1967 Carter AFB - metering jets

[GJS]

Hi guys,
I know this is stupid and I should just nab a new carb but I wanted to ask; someone has DEFINATELY been inside my AFB and wreaked untold damage on the primary and secondary jets. . Like they used a butter knife to remove them and then once they totally stripped out, they just left em. .. chewed up.
I managed to get the secondaries out but they're pretty useless at this point and if I'm gonna use this carb they'll have to be replaced.
So, do I replace them and if so where do I get the proper sizes from?
I don't really care much at this point. Originality isn't my ultimate goal and all I have in the carb is a cheap rebuild kit and a little sweat but I don't really have 400 bucks to blow on a new unit either..... though ... who knows?
Lemme know your thoughts!
Thanks
GJS

 

[Yatzee]

Hi guys,
I know this is stupid and I should just nab a new carb but I wanted to ask; someone has DEFINATELY been inside my AFB and wreaked untold damage on the primary and secondary jets. . Like they used a butter knife to remove them and then once they totally stripped out, they just left em. .. chewed up.
I managed to get the secondaries out but they're pretty useless at this point and if I'm gonna use this carb they'll have to be replaced.
So, do I replace them and if so where do I get the proper sizes from?
I don't really care much at this point. Originality isn't my ultimate goal and all I have in the carb is a cheap rebuild kit and a little sweat but I don't really have 400 bucks to blow on a new unit either..... though ... who knows?
Lemme know your thoughts!
Thanks
GJS

The AFB is a very good carb and super easy to rebuild. They came in different designations depending on the model of car and engine size. I recently rebuilt one on a 65 Imperial 413 which was their top of the line carb. It has a last digit of "S" on the kit number which stood for "super". Using the same basic carb, Chrysler would upsize internal jets and orfices for their premium cars to give them better responce and overall power. Using the number tag, or numbers stamped on the body of the carb you currently have find a used one online or at a speed shop that consignes sales for other people and take what you need. You may even find a used one in better shape than the one you currently have. They are considered somewhat obsolete carbs so you should be able to get one fairly cheap.

 

[rags]

bein' frugal, i had used a tip cleaner set for a torch to find the size of the jet. if i wanted it richer i'd open it with the next larger size. too big? fill it with silver solder, drill it back out smaller, size it with the tip cleaners again. you might try heating around your primaries with a burnzomatic to see if they'll loosen. maybe hit 'em with a sharp straight chisel to reestablish a slot for a screwdriver. these carbs used are dirt cheap. picked up a matched pair at a garage sale two months ago for 40 a pop just to throw under the bench.

 

[70bigblockdodge]

I believe the same as Eddy jets, but don't take that as gospel.

 

[GJS]

The AFB is a very good carb and super easy to rebuild. They came in different designations depending on the model of car and engine size. I recently rebuilt one on a 65 Imperial 413 which was their top of the line carb. It has a last digit of "S" on the kit number which stood for "super". Using the same basic carb, Chrysler would upsize internal jets and orfices for their premium cars to give them better responce and overall power. Using the number tag, or numbers stamped on the body of the carb you currently have find a used one online or at a speed shop that consignes sales for other people and take what you need. You may even find a used one in better shape than the one you currently have. They are considered somewhat obsolete carbs so you should be able to get one fairly cheap.

bein' frugal, i had used a tip cleaner set for a torch to find the size of the jet. if i wanted it richer i'd open it with the next larger size. too big? fill it with silver solder, drill it back out smaller, size it with the tip cleaners again. you might try heating around your primaries with a burnzomatic to see if they'll loosen. maybe hit 'em with a sharp straight chisel to reestablish a slot for a screwdriver. these carbs used are dirt cheap. picked up a matched pair at a garage sale two months ago for 40 a pop just to throw under the bench.

Thanks fellas. I can get the jets out, for sure. I'm just wondering what the sizes are and if I can get them anywhere.
I love AFBs. They've been the best to me as far as rebuilding goes... and everything else on the carb looks great, if not a little gooey.

 

[Polara_500]

Give Scott Harms a buzz - he can likely tell you what you're supposed to have and maybe provide parts if necessary.. www.harmsauto.com

 

[CBODY67]

By observation, a LOT of Carters had the letter "S" after their 4-digit number, even non-AFBs. The AVS on my '70 Monaco "N" 383 was "4732S", for example. It might be folklore that Imperial carbs were a little different internally than non-Imperial carbs, but the service manuals' specs don't bear that out, unfortunately.

