Restoration Exasperation: the '70 SFGT basket case... and an S23
- Thread starter 70GTbasketcase
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bluefury361
Old Man with a Hat
Welcome to "The passion"..... 
70GTbasketcase
Member
Aww c'mon, throw me a bone here! LOL. I'm doing it the hard way not the easy way...
Having been part of the discussion regarding restoration of Dan's yellow V-code, it was clear that some of the membership objects to the "re-body" restoration route regardless of how badly the car was rotted -driving another car under the original fender tag would make this a lot cheaper and easier for me- BUT, much as I wanted to just drive another car under the original paint and options I'm going for the gusto and doing the "gifted body and panel guy" route.
Grandma would have said I was "mashuganah".
along with everything else I see "making" a replacement fender plate as "tag restoration" -like restoring the rest of the car. If the car is missing a piece you make another an put it on right? It isn't a fake piece its a restored piece.
-By my reckoning its a fake only if I'm adding codes to include features the car didn't have originally just to make it seem like a more valuable well optioned car.
It seems "kosher" to me to make a tag since that is a missing piece of the car that it originally had like any other but since I'm new to all this, you guys will have to tell me if its legit or if there's a flag on the play.
70GTbasketcase
Member
Definitely wasn't a gator grain top -but I will have to pull the bits left under the trim and examine them with a magnifier to see if it was boar grain or not.
70GTbasketcase
Member
Okay, so after the Carcheological exploration to dig up features, I began to fiddle around inside the car. I decided the best place to start was removal of all the vents, instrument panels, dashboard, ashtray, radio... everything in front. My Idea was to determine what had to be put aside for "restoration" and what had to be replaced. Turns out the answer was nearly EVERYTHING has to be replaced.
The speedo panel has a weird melt mark in the middle, and the mounting legs are all broken off. Gonna need another.
I had a heck of a time trying to remove the speedo unit -i eventually had to cut the unit out and, oh look - here's why:
looks like we had a meltdown!!
Main electrical harness wires were melted down pretty badly too and that explains the melt mark in the plastic panel: the harness was right behind that spot.
My GT was taken out of service because of some asshat was trying to install some accessory and hooked power directly to ground and fried the entire electrical system. A lot of dead-end autoparts store red wire was threaded into the car from the engine compartment. The ragged bare-wire and oxidized condition of the positive battery cable is also explained now too: it got red-hot! Got to replace the harness and the cable too now.
There's a guy on ebay selling an OEM harness for 750$... another guy selling a repop battery cable for $230. $980 for a bunch of wires, Yeh no problem, 'cause my pockets are as deep as Jay Leno's, right? Time to start bringing just peanut butter an jelly sandwiches for lunch at the job -no more quizzno's lunches for you boy.
I had a heck of a time trying to remove the speedo unit -i eventually had to cut the unit out and, oh look - here's why:
looks like we had a meltdown!!
Main electrical harness wires were melted down pretty badly too and that explains the melt mark in the plastic panel: the harness was right behind that spot.
My GT was taken out of service because of some asshat was trying to install some accessory and hooked power directly to ground and fried the entire electrical system. A lot of dead-end autoparts store red wire was threaded into the car from the engine compartment. The ragged bare-wire and oxidized condition of the positive battery cable is also explained now too: it got red-hot! Got to replace the harness and the cable too now.
There's a guy on ebay selling an OEM harness for 750$... another guy selling a repop battery cable for $230. $980 for a bunch of wires, Yeh no problem, 'cause my pockets are as deep as Jay Leno's, right? Time to start bringing just peanut butter an jelly sandwiches for lunch at the job -no more quizzno's lunches for you boy.
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CanCritter
Senior Member
70GTbasketcase
Member
it gets worse
it gets worse,,trust me
Your psychic powers are amazing CanCritter... it DID get worse! Waddaya know!
And heeerez how it played out:
The ashtray and receiver were rusty junk -tried cleaning up the ashtray but all that pitting made it pointless to try and re do the zinc plating.
the vents were toasted -and broken bolt ears were found on every piece of plastic trim in the car
The dash pad was about as bad as one can be
and the rusted out metal frame meant there would be no rebuilding this one
and as for my delux 3 speaker dash...
WAAAyyy-steddd!
Oh yeh, I pulled the heater fan too...
On the bright side, the radio was in good condition for rebuilding
2009 was a long summer -but it wasn't over yet -more surprises to come. On the edge of your seats yet?
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thrashingcows
Senior Member
Wow that blower motor is something else....never seen critter carnage like that before!
CanCritter
Senior Member
what did you have for a stereo?
