller c-pillar with more rake at the front of the c-piller.

PH29 = Concave rear window, larger c-piller, more "squared" quarter glass.

Although I love concave rear glass, IMO the c-pillar and quarter glass look stodgy on a PH29 2-door. It looks great on the 69 4-door PH43 though.

 

[shooter65]

Sorry, I didn't see that you were asking about a 72 in your original post. I can't find any pics of a 72 with concave rear glass, also there doesn't seem to be a difference in the quarter glass between the Gran Coupe and the Fury I or II 2-door.

Anybody have a pic of a 72 with concave rear glass?

 

[PH29Fury]

I do not think the paisley top was much of an incentive to any buyer.

Dave

Hey not to hijack the thread...can you expand on the paisley top, was it PH29 Only and part of spring special for 69, and what did that consist of?

Thanks

 

[ceebuddy]

The 29 body with the concave rear window roof on the 1969 to 1971 was basically the roof sheetmetal of the four-door hardtop mounted on top of a two-door body. Not sure, but I would say it outnumbered the sportier-looking 23 hardtop in sales. Perhaps this is due to the Fury being in competition with full-size Chevrolet models. The Chevrolet Caprice two-door had been around for some years marketed as something along the lines of a personal luxury coupe (rather than a sporty two-door as was offered in the Impala line) and it, too, had a more formal-looking roof line.

So I guess the 29 body/roof on the Fury two-door was generally perceived as being more prestigious than the 23 body/roof (not to mention that the 29-bodied Fury III cost $20 more according to the price list) at that time. It offering more rear-seat headroom might also have been a point in selling the 29 models.

Now to Analog Kid's question concerning the 1972 Furys:

Plymouth continued to offer two two-door hardtops for 1972. One was the regular two-door hardtop which was all restyled. Although referred to as "regular" it was the one style that was even more formal looking (at least to me): The leading edge of the C-pillar was almost vertical, the C-pillar pretty wide and the rear window size was unique compared to other body styles (a few inches larger than on the other hardtops). Since this styling required a quarter panel all of its own anyway it received "dual sculptured lines" in the front and rear of the rear wheel opening (love them or hate them).

The other body style did, again, use the roof sheetmetal of the four-door hardtop mounted on a two-door body. Consequently, it was again called the Formal roof, despite not looking that formal. The C-pillar was not as wide and raked more forward, plus the rear window was a few inches smaller. It used the overall design of the quarter panel of the four-door hardtop and that only had one sculptured line ahead of the rear wheel opening.

This image in the data book shows the differences and similarities pretty good:

17,545 of the 1972 Furys of the 29 variant were built versus 37,044 of the regular 23 body style two-door hardtops.

Note that from 1969 until 1972 the same system was kept: 23 bodies had their own roofline and were just referred to as hardtops while 29 bodies used the four-door hardtop roofline and were called formal hardtops. In 1973 there was no 29 body style anymore. The term "sports hardtop" was not used during that era.

 

[ceebuddy]

Hey not to hijack the thread...can you expand on the paisley top, was it PH29 Only and part of spring special for 69, and what did that consist of?

The Paisley Top was part of the 1970 and 1971 Fury Gran Coupe package, not offered on 1969 models.

In 1970 it was available in 21 body style only, which is a two-door sedan since it had a B-pillar. However, the roofline is idential to the 29 and 43 body.

383 engine, power steering, automatic transmission, A/C, tinted glass, power brakes, white sidewall tires, light package, remote left outside rearview mirror, 3-speed wipers, AM radio, deluxe wheel covers, vinyl roof, headlight delay w/ buzzer, and concealed headlights were all standard items.

In 1971 it was available in 29 and 43 body.

Note that the package was not restrained to one exterior color. Additionally, any regular vinyl roof could be had instead of the paisley roof and also the paisley interior could be swapped with a regular upholstery.

1970:

1971:

 

[PH29Fury]

Great info!....thank you!!!

 

[FURYGT]

I do not think the paisley top was much of an incentive to any buyer.

Dave[/QUOTE]

I have to disagree. This was the 1970's and the Gran Coupes with the Paisley tops were a huge success - Plymouth sold a large volume of these cars. Just look at how many you see for sale today. A high production number typically results in a good survival rate 4+ decades later.

 

[commando1]

I just realized the ph23 and ph29 two door hardtops had different rear quarters.

 

[shooter65]

Not sure, but I would say it outnumbered the sportier-looking 23 hardtop in sales.

FYI the Hardtop Coupe outsold the Formal Hardtop Coupe in all years from 1969 through 1972 with the possible exception of 1971. I can't find all production numbers for 1970 or 1971 but what I found for 70 confirm that the hardtop outsold the formal hardtop even without all production numbers accounted for.

 

[69monaco]

 

[69monaco]

 

[shooter65]

Thanks Martin,

Again, I like the HT Coupe better than the Formal HT Coupe in 2-doors. Just my personal preference.