The "WPC News" (Walter P. Chrysler Club magazine) once detailed a story of some "special build" RB motors in order to follow them for customer complaint/accolades. They were "close balance" engines that had more optimum internal clearances and such. Their goal was the smoothest engines possible. That batch was built and tagged at the engine plant. Unfortunately, when they went to get the pallets of engines, they were gone, shipped to other assembly plants and unknown VIN vehicles.

The Imperial sales brochures mention all sorts of "special attention" that Imperials got that other Chryslers didn't. The special hides used for the leather upholstery. The "clean room" the TorqueFlites were built in, and similar. It might well be that, as with the 1980s rwd Imperials, that the best components were selected and sent to the Imperial plant rather than to a normal Chrysler plant. These would be component quality issues and not specification issues, though. As with 1960s T-birds and Lincolns, there also might have been a test track run for Imperials after assembly and before shipping them to the dealers. Drive it, put it on a lift to check for leaks and such, then "ship it".

For the 1964-66 cars, Chrysler pulled out all the stops to make Imperial a better car than Cadillac was, to build sales of Imperials as a result. So, the cars had the best available materials and obviously very good build quality, but increased sales volume didn't really happen, which is a shame.

I'll admit my exposure to Imperials was not what some might have experienced, but my '66 Chrysler & Imperial factory service manual just lists carb numbers and not what they were supposed to go on, which is where a parts book comes in handy.

Respectfully,
CBODY67

 

[GJS]

I believe the same as Eddy jets, but don't take that as gospel.

hmm... I should check into that. For whatever reason I didn't even think of it.

 

[GJS]

Carter AFB Jets & Metering Rods
Helpful little reference chart.
And yes, it appears that jets and rods are interchangeable between Eddy and Carter.
Nicely. I really didn't want to shelf my Carter!

 

[70bigblockdodge]

Carter AFB Jets & Metering Rods
Helpful little reference chart.
And yes, it appears that jets and rods are interchangeable between Eddy and Carter.
Nicely. I really didn't want to shelf my Carter!

The Carter metering rods are tapered or 3 step the Eddy's are 2 step if you are 100%stock I would use factory calibrated rods.

 

[Polara_500]

The Carter metering rods are tapered or 3 step the Eddy's are 2 step if you are 100%stock I would use factory calibrated rods.

I thought the AFB's were 2 step rods and the AVS's were the 3 step rod. I am by no means expert however........

 

[GJS]

The Carter metering rods are tapered or 3 step the Eddy's are 2 step if you are 100%stock I would use factory calibrated rods.

I thought the AFB's were 2 step rods and the AVS's were the 3 step rod. I am by no means expert however........

He's right, actually. My AFB rods are 3 step.
I'm pretty sure the jets interchange, though.

 

[CBODY67]

The AFB rods are 2-step rods, as are the ones in the OEM AFB on my '67 Newport 383. The AVS rods are 3-step rods, as are the ones in the OEM AVS on my '70 Monaco. I have a Carter Strip Kit for the AVS. I swapped the rods back and forth and could tell no performance difference. The AFB and AVS jets are supposed to be different, but with the same numbers stamped on them. It's been a while, but I think they look similar. I seem to recall that the approach angle to the hole is different?

As the AVS came online during the emissions era, I suspect the middle step on the rod is a gradual part-throttle enrichment from the cruise step rather than the power mixture being "on" of "off" as a power valve (i.e., Holley) would be.

In the middle 1970s, when I was using the Monaco for daily use, I kept a log book of mpg, gasoline used, and any changes to ignition base timing, carb changes, etc. I went a little leaner on cruise and could tell no significant difference in fuel economy. Tried a few thousands richer and no significant difference in mpg or throttle response. Went back to the OEM rods and left it.

In general, I believe the Edelbrock jetting is more "350 Chevy" than "383 Chrysler", more "universal" of sorts. The Edelbrock jets and rods do mimic the Chrysler sizings, so duplicating the rod/jet pairings should be doable with the Rod/Jet Kits. There used to be a 50 page owner's manual on dialing-in the fuel map on the Edelbrock AFBs.

I have a copy of it from a friend who had one. It can be a little involved, using a stop watch and vacuum gauge. That was when the Edelbrock AFB first appeared, so checking their current specs with the Chrysler service manual specs might be in order. The S-A Designs Rochester Carburetor book has a similar procedure for QJets.

One of the things the S-A Designs book puts forward is "metering area" rather than jet size numbers. Yields lots of numbers wit LOTS of places to the right of the decimal point, but this seems like a more accurate and detailed way to do things. This way, you can measure each of the steps on the metering rod rather than just the size in how it all affects the total metering performance.

One NEAT thing about the Carter Strip Kits (the AVS and Thermoquad) was that they included a small fold-out pamphlet of all of the carb numbers and their metering combinations. I've still got all of that stuff somewhere, but need to find it again.

In the "teaser" ads for the old S-A Designs Carter Carb book, it mentioned the "sophisticated idle fuel system" as a reason that AFBs would work better with wilder cams and such than "the other" carbs would. When that book came out, I got the first one I found. But, when I went looking for the "sophisticated idle system design", it was not there. Bummer! Some neat information, though, starting with the earliest Carter carburetors. And it rounded out my library with Carter, Holley, and Rochester carb books.

CBODY67

 

[GJS]

The AFB rods are 2-step rods, as are the ones in the OEM AFB on my '67 Newport 383. The AVS rods are 3-step rods, as are the ones in the OEM AVS on my '70 Monaco. I have a Carter Strip Kit for the AVS. I swapped the rods back and forth and could tell no performance difference. The AFB and AVS jets are supposed to be different, but with the same numbers stamped on them. It's been a while, but I think they look similar. I seem to recall that the approach angle to the hole is different?

As the AVS came online during the emissions era, I suspect the middle step on the rod is a gradual part-throttle enrichment from the cruise step rather than the power mixture being "on" of "off" as a power valve (i.e., Holley) would be.

In the middle 1970s, when I was using the Monaco for daily use, I kept a log book of mpg, gasoline used, and any changes to ignition base timing, carb changes, etc. I went a little leaner on cruise and could tell no significant difference in fuel economy. Tried a few thousands richer and no significant difference in mpg or throttle response. Went back to the OEM rods and left it.

In general, I believe the Edelbrock jetting is more "350 Chevy" than "383 Chrysler", more "universal" of sorts. The Edelbrock jets and rods do mimic the Chrysler sizings, so duplicating the rod/jet pairings should be doable with the Rod/Jet Kits. There used to be a 50 page owner's manual on dialing-in the fuel map on the Edelbrock AFBs.

I have a copy of it from a friend who had one. It can be a little involved, using a stop watch and vacuum gauge. That was when the Edelbrock AFB first appeared, so checking their current specs with the Chrysler service manual specs might be in order. The S-A Designs Rochester Carburetor book has a similar procedure for QJets.

One of the things the S-A Designs book puts forward is "metering area" rather than jet size numbers. Yields lots of numbers wit LOTS of places to the right of the decimal point, but this seems like a more accurate and detailed way to do things. This way, you can measure each of the steps on the metering rod rather than just the size in how it all affects the total metering performance.

One NEAT thing about the Carter Strip Kits (the AVS and Thermoquad) was that they included a small fold-out pamphlet of all of the carb numbers and their metering combinations. I've still got all of that stuff somewhere, but need to find it again.

In the "teaser" ads for the old S-A Designs Carter Carb book, it mentioned the "sophisticated idle fuel system" as a reason that AFBs would work better with wilder cams and such than "the other" carbs would. When that book came out, I got the first one I found. But, when I went looking for the "sophisticated idle system design", it was not there. Bummer! Some neat information, though, starting with the earliest Carter carburetors. And it rounded out my library with Carter, Holley, and Rochester carb books.

CBODY67

God DAMNED, man! Ok. I've got some stuff to figure out!

 

[GG-1]

God DAMNED, man! Ok. I've got some stuff to figure out!

I think Bev and GG probably have the same Carter AFB 4299S, both atop 1967 383 Commandos. I would highly recommend mikescarb.com if you're looking to replace or upgrade the jets, maybe get an ethanol resistant accelerator pump, etc.
I got a couple of sets of jets in the event I want to go higher.
The size of the stock jets(main) for our AFB 4299S carbs from the factory is .068
This was apparently for "fuel economy" and it was actually recommended soon after by Chrysler techs that they should be upgraded to at least .070
That's something you could play with when tuning.