...dash pad and extra speakers were the same as mine...wondering if that's part of the brougham package,or stereo package...just trying to sort out when and where those dashs with those speakers are seen
k sorted it re radio...
k sorted it re radio...
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70GTbasketcase
Member
As we saw while I was reverse engineering the fender tag, the radio in the car was the 10 watt AM-8 track unit- with the thumbwheels.
I don't know if my car had the brougham package because the broadcast sheet was long gone and so was the vinyl roof so if the brougham insignia was on it it got ripped off with the roof vinyl.
The car was well optioned so its possible it had the brougham package... but i have no idea what that option means in terms of interior features.
That dash looks great where did you have it done? Is it a fury pad or a 300? a polara? Still don't know much about what all the C's have in common with each other in terms of interchangeable parts.
CanCritter
Senior Member
actually restorer finished it up....l had the dumb luck of having a few extra parts come with the car from the previous owner and a mint dash pad was one of them...
my old one was kinda like yours but not quite as bad...theres new repos that are worth looking at that just came out
wondering if all 71s come out with the holes for the brougham nameplate or holes need to be added?,,,was thinking if theres holes on the roof for the nameplate may be a lead as to what it is..
my old one was kinda like yours but not quite as bad...theres new repos that are worth looking at that just came out
wondering if all 71s come out with the holes for the brougham nameplate or holes need to be added?,,,was thinking if theres holes on the roof for the nameplate may be a lead as to what it is..
The dashpad for your 1970 S23 is usually available from ABC Moparts but it appears to be temporarily out of stock. But I expect by the time you need one, one should be available:
abcmoparts.com
ABC Moparts - Dash Pads & Interior Parts for A-Body. B-Body, C-Body & E-Body
Also, I have seen one of the first reproduction 72-72 pads from Bob Baker, and it too looks very high quality. It turned out to be significantly harder to reproduce than the 70-71 pads according to Bob, due to the fairly large bump in front of the passenger. So it is a little more costly.
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fc7_plumcrazy
Old Man with a Hat
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As much as I really like you rebuilding the rusty hulk and bringing it back to life:
If you have an old rusty tag: Let a reproduction be produced to install while the original is in the safe. But once it is gone and you have no Broadcastheet: There is no way to have ALL the details that stood originally on your fender tag of your S23.
Faking a fender tag is not a restoration.
Carsten
Wollfen
Old Man with a Hat
Id like to weigh in on the fender tag discussion.
When it comes to creating a new tag, if you don't have the original one then simply make sure you document every piece of the car in its unrestored state as proof of that car coming in that color, what trim it has, with the type of interior and console etc. Then when it comes to parts that are missing, such as the wheels, go with the minimum standard that car would have come with in the package, whether that be GT or S23, it is going to come with one of the two road wheel options. Putting that on the tag doesn't make it fake, no one is going to argue that your GT did not come with road wheels. Lastly, if you ever decide to sell the car in the future make sure that all your previously held documentation of the car goes with it, or at least copies when it comes to photo's. That way the line of provenance is continued.
Always be up front and honest about the creation of the tag and you won't go wrong. Legally, the law couldn't give a rat's *** about the fendertag. When it comes to insurance purposes you can inform them of the steps taken to document the car in its original state before recreating the tag and in most cases they will be satisfied by this. To be honest, no insurance company I have ever used has asked for a copy of the tag when it comes to insuring the vehicle.
When it comes to creating a new tag, if you don't have the original one then simply make sure you document every piece of the car in its unrestored state as proof of that car coming in that color, what trim it has, with the type of interior and console etc. Then when it comes to parts that are missing, such as the wheels, go with the minimum standard that car would have come with in the package, whether that be GT or S23, it is going to come with one of the two road wheel options. Putting that on the tag doesn't make it fake, no one is going to argue that your GT did not come with road wheels. Lastly, if you ever decide to sell the car in the future make sure that all your previously held documentation of the car goes with it, or at least copies when it comes to photo's. That way the line of provenance is continued.
Always be up front and honest about the creation of the tag and you won't go wrong. Legally, the law couldn't give a rat's *** about the fendertag. When it comes to insurance purposes you can inform them of the steps taken to document the car in its original state before recreating the tag and in most cases they will be satisfied by this. To be honest, no insurance company I have ever used has asked for a copy of the tag when it comes to insuring the vehicle.
commando1
Old Man with a Hat
If tags are your things, sell the car and buy an A/B/E body. They love that crap.
70GTbasketcase
Member
Yeah, I think all the hubbub about tags being legit is my fault -I gave the impression that I wanted to do was make a tag with all the stuff I thought my GT ought to have -like chrome exhaust tips or brougham trim, whatever. Well, I had no intention of just putting all the features I wanted on a tag and calling it my car.