I ordered two sets: one .070 and one .072.. which I plan to experiment with once I get the rest of my top end tuned and tweaked. They are cheap enough(those prices are for each pair), and you can order the same sizes that you just pried out. .068 for the mains and I forget the size for the secondaries but on the factory jets you took out the size/number should be stamped right on them(yes teeny-tiny stamps).

Mikes carbs are really great to deal with.. the photos attached are from my invoice/their website.
They also have a handy little technical section: Carburetor Parts Technical Help

I was told to always hold on to the original metering rods and springs if possible. And like the guys here have suggested.. you could always canibalize a 4299S donor carb for bits and bobs.

Alex

 

[GJS]

View attachment 133262
I think Bev and GG probably have the same Carter AFB 4299S, both atop 1967 383 Commandos. I would highly recommend mikescarb.com if you're looking to replace or upgrade the jets, maybe get an ethanol resistant accelerator pump, etc.
I got a couple of sets of jets in the event I want to go higher.
The size of the stock jets(main) for our AFB 4299S carbs from the factory is .068
This was apparently for "fuel economy" and it was actually recommended soon after by Chrysler techs that they should be upgraded to at least .070
That's something you could play with when tuning.

I ordered two sets: one .070 and one .072.. which I plan to experiment with once I get the rest of my top end tuned and tweaked. They are cheap enough(those prices are for each pair), and you can order the same sizes that you just pried out. .068 for the mains and I forget the size for the secondaries but on the factory jets you took out the size/number should be stamped right on them(yes teeny-tiny stamps).

Mikes carbs are really great to deal with.. the photos attached are from my invoice/their website.
They also have a handy little technical section: Carburetor Parts Technical Help

I was told to always hold on to the original metering rods and springs if possible. And like the guys here have suggested.. you could always canibalize a 4299S donor carb for bits and bobs.

Alex

Thanks man! I actually just found mike's yesterday!
I'll have to look at the carb number today but as there is nothing Magnum (or in Plymouth speak, Commando) about my 383, I'm thinking it'll not be an "S" numbered carb.
I'll dig in a lil more today!

 

[GG-1]

Thanks man! I actually just found mike's yesterday!
I'll have to look at the carb number today but as there is nothing Magnum (or in Plymouth speak, Commando) about my 383, I'm thinking it'll not be an "S" numbered carb.
I'll dig in a lil more today!

Right, silly me!
I hope you find what you need.

 

[GJS]

OOOOOP. You were correct, my friend!

View attachment 133262
I think Bev and GG probably have the same Carter AFB 4299S, both atop 1967 383 Commandos. I would highly recommend mikescarb.com if you're looking to replace or upgrade the jets, maybe get an ethanol resistant accelerator pump, etc.
I got a couple of sets of jets in the event I want to go higher.
The size of the stock jets(main) for our AFB 4299S carbs from the factory is .068
This was apparently for "fuel economy" and it was actually recommended soon after by Chrysler techs that they should be upgraded to at least .070
That's something you could play with when tuning.

I ordered two sets: one .070 and one .072.. which I plan to experiment with once I get the rest of my top end tuned and tweaked. They are cheap enough(those prices are for each pair), and you can order the same sizes that you just pried out. .068 for the mains and I forget the size for the secondaries but on the factory jets you took out the size/number should be stamped right on them(yes teeny-tiny stamps).

Mikes carbs are really great to deal with.. the photos attached are from my invoice/their website.
They also have a handy little technical section: Carburetor Parts Technical Help

I was told to always hold on to the original metering rods and springs if possible. And like the guys here have suggested.. you could always canibalize a 4299S donor carb for bits and bobs.

Alex

 

[CBODY67]

One other thing about the '67 AFB on my '67 Newport is that it has the "small" carb hole in the air cleaner base, unlike the "Holley" size, which is bigger. I believe it was standardized to the larger "hole" in 1968? So, unique in the top-side and on the bottom-size flange bolt area.

CBODY67

 

[GJS]

Welp, I'm not getting the primaries out and they are officially destroyed... I'm not interested in drilling at this point as my press is down and frankly, I'd rather have someone else do it if it's gonna get done so, while I'm ahead, I've cleaned everything up and I'm going to put the Carter back together and shelf it with it's build kit. One day, if/when I do a full rebuild, I'll get the jets drilled out and replaced.

For now, I've got a new Eddy on the way... all in the name of rolling this summer!