What I wanted to do was document the features my car came with and at some point use the options -and ONLY those options that I could document as present- to reproduce a tag to replace the one that went missing. Obviously it wouldn't be authentic and probably wouldn't be an exact match for the original because no one knows what the factory may have put on or left off relative to features.
SO What member Wollfen said was pretty much what I had in mind. Document the options of car in its un-restored state, no embellishing, reproduce a tag based on what is documented if thats the plan, and full disclosure if the car ever changes hands.
I was lucky in that the car appears to have been a project that was being saved for later and as a result it was never stripped for parts, just dragged around from spot to spot to sit and rust till somebody decided what to do with it. So it is highly likely that everything that was in the car now is everything it had since the beginning.
I'm not so much preoccupied with "tags" - in deference to member commando1 who thinks concern for tags is much a-doo about nothing, its just that it seems to be important to others in the hobby- the biz- etc., that if its a GT it has to have a pedigree or it must be a clone or a fake.
Although I see things Wollfen's way, Carsten stands firm on the grounds that if the tag is gone and the broadcast sheet is gone, then thats tough luck and the car is only whatever anyone is willing to believe about it. He's a purist and I understand that completely but that kinda sucks for me because if thats the case it seems like I might as well save myself time and money and just slap stripes on a 440 fastback console-with-buckets fury and call it a day!
What I wanted to do was document the features my car came with and at some point use the options -and ONLY those options that I could document as present- to reproduce a tag to replace the one that went missing. Obviously it wouldn't be authentic and probably wouldn't be an exact match for the original because no one knows what the factory may have put on or left off relative to features.
SO What member Wollfen said was pretty much what I had in mind. Document the options of car in its un-restored state, no embellishing, reproduce a tag based on what is documented if thats the plan, and full disclosure if the car ever changes hands.
I was lucky in that the car appears to have been a project that was being saved for later and as a result it was never stripped for parts, just dragged around from spot to spot to sit and rust till somebody decided what to do with it. So it is highly likely that everything that was in the car now is everything it had since the beginning.
I'm not so much preoccupied with "tags" - in deference to member commando1 who thinks concern for tags is much a-doo about nothing, its just that it seems to be important to others in the hobby- the biz- etc., that if its a GT it has to have a pedigree or it must be a clone or a fake.
Although I see things Wollfen's way, Carsten stands firm on the grounds that if the tag is gone and the broadcast sheet is gone, then thats tough luck and the car is only whatever anyone is willing to believe about it. He's a purist and I understand that completely but that kinda sucks for me because if thats the case it seems like I might as well save myself time and money and just slap stripes on a 440 fastback console-with-buckets fury and call it a day!
70GTbasketcase
Member
Buuut its waaay too late for that anyway. I'm already committed to the restoration of the "it looks like a GT but we'll never know now for sure" citron (or mystic) gold or green GT sitting in my friends yard lo these many years. Got more content to share -and more controversy I'm sure! 
If it were me in your situation, I would do as you said above and make a fender tag per your intentions as stated and let it ride. I never really care about the ultimate worth of a vehicle when I am done, as I just want a vehicle that is done to a high standard and one that I would really like and enjoy and I am convinced is real. Done nicely, I believe that if you decided to sell in the future, you would find a buyer for that special car that is very likely to keep climbing in value. Keep copies of what documentation you have and even a copy of this thread when it has run its course, and you won't be disappointed in your decision in my opinion. These are only cars and we only have one life on this planet and can't take any of them with us. Just enjoy your life while you are here and take care of yourself and be honest. Good luck!
CanCritter
Senior Member
found this...was the first time lve seen a number put to the S-23 in regards to how many were built...689 theyer sayin...no idea if its correct...
Plymouth Sport Fury S/23 Resources
On the outside the Fury S/23 featured hidden headlamps, two power bulges on the hood. Dual hood runner stripes in either white, black or burnt orange. And reflective "Strobe Stripes" on the side and rear deck lid. The S/23 designation appeared on the rear deck lid. Only 689 Sport Fury S/23's were produced in 1970.
Left: 1970 Plymouth Sport Fury S/23.
Plymouth Sport Fury S/23 Resources
On the outside the Fury S/23 featured hidden headlamps, two power bulges on the hood. Dual hood runner stripes in either white, black or burnt orange. And reflective "Strobe Stripes" on the side and rear deck lid. The S/23 designation appeared on the rear deck lid. Only 689 Sport Fury S/23's were produced in 1970.
Left: 1970 Plymouth Sport Fury S/23.
commando1
Old Man with a Hat
???